WI earlier Merchant Uboats?

Basils

Banned
T
Cargo subs like those could be used to smuggle weapons to Ireland.
If the Irish volunteer got weapons from Germany then maybe there could be a much bigger rising in 1916 in Ireland.
OTL there was an order to the volunteers to stand down from Eoin MacNeill of Irish volunteers.
This along with the ss aud shipping weapons or even troops could make for a more successful rising.
With the volunteers having better weapons a larger rising might take place and divert British troops from the western front.
Think a bigger Easter uprising could make a lot of trouble for the British. Maybe even fatally. Especially given the amount of Irish in the USA.
 

Riain

Banned
The high value and having ties to the USA are important. As ITTL Americans are making some money off of the CP. which may lead the Americans to be less anxious to enter into WWI. Maybe a few weeks but even so that is something to consider

What happened on the battlefield between the US DoW and say mid May? Perhaps the French 'mutiny' is the most important, and once reluctant Americans see that start they might be even more reluctant.
 

Basils

Banned
What happened on the battlefield between the US DoW and say mid May? Perhaps the French 'mutiny' is the most important, and once reluctant Americans see that start they might be even more reluctant.
Could be. Not sure if it was that close run, but delaying the entrance of the USA even by a dew weeks could be a blow to moral especially if the troops aren’t there in sufficient numbers until summer of year 18
Then there is money. Would the entente be ok financially still with a delay in US loans?
 

Riain

Banned
Could be. Not sure if it was that close run, but delaying the entrance of the USA even by a dew weeks could be a blow to moral especially if the troops aren’t there in sufficient numbers until summer of year 18
Then there is money. Would the entente be ok financially still with a delay in US loans?

The two plying their trade in 1916 won't be enough but the following 6 from early 1917 might be. Deutschland did 2 trips in 6 months and was about to do a 3rd in Jan 17, so that rate of effort from 6 uboats gets 24 trips a year, or one every 2 weeks. That might be enough to turn the tide.
 

Basils

Banned
The two plying their trade in 1916 won't be enough but the following 6 from early 1917 might be. Deutschland did 2 trips in 6 months and was about to do a 3rd in Jan 17, so that rate of effort from 6 uboats gets 24 trips a year, or one every 2 weeks. That might be enough to turn the tide.
It might be. Plus some nickel and rubber could help the German war effort. As by 16 they were rubbing out of many materials.
I am a believer that the spring offensive was a close call for the entente fans even a small difference could have changed the results
 

Riain

Banned
It might be. Plus some nickel and rubber could help the German war effort. As by 16 they were rubbing out of many materials.
I am a believer that the spring offensive was a close call for the entente fans even a small difference could have changed the results

I think operation George is a better bet than Michael, the challenge is to guide the war to that point. There's not much in it, so the merchant uboats might be enough.
 

Basils

Banned
I think operation George is a better bet than Michael, the challenge is to guide the war to that point. There's not much in it, so the merchant uboats might be enough.
Agreed. I think it was close enough that the boats keeping USW off the table longer would be enough to tilt the balance. Also might make the HSF more aggressive and shift more British ship yards into making warships as opposed to merchant ships.
 
WI the need and initial order for Deutschland and Bremen were bought forward by 6 months? Duetschland making its maiden voyage in December 1915 and Bremen in March 1916.
Assuming sailing 6 months earlier butterflies the Bremen being sunk on her maiden voyage, what difference could 2 merchant uboats opening trade with the US in 1916 make?
Alright, I’ll play.

I assume you mean Bremen not being sunk on her initial voyage, correct?

For starters the ordering of two merchant submarines in April 1915 would be highly speculative. This was a month before the Lusitania was sunk, and in the first phase of Unrestricted Submarine Warfare. On the one hand the ability of the Submarine to pass through hostile waters is being well demonstrated, but on the other the reception of the US to this form of trade is hard to predict. Additionally with a small number of u-boats in service and the desire to sink as much tonnage as possible, DOR faces the real possibility of the boats they have ordered being taken over by the German Navy. IOTL these risks were minimized with the first USW campaign being cancelled in September 1915, a month before the Deutschland’s were ordered, earning goodwill in the US and reducing the likelihood of the loss on investment.

However, assuming they are ordered 6 months ahead of schedule, the Deutschland first sails in late December 1915, arrives in the US early January, and remains there until early February. It then crosses back to Bremerhaven by late the same month. She would sail again in late April and return in early June.

IOTL her first crossing took 9 days(with an additional week waiting at Heligoland to try and throw off British patrols) but the return journey took 22, with about 59 days between returning and putting out again. She was in Baltimore for 22 days on her first trip and in New London for 21 on her second (though she was supposed to leave after 17, but a collision with a tug delayed her). It seems a total turn around of about 110 days from beginning of voyage to beginning of voyage seems about right. That just about lines up with her planned but cancelled third trip in January 1917.

So, by that schedule she would sail again in Early August and late November. That is two more trips for her in 1916 than she managed IOTL.

Bremen, assuming she does not sink, would sail in March 1916, as well as June and October. So that is another 3 successful trips over OTL.

The other 6 would be ordered in late May. From date of order Deutschland took 8 months to be ready for first voyage while Bremen took about 10 and a half. That more or less lines up with the order to commission dates of the U-151 class IOTL so I am pretty confident using the OTL commission dates and moving them back 6 months. That would mean that the first of the new boats would be available to sail in January 1917. Then 1 in Feb, 2 in March, 1 in April and 1 in May.

So, for 1916 we have only the two originals to consider. If all 7 voyages listed above were completed and each voyage carried 780 tons of cargo (as long as at least 250 tons of that is rubber that can be stored outside the pressure hull) then in 1916 that is 5,460 tons of extra material. About the size carried by one standard merchant ship of the late war. Of this at least 1,750 tons would be rubber though probably more, with the remainder most likely being a mix of Nickel, Tin, and Precious metals.

However, there are two other things to consider.

First, even if Bremen makes it through her maiden voyage that does not make the crossing safe. Her exact cause of loss is still unknown but it is fairly certain that she had torpedoes fired at her by a British sub at one point and may have been chased by a British Cruiser Squadron. To say nothing of mines and hazards. The last time I did this calculation I reduced the OTL loss rate of one loss in three voyages to one loss per six voyages due to a limited sample size. It still seems pretty reasonable to me. If we apply that here, and assume it happens at the end of the 6 and not in the middle then we can assume that Bremen will not make it home from her voyage in October. This reduces the total to 4,680 tons (at least 1500 rubber).

Secondly, the U-boat campaign began to get sharper from about June 1916 onward. This was largely due to Jutland convincing German naval leadership that the blockade could not be broken by fleet action, encouraging more vigorous use of U-boats. In November 1916 this culminated in the voyage of U-53 which sunk a number of Entente ships immediately outside of American territorial waters. This raised tensions between Germany and the US, even though Rose, the U-boat commander had been careful to try and avoid loss of life and follow cruiser rules as close as possible in a u-boat. The sharpened U-boat campaign progressively led to relations reaching such a low that the January 1917 voyage of Deutschland was cancelled. IOTL Deutschland sailed not long after U-53’s work off the US coast. ITTL it would be nearly 2 months. If the extra time is enough for DOR to decide that a further trip is not viable then the last Deutschland trip in late November could also be cancelled. Though that is not assured. If it is that drops the total still further to 3900 (1250 rubber).

On the whole I think it is wildly optimistic to say that this increased U-boat trade would be enough to change the calculus of either Germany in regards to USW or the US in their response to German U-boat activity (and eventual DOW). The amount involved is also not going to make a drastic difference to the outcome of the war. Germany did not lose due to a lack of strategic materials. It lost due to a lack of basic materials. The U-boats cannot provide those in quantity.
 
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Riain

Banned
Alright, I’ll play.

I assume you mean Bremen not being sunk on her initial voyage, correct?

For starters the ordering of two merchant submarines in April 1915 would be highly speculative. This was a month before the Lusitania was sunk, and in the first phase of Unrestricted Submarine Warfare. On the one hand the ability of the Submarine to pass through hostile waters is being well demonstrated, but on the other the reception of the US to this form of trade is hard to predict. Additionally with a small number of u-boats in service and the desire to sink as much tonnage as possible, DOR faces the real possibility of the boats they have ordered being taken over by the German Navy. IOTL these risks were minimized with the first USW campaign being cancelled in September 1915, a month before the Deutschland’s were ordered, earning goodwill in the US and reducing the likelihood of the loss on investment.

However, assuming they are ordered 6 months ahead of schedule, the Deutschland first sails in late December 1915, arrives in the US early January, and remains there until early February. It then crosses back to Bremerhaven by late the same month. She would sail again in late April and return in early June.

IOTL her first crossing took 9 days(with an additional week waiting at Heligoland to try and throw off British patrols) but the return journey took 22, with about 59 days between returning and putting out again. She was in Baltimore for 22 days on her first trip and in New London for 21 on her second (though she was supposed to leave after 17, but a collision with a tug delayed her). It seems a total turn around of about 110 days from beginning of voyage to beginning of voyage seems about right. That just about lines up with her planned but cancelled third trip in January 1917.

So, by that schedule she would sail again in Early August and late November. That is two more trips for her in 1916 than she managed IOTL.

Bremen, assuming she does not sink, would sail in March 1916, as well as June and October. So that is another 3 successful trips over OTL.

The other 6 would be ordered in late May. From date of order Deutschland took 8 months to be ready for first voyage while Bremen took about 10 and a half. That more or less lines up with the order to commission dates of the U-151 class IOTL so I am pretty confident using the OTL commission dates and moving them back 6 months. That would mean that the first of the new boats would be available to sail in January 1917. Then 1 in Feb, 2 in March, 1 in April and 1 in May.

So, for 1916 we have only the two originals to consider. If all 7 voyages listed above were completed and each voyage carried 780 tons of cargo (as long as at least 250 tons of that is rubber that can be stored outside the pressure hull) then in 1916 that is 5,460 tons of extra material. About the size carried by one standard merchant ship of the late war. Of this at least 1,750 tons would be rubber though probably more, with the remainder most likely being a mix of Nickel, Tin, and Precious metals.

However, there are two other things to consider.

First, even if Bremen makes it through her maiden voyage that does not make the crossing safe. Her exact cause of loss is still unknown but it is fairly certain that she had torpedoes fired at her by a British sub at one point and may have been chased by a British Cruiser Squadron. To say nothing of mines and hazards. The last time I did this calculation I reduced the OTL loss rate of one loss in three voyages to one loss per six voyages due to a limited sample size. It still seems pretty reasonable to me. If we apply that here, and assume it happens at the end of the 6 and not in the middle then we can assume that Bremen will not make it home from her voyage in October. This reduces the total to 4,680 tons (at least 1500 rubber).

Secondly, the U-boat campaign began to get sharper from about June 1916 onward. This was largely due to Jutland convincing German naval leadership that the blockade could not be broken by fleet action, encouraging more vigorous use of U-boats. In November 1916 this culminated in the voyage of U-53 which sunk a number of Entente ships immediately outside of American territorial waters. This raised tensions between Germany and the US, even though Rose, the U-boat commander had been careful to try and avoid loss of life and follow cruiser rules as close as possible in a u-boat. The sharpened U-boat campaign progressively led to relations reaching such a low that the January 1917 voyage of Deutschland was cancelled. IOTL Deutschland sailed not long after U-53’s work off the US coast. ITTL it would be nearly 2 months. If the extra time is enough for DOR to decide that a further trip is not viable then the last Deutschland trip in late November could also be cancelled. Though that is not assured. If it is that drops the total still further to 3900 (1250 rubber).

On the whole I think it is wildly optimistic to say that this increased U-boat trade would be enough to change the calculus of either Germany in regards to USW or the US in their response to German U-boat activity (and eventual DOW). The amount involved is also not going to make a drastic difference to the outcome of the war. Germany did not lose due to a lack of strategic materials. It lost due to a lack of basic materials. The U-boats cannot provide those in quantity.

Gold baby, gold!

Yes it is speculative to start these merchant uboats 6 months early, however the resources required to build them isn't huge and the blockade did exist at the time so it's not too outlandish for someone to have the thought earlier than OTL.

There were 8 big boats built, 3 were lost, how many voyages did these make? That's probably a better view of the loss rate for these big boats than 1 loss from 3 merchant voyages, which might be an anomaly over the entire class' performance.

U53 did sour relations but that was in October, a couple of months after Jutland and after Rose learned the Bremen was lost. Would the multiple voyages of 2 merchant uboat butterfly this mission entirely? If not would the multiple voyages and money made from them alter the US view?

You're right about Germany lacking regular materials, but what was the shortage ratio of regular to strategic materials?

I don't think the merchant uboats are a war winner, but wonder about their secondary effects.
 
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