WI: Byzantine Gunpowder instead of Greek Fire
- Thread starter Vasilas
- Start date
Donald Reaver
Donor
While early grenades may not create a lot of damage to the enemy, they should be sufficient to panic horses.
Roman bronze was perfectly capable of being used for both muskets and cannon (though expensively) and firelighting and carrying technology long predates recorded history. If they could make gunpowder they could make both muskets and cannon. The barrier is not technological. On the other hand the technology is so simple that it transfers fast. If the Byzantines have gunpowder and use it in firearms then quickly so do their enemies. You only have to look at how fast the Japanese took on Portuguese firearm technology.
But more than likely, the Byzantines would use it in its simplest form for a long time before rockets and cannons. They would use it in the form of grenade slingers and primitive naval attack. It is never the discoverer that benefits most, it is always the guy who improves upon it, in this case, likely one of the Muslim states constantly fighting against them, or, more interestingly, the Bulgars.
Once more, I ask, if the Arab states discover how to use gunpowder, then how will this effect Iberia? Will Al-Andalus stay for longer or even to modern times?
Once more, I ask, if the Arab states discover how to use gunpowder, then how will this effect Iberia? Will Al-Andalus stay for longer or even to modern times?
GdwnsnHo
Banned
That assumes that it makes it to the Arab states. And if it makes it to the Arab states, who is to say that the Spanish don't also get access to it?
If the Arabs do and the Spanish don't, then it could slow, or if Al-Andalus gets support from N.Africa in terms of manpower, reverse it.
If the Spanish do and the Arabs don't - game over for Al-Andalus.
If both, depends who figures out how to use it better. You have to remember, they knew about gunpowder grenades already, so they'd need to seriously innovate to keep their edge if the Spanish also get access to gunpowder. If they don't, then the same result happens, but with guns tearing down most fortresses in Al-Andalus.
I could see early no Greek Fire actually be much more effective in battles then gunpowder. It will take at least a century to be able to handle gunpowder units so it all depends on the exact years. Also, it would be much easier for the Arabs to get how to make gunpowder then Greek Fire, which would be very bad for the Byzantines. When it finaly comes into its own it would be hugely powerful weapon of course, but when that happens I have no idea.
trajen777
Banned
I agree that the Grenade would be the first use --- (see Turtledoves book agent of Byz) and would be very effective in INf warfare, defending forts (towns), attacking towns or forts, and naval warfare. On the Naval side i think that the Byz use of the fire tubes on ships (sophisticated) would show that the eventual adaption of cannon and hand musket (infantry) would be a fairly easy adaption. Grenades would grow in power each generation.
As to the secracy i think that they did a very effective job of keeping Greek Fire hidden.
Now as to it helping in specific changing of history : if t Yarmuck this could have blew holes in the infantry line (at first Arab army was Mobile Infantry with little Calvary forces) for exploitation. At Manzikert perhaps when the 2nd line did not come to their aide it would have kept the 1st line from being surrounded. The 4th crusade would have been defeated. Byz would never have lost control of the sea.
As to the secracy i think that they did a very effective job of keeping Greek Fire hidden.
Now as to it helping in specific changing of history : if t Yarmuck this could have blew holes in the infantry line (at first Arab army was Mobile Infantry with little Calvary forces) for exploitation. At Manzikert perhaps when the 2nd line did not come to their aide it would have kept the 1st line from being surrounded. The 4th crusade would have been defeated. Byz would never have lost control of the sea.
What might make for a good scenario is to use gunpowder along with Greek Fire. It wouldn't be that hard to make grenades,rockets,fire arrows and primitive hand cannons. They had the metallurgy for decent artillery,ceramic/stone/glass grenades were known and rockets could be made with bamboo or paper. And I think the Byzantines used gunpowder. What would be needed is for them to discover it early and experiment with ways to use it. Destructively of course.
Penny for The Guy
Banned
Don't Disturb Your Enemy...
All of this presumes ole Fuzzy Wuzzy out there is too dumb to catch on.
The first several times you lob a grenade at a packed mass, or toss a barrel at the enemy HQ (shot distances back then) yes, you will have shock and awe like never before. However...
Human beings are notoriously adaptable, and following a few unsuccessful engagements, Fuzzy Wuzzy will find some generals who develop tactics to deal with this. (Disperse and Regroup, for example)
Even if the secret is kept, the Gunpowder Empire (Shades of Lord Kalvin) will find it is far easier to take ground than to keep it.
I dare say, some of the tacticians here could think of a dozen ways to deal with a primitive gunpowder technical addition to warfare.
All of this presumes ole Fuzzy Wuzzy out there is too dumb to catch on.
The first several times you lob a grenade at a packed mass, or toss a barrel at the enemy HQ (shot distances back then) yes, you will have shock and awe like never before. However...
Human beings are notoriously adaptable, and following a few unsuccessful engagements, Fuzzy Wuzzy will find some generals who develop tactics to deal with this. (Disperse and Regroup, for example)
Even if the secret is kept, the Gunpowder Empire (Shades of Lord Kalvin) will find it is far easier to take ground than to keep it.
I dare say, some of the tacticians here could think of a dozen ways to deal with a primitive gunpowder technical addition to warfare.
Saphroneth
Banned
The duology of books "The Reformer" and "The Tyrant" cover grenades and other early black powder weapons in a very Roman setting.
Notably, the grenades are not a win button! But a large catapult throwing barrels of gunpowder is an enormously potent weapon.
Notably, the grenades are not a win button! But a large catapult throwing barrels of gunpowder is an enormously potent weapon.
Catapults throwing iron spheres packed with black powder. Get the fuse length right and you have air-burst bombs, with shrapnel.
Create a double walled sphere, fill the inner with powder and the outer with lead balls and you have a catapult (or ballista) launched cannister shell.
As for sieges, dig under the walls, use barrels of powder and a long fuse. One breached wall.
Early artillery mortars are an iron mortar with a small cavity in the bottom for the powder with a touch hole for the fuse. The seal is created by the ball. It is probably the easiest gunpowder artillery piece achievable for the metallurgy and tech base available to the Byzantines.
As for grenades, for extra range use sling-staffs with grenadiers operating in teams of two. One lights the grenade, the other hurls it with the staff.
Create a double walled sphere, fill the inner with powder and the outer with lead balls and you have a catapult (or ballista) launched cannister shell.
As for sieges, dig under the walls, use barrels of powder and a long fuse. One breached wall.
Early artillery mortars are an iron mortar with a small cavity in the bottom for the powder with a touch hole for the fuse. The seal is created by the ball. It is probably the easiest gunpowder artillery piece achievable for the metallurgy and tech base available to the Byzantines.
As for grenades, for extra range use sling-staffs with grenadiers operating in teams of two. One lights the grenade, the other hurls it with the staff.