WI: Byzantine Gunpowder instead of Greek Fire

[Vasilas]

What if Kallinikos of Heliopolis (assuming he actually existed of course), discovered gunpowder instead of Greek Fire? Is this even within the realm of possibility?

Further, what could this mean for the Roman Empire and the world? Is it necessary that Greek fire (or a similar incendiary) be discovered to fend of the Arab sieges to Constantinople? And could the Romans keep this formula a secret for at least a couple of centuries (as they did with Greek fire, for much longer)? I strongly suspect the dire conditions Romania found itself in at the late seventh century would lead to weaponization in some form or the other, but can it tip the scales against the Caliphate either then or in the next two centuries?

Also, what may happen if the Empire does ultimately fall due to lack of Greek fire (or some other butterfly), and the Caliphate gets the material?

Note: You can replace Kallinikos with alchemist's guild at Constantinople/Alexandria/wherever.
Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire#History

 

[Salamander]

I personally think that the discovery of gunpowder, like that of steel, has occurred independently many times, in many places. The main problem being that the discoverer rarely survived making the discovery. After all, grinding various substances (say, charcoal, brimstone and saltpetre) into powder, together, in a mortar with a pestle could result in an explosion that removes an appendage (hand) or worse.

So, if a resourceful Byzantine alchemist should happen to have an apprentice to do all the annoying drudge work (grinding said substances), that alchemist may be far enough away to avoid the blast and to have his (or her) eureka moment. Which is probably what happened in China all those years ago.

Besides, I've always thought early artillery mortars bear an uncanny resemblance to those used by chemists and cooks.

 

[Mixxer5]

We've had this topic already. Inventing gunpowder would be possible even during classical era- it wasn't something incredibly complex to create. Problem is- how to utilize that? You could make mines (if it blew my hand, it could blew someone else's too!), but guns? You would have to invent metallurgy as well, get right idea (Chinese were using gunpowder for fireworks for some time), get funding (ok, not so hard, when you present what this stuff can do) and still it's not so simple.

And cannons? These would take much longer to invent...

 

[Keb]

And cannons? These would take much longer to invent...

There's always rockets. While they'd make poor artillery in the traditional European sense (breaching fortifications), they'd be useful in pitched battles (or during sieges, mounted on the walls). While imprecise, you could shower an area with explosives, much in the same way the Koreans used them (or, in a more modern example, Soviet Katyushas during WWII).

The evolution to single-shot man-portable variants would probably happen soon afterwards ... and, eventually, someone will try to make a hand-cannon or construct something durable enough to launch a harder projectile to crack open a castle or city.

It would take some time to work that out, though, and I'm not entirely sure early rocketry would be as immediately useful as Greek Fire siphons proved to be.

 

[Mixxer5]

There's always rockets. While they'd make poor artillery in the traditional European sense (breaching fortifications), they'd be useful in pitched battles (or during sieges, mounted on the walls). While imprecise, you could shower an area with explosives, much in the same way the Koreans used them (or, in a more modern example, Soviet Katyushas during WWII).

The evolution to single-shot man-portable variants would probably happen soon afterwards ... and, eventually, someone will try to make a hand-cannon or construct something durable enough to launch a harder projectile to crack open a castle or city.

It would take some time to work that out, though, and I'm not entirely sure early rocketry would be as immediately useful as Greek Fire siphons proved to be.

By all means, I'm sure that gunpowder would be utilized in many ways. But it would still take a very long time to make it standard on the battlefield. And it's rather useless for any other purposes than killing other people.

 

[GdwnsnHo]

The arab world first used gunpowder for primitive grenades - which I can only see as a terrifying addition to Roman forces. But the best application I can think of is (if we can still have greek fire) a catapult throws a barrel of gunpowder, that on impact, mixes with some ready-to-ignite Greek Fire, and BOOM

However, if the alchemist in question notices the (part broken) pestle embedded in the remnants of the ceiling - they could have brainwave of the cannon - whether it is better than a ballista is debatable.

Though, a Roman rocket barrage is a terrifying image. Right up there with Roman mines on the far side of the Rhine.

 

[K-R]

The arab world first used gunpowder for primitive grenades - which I can only see as a terrifying addition to Roman forces.

I just remembered the Syrian grenade slingers in Eric Flint's Belisarius series. That might actually work. And yes, I imagine it would be terrifying.

 

[GdwnsnHo]

I just remembered the Syrian grenade slingers in Eric Flint's Belisarius series. That might actually work. And yes, I imagine it would be terrifying.

Grenade.

Slingers.

Whelp, that makes OTL Grenadiers look like short-ranged wusses. Giant men, with Grenades and good aim with a sling. "Oh, wait, you didn't want half of your elite units blown up, sorry about that"

I was also toying with the idea of horsemen being able to drop grenades behind them, light cavalry dropping or throwing grenades into enemy heavy cavalry would wreck the enemies horses.

 

[Sir Chaos]

Grenade.

Slingers.

Whelp, that makes OTL Grenadiers look like short-ranged wusses. Giant men, with Grenades and good aim with a sling. "Oh, wait, you didn't want half of your elite units blown up, sorry about that"

I was also toying with the idea of horsemen being able to drop grenades behind them, light cavalry dropping or throwing grenades into enemy heavy cavalry would wreck the enemies horses.

In addition to the grenade slingers as per the Belisarius series (and yes, they ARE terrifying and devastating) I was thinking - what if Roman heavy infantry carried a grenade or two instead of the pilum, and used it the same way: to soften up the enemy infantry before either charging them, or them charging the Romans?

 

[K-R]

In addition to the grenade slingers as per the Belisarius series (and yes, they ARE terrifying and devastating) I was thinking - what if Roman heavy infantry carried a grenade or two instead of the pilum, and used it the same way: to soften up the enemy infantry before either charging them, or them charging the Romans?

They would need a way to light them up somewhat reliably and quickly.

 

[GdwnsnHo]

They would need a way to light them up somewhat reliably and quickly.

Yeah, this would be a problem until someone invented a flintlock, or pin-ignited grenade.

Or a friction-lit grenade - they use those in paintball for grenades - strong fuse and sandpaper, lights up easily, and then throw.

In a sling, if you don't want to light them as a match-lock style, you could use this same technique by having the grenade hook into part of the sling, so that when it leaves the sling, it rips sandpaper across the fuse. The only issue with that is that you can't "cook" the grenade.

 

[Vasilas]

Thanks for the thoughts! Indeed, grenades were exactly the thing I was thinking of, although rockets may be a possibility (blame Green Antarctica for putting that idea in my head).

This is unlikely to be of much use in defending Constantinople, but there were earlier Byzantine flamethrowers which might just do the trick (probably too early for Arabs to figure that one out) and plus the walls of Theodosius are hard enough to breach. Catapulting barrels into the enemy lines is also a good idea.

It would be perhaps more useful in offense, in East Anatolia and the like. For instance, if the Romans can besiege Melitene or the like, can't they just use barrels of gunpowder with long wicks to blow the walls apart, and avoid lengthy sieges? Shock and awe may work very well in that stage. Of course, they'd need rockets and grenadiers to get much benefit out of it in actual combat.

Another possibility is that the Romans plant explosives throughout Carthage and keep in a suicide unit to blow the city up after it falls (the proposed POD preceding the fall of the Exarchate of Africa). It can also be used in situations like the Sack of Damietta to destroy the city up as they leave. Could be fairly catastrophic.

 

[GdwnsnHo]

Thanks for the thoughts! Indeed, grenades were exactly the thing I was thinking of, although rockets may be a possibility (blame Green Antarctica for putting that idea in my head).

This is unlikely to be of much use in defending Constantinople, but there were earlier Byzantine flamethrowers which might just do the trick (probably too early for Arabs to figure that one out) and plus the walls of Theodosius are hard enough to breach. Catapulting barrels into the enemy lines is also a good idea.

It would be perhaps more useful in offense, in East Anatolia and the like. For instance, if the Romans can besiege Melitene or the like, can't they just use barrels of gunpowder with long wicks to blow the walls apart, and avoid lengthy sieges? Shock and awe may work very well in that stage. Of course, they'd need rockets and grenadiers to get much benefit out of it in actual combat.

Another possibility is that the Romans plant explosives throughout Carthage and keep in a suicide unit to blow the city up after it falls (the proposed POD preceding the fall of the Exarchate of Africa). It can also be used in situations like the Sack of Damietta to destroy the city up as they leave. Could be fairly catastrophic.

Personally, my favorite use would be to bait their enemies to a pre-laid trap, nothing so obvious as a narrow valley for a landslide (although, that is a great tactic, especially if used as a Fabian tactic), but tricking a large army to a prepared ground - such as the perfect location to besiege a Roman city, with a small tunnel leading to a chamber filled with gunpowder that the Romans can set off from within the city. Nothing ends a siege like blowing up the commander.

For Melitene, you want sappers - get a sapper in there, nice and quiet, and gunpowder. Wall is now breached.

 

[gxblt]

I personally think that the discovery of gunpowder, like that of steel, has occurred independently many times, in many places. The main problem being that the discoverer rarely survived making the discovery. After all, grinding various substances (say, charcoal, brimstone and saltpetre) into powder, together, in a mortar with a pestle could result in an explosion that removes an appendage (hand) or worse.

Keep in mind these tree things:
1. In atmospheric pressure and a relatively open container, even the best black powder only makes a puff of smoke and fire. Nothing terribly hazardous.
2.The ratio to make weapon-grade gunpowder is surprisingly exact, so the alchemist has to be really lucky (or, rather, unlucky) to get a very powerful reaction on the first try.
3. I doubt the amounts used by alchemists were that big, maybe a few teaspoons of each ingredient.

 

[Cheer]

It depends on when they discover it. If they discover it around the same time they did Greek Fire IOTL, then they could very plausibly keep/retake Syria, Anatolia, and the Levant, if they get lucky with weapon-grade powder. And well-aimed grenades are just as devastating in naval battles as Greek Fire.

 

[GdwnsnHo]

Actually, regarding grenadiers with slings.

I can think of little reason that the same concept can't be applied to catapults.

Longer fuse, larger payload, and something ensure it doesn't go out in midair, and it could be used against infantry, or walls.

It'd be utter madness, but it is another option that after grenades are commonplace, seems the next natural evolution. I feel sorry for whoever is at the far end of a trebuchet throwing what is essentially a giant mine.

 

[Vasilas]

It depends on when they discover it. If they discover it around the same time they did Greek Fire IOTL, then they could very plausibly keep/retake Syria, Anatolia, and the Levant, if they get lucky with weapon-grade powder. And well-aimed grenades are just as devastating in naval battles as Greek Fire.

Actually, that I am slightly less sure of. While they were in sufficiently dire straits to experiment enough to find a weapon-grade mixture, they still have to deal with a mostly uncooperative local population and manpower shortages. Taking back the East immediately seems unlikely, but maybe in a few centuries, after the Arabs realize that attacking Anatolia means inviting death and give the Empire a chance to recover internally and handle the Balkans.

@All:
These are really fantastic ideas Might wind up stealing a few for my TL. It is set in the years of Basil II and beyond, but can still come in use

One question is, could they have kept the formula a secret to the extent they kept Greek fire one? Not indefinitely of course, just an edge for a couple of centuries or a bit longer.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

Question: are muskets easier to produce than cannons?

 

[Puzzle]

Question: are muskets easier to produce than cannons?

No, cannons are easiest because they don't need to be portable. Guns reduce in size with improved material science, if you can make a musket you can make cannons.

 

[Reader347]

In addition to the grenade slingers as per the Belisarius series (and yes, they ARE terrifying and devastating) I was thinking - what if Roman heavy infantry carried a grenade or two instead of the pilum, and used it the same way: to soften up the enemy infantry before either charging them, or them charging the Romans?

Roman army had slingers for skirmishing, it'd be nothing to have some of the strongest slingers carry some grenades. Team leader or firepot man/slinger provides the fire (somebody is running up extra ammo anyway). In the regular infantry have the last rank carry grenades in addition to a pilum with a firepot man or two to provide fire. Pilums were thrown at very close range just before a charge, after all. The troops weren't stupid, just give 'em the bombs and they'll figure out how to use them. Probably several ways, hand, sling, onager, that big crossbow thing that threw balls/spears. They had a throwing machine that'd toss rocks of about a hundred kilos, think what the artillery guys could do with that.