WI Hamidian Parlimentarianism, or Shiny Happy Ottoman Empire

I too, eagerly await this.... Should be interesting:)

No, Faeelin is right. What did we ever do for civilization? We found a land of pickled fish dishes, we left kebab and baklava. We found forced conversion and Hellenization, and left a messy polyglot cosmopolitan society where everyone only PRETENDED to live together peacefully for 600 years until they could be liberated by the Powers so everyone could freely express what they really thought about each other.
 

Faeelin

Banned
No, Faeelin is right. What did we ever do for civilization? We found a land of pickled fish dishes, we left kebab and baklava. We found forced conversion and Hellenization,

Hmm. In an ATL in 1900 with Byzantium still around, is it considered the prison of nations?

That made me chuckle, actually.
 
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A good subject.

First, a couple of important facts to consider:

1. The Armenians formed a majority nowhere. They were most significant in Van province, where they were under a third of the population. In the six eastern provinces where they were most prevalent, they comprised one sixth of the population.

2. The "reforms" that the powers were always trying to force on the Ottomans, and which they were always accusing the Ottomans of trying to avoid or sabotage, were actually designed to give Christians autonomy and/or rule over provinces where they were often a majority - in essence, severe DEcentralization, which was generally tantamount to surrender of sovereignty and a sure path to imperial dissolution. Ottoman reforms were generally aimed at strengthening the power of the state and its hold over its territory.

3. A very minor point, the Vilayet Law of 1858 replaced Eyalets with Vilayets. They both pretty much mean "province" - Eyalet more explicitly, Vilayet meaning essentially vali-ate (like "governorate") as "vali" meant "governor".

4. Another minor point, if you shorten "Abdul Hamid", it has to be to "Hamid", as "Abdul" by itself means "servant of the". For instance, many people called him "Baba Hamid".

5. Abdul Hamid had nothing against Armenians - the Minister of the Privy Purse, who managed the possessions of the Sultanate and Abdul Hamid's personal wealth, was an Armenian (Agop Pasha). He just had a problem with anarchist separatist terrorist organizations like the Hunchaks and Dashnaks.

Where the Russians generally went wrong with Balkan Slavs and Rumanians was in being incredibly arrogant with them and contolling. With the Armenians, they were pretty awful in general - Almost all Armenians preferred Ottoman rule to Russian (until 1915, and probably an interlude in 1894-5).

I think Hamidiyan constitutionalism could have worked if the Russians had not attacked or been beaten off. Most historians assume Abdul Hamid always intended to dispose of Parliament as soon as possible, but I don't think the evidence supports this. He seemed pretty willing to try it, but the war (and endless criticism of its conduct from Parliament) discredited the institution, and AHII considered the condition of the empire in 1878 so critical that it could only be saved through concentration of all decision-making into his firm and steady hands. He was probably right.

If not for the war, it would have been very difficult to get rid of Parliament, nor would there seem to be as much a reason for doing so.

I think the effects of this are along the lines you describe. The problem with autocracy is that it distorts the administration and causes corruption as loyalty becomes more important than honesty or competence (although AHII treasured the handful of men that were both), especially without oversight by a parliament.

I think the Ottomans would be very sensitive about Zionist immigration to Palestine - historically this was a big problem because the Zionists did not get along well with anyone else, especially the existing Sephardic community. But no doubt as you say the main Jewish centers in the empire like Salonika would be a draw, and might assimilate immigrants into the Sephardic/Levantine jewish culture.



POD: September 1876

Abdul Hamid II, the young Sultan of the Ottoman domains, receives a leader of one of the more moderate (i.e. autonamist, rather than pro-independence/pro-Russian) Armenian factions. The latter has a few names, dates, and plans for outright revolt in conjunction with an invasion from the north. A few days of slightly frantic planning leads to a reasonably effective and limited purge (as opposed to a general deportation) coupled with some political reforms and P.R. moves. Hovhanes Pasha ended his days as the governor of the Eyalet of Ezerum and Abdul Hamid himself would speak at his funeral.

The reforms in Armenia inspired similar changes being proposed for much of Rumelia, but everything would up on hold when the Russians blew thier stack and invaded anyway. The treatment of the Armenians, and to a lesser extent the Bulgarians, as 'traitors to Christiandom' by the invading forces did more to restore the reputation of the Sublime Porte in the eyes of thier subjects and the West than anything the Sultan could have put through in such a short period of time, and several militias were formed to defend against the Russians.

In the aftermath of this the Ottomans (having regained control of Bosnia and limited the Cyprot concessions to a few bases) settled down to formally set up the miltiethnic, multiconfessional constitutionalism of the Young Ottomans. There are no further autonamous areas (the memory of what happens what _those_ are set up being too fresh) but the parlimentary seats from each eyalet are subpartitioned by millet and the Eucemenical Patriach kets strongarmed into appointing autocephalous Bosnian and Bulgarian Archbishops. Meanwhile the militias are reorganized as 'The Sultan's Own' regiments and receive various perks from COnstantinople. In the coming decades most of Abdul Hamid's OTL reforms get through along with increasing democratization at the local level and stronger anti-corruption measures. Local potential leaders are encouraged to come to court and receive honors/positions, while Jewish immigration from Russia and other mathologically anti-semetic places is encouraged (Salonica, Metro Constantinople, and the new levantine town of Tel Aviv being the main points of settlement).

Abdul the Great (at least that is what the Armenians call him, at least one Turkish nationist tried to assassinate him) dies in his sleep in 1918 and is widely eulogized, although it is not known how well his successor will continue the balancing act between Germany and Britan that consumed Abdul-Hamid's forgien policy.

Now what?

For that matter, how is the wider world affected?

HTG
 

Ian the Admin

Administrator
Donor
I find it hard to believe that the Turks could ever handle something like democracy.

The Scots gave the world Adam Smith and scotch, and the Italians launched the Renaissance. All the Turks did was destroy a thriving cosmopolitan civilization.

What do I care what some bloodthirsty Turk thinks?

Trolling, bigotry, *and* a personal insult against a board member in so few sentences. An efficient way to get yourself kicked for a week.
 
A very minor point, the Vilayet Law of 1858 replaced Eyalets with Vilayets.

I realize you know more about Ottoman history than me, but every source I've ever come across says the Vilayet Law was in 1864, with the Tuna (Danube) Vilayet the 1st to be organized. If I'm wrong then I'm gonna have to rethink my TL a bit.

Where the Russians generally went wrong with Balkan Slavs and Rumanians was in being incredibly arrogant with them and contolling.

That I'm well aware off, they even managed to quarrel with Bulgaria in he 1880s, but it's a long way from the sort of treatment HTG suggests.
 
I realize you know more about Ottoman history than me, but every source I've ever come across says the Vilayet Law was in 1864, with the Tuna (Danube) Vilayet the 1st to be organized. If I'm wrong then I'm gonna have to rethink my TL a bit.



That I'm well aware off, they even managed to quarrel with Bulgaria in he 1880s, but it's a long way from the sort of treatment HTG suggests.

You're right - the foundation for the vilayet system was the Land Law of 1858, which changed the land tenure system, but the Vilayet Law wasn't formally introduced until 1864. However, it was in the works for a while, as an overhaul of the administration was one of the main drives of the Tanzimat, so you shouldn't treat it in any TL as springing from nothing in 1864.
 
But those areas were mostly rural- the only city was Constantinople- which really wasn't much of a city and was more ruins by that point.

Just a little detail: the city of Mistra on the last Byzantine part of Achaea was a large and prosperous city,
and after 1261, it became the second most important city of the Empire.

It was also the last centre of Byzantine scholarship, and it was the home of the Neoplatonist philosopher
George Gemistos Plethon, who lived here until his death in 1452.

This city fell to the Ottomans in 1460, seven years after the fall of Constantinople.
 
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Trolling, bigotry, *and* a personal insult against a board member in so few sentences. An efficient way to get yourself kicked for a week.

Did someone hack into Faeelin's account? Doesn't sound like him... or more so, sounds as if he was being thoroughly sarcastic, and that Abdul was in on the joke... :confused:
 
Just a little detail: the city of Mistra on the last Byzantine part of Achaea was a large and prosperous city,
and after 1261, it became the second most important city of the Empire.

It was also the last centre of Byzantine scholarship, and it was the home of the Neoplatonist philosopher
George Gemistos Plethon, who lived here until his death in 1452.

This city fell to the Ottomans in 1460, seven years after the fall of Constantinople.

Mistra was prosperous, but hardly "large". While it was the second most important city of the empire, that was because it was the ONLY other city of the empire.
 
I'd be intrested in seeing who reported him as Faelin is usually a defender of the Orient and something this out of nature for him is surely and wholely in jest. (and likely a play on that whole Middle East can't handle democracy junk thats going on these days)
 
You're right - the foundation for the vilayet system was the Land Law of 1858, which changed the land tenure system, but the Vilayet Law wasn't formally introduced until 1864. However, it was in the works for a while, as an overhaul of the administration was one of the main drives of the Tanzimat, so you shouldn't treat it in any TL as springing from nothing in 1864.

I know that Midhat Pasha and 2 others were charged by the sultan in 1860 to work on what would later become the Vilayet Law, which is before my PODs, but I know nothing about their work. I don't even know if the word "vilayet" existed before 1864. The only detailed account I've read is that of one Briton, written in the late 1860s, pro-Ottoman and very hostile to the Russians, Frenchmen and Bulgarians. He seems to think the vilayets were an ill-advised imitation of the French departments.

This is very frustrating to me because I use butterflies in an extreme way, so even though I know a reorganization of the empire is coming I can't follow the OTL one in its details. The best I can do is not mention it; I'm having a new one 24 years later anyway.
 

Sargon

Donor
Monthly Donor
Abdul and others are quite right, the remaining cities of the Empire were hardly large, and barely deserved the title. Mistra, as Ran says was quite important, but it was pretty small. Thessalonica did change hands a number of times in the latter period of the Byzantine period, but from 1402 to 1423 it was part of the Empire.

Still the fact remains that the Empire at the very end was not just restricted to Constantinople and the surrounding area.

Not that it did much good.

Not sure what happened to Faelin. Totally out of character - he's usually a nice enough fellow...I can only surmise it was joking sarcasm that very badly backfired.


Sargon

A Timeline of mine: The Roman Emperor Who Lost His Nose
 
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I thought Faeelin's comments were satire as well, making fun of certain views about the Ottoman Turks.
 
He probably thought they were ill-advised BECAUSE they were an imitation of French departments. They weren't actually an imitation so much as a model - I hardly think you can compare them.

What is the date of your POD and what is it? If it's before 1864 you can easily butterfly away the Vilayet Law, but perhaps not so much the general direction of the Tanzimat. Abdul Hamid was able to dispense with the liberal democratic elements of the program due to their being discredited by the war with Russia, but he actually accellerated the other reforms of the program, expecially education, and he hardly tinkered with the Vilayets at all. Any Sultan or Vizier who tried to veer too far will just be deposed.

I know that Midhat Pasha and 2 others were charged by the sultan in 1860 to work on what would later become the Vilayet Law, which is before my PODs, but I know nothing about their work. I don't even know if the word "vilayet" existed before 1864. The only detailed account I've read is that of one Briton, written in the late 1860s, pro-Ottoman and very hostile to the Russians, Frenchmen and Bulgarians. He seems to think the vilayets were an ill-advised imitation of the French departments.

This is very frustrating to me because I use butterflies in an extreme way, so even though I know a reorganization of the empire is coming I can't follow the OTL one in its details. The best I can do is not mention it; I'm having a new one 24 years later anyway.
 
What is the date of your POD and what is it? If it's before 1864 you can easily butterfly away the Vilayet Law, but perhaps not so much the general direction of the Tanzimat.

It's actually more than one POD, all in August and September 1862: Bismarck doesn't become Prussian prime minister, Frederick Ward doesn't die fighting the Taiping and Lee's plans for the Maryland Campaign don't make their way to McClellan. There's probably at least one more that I completely forgot and will have to dig through my many notes to deduce. Sloppy sloppy sloppy!

I don't want to get rid of the Tanzimat (a general trend), not even the reorganization of the provincial administration, just the vilayets (a particular detail), and only for 24 years. 22 years, now that I think about it, since nobody's going to care about it once the Balkan War starts. (As for what the Balkan war is, I can assure you that you won't like it.) After that I've got my own ideas.

Backfired? It was aimed at me and I thought it was very funny.

Should we petition Ian to unkick him then?
 
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