what if pirates managed to establish a permanent colony?

[weasel_airlift]

Seems that what's going to be needed geographically might be hard to come up with, since that is prime real estate.

What is needed:

A good harbor that is defensible, and protected from weather
Good beaches for careening ships
A source of raw materials for repairing ships at the least
A source of fresh water
Friendly natives that could be used as trading partners for food would be great. They'd also be a good source of defenders in the case of attack, since they have a vested interest in the stability of the colony

Is there any such place that might be available?

 

[tophatgaming]

Seems that what's going to be needed geographically might be hard to come up with, since that is prime real estate.

What is needed:

A good harbor that is defensible, and protected from weather
Good beaches for careening ships
A source of raw materials for repairing ships at the least
A source of fresh water
Friendly natives that could be used as trading partners for food would be great. They'd also be a good source of defenders in the case of attack, since they have a vested interest in the stability of the colony

Is there any such place that might be available?

the two candidates thus far have been panama and argentina, we could probably divide those two further

 

[Insane Ranter]

A pirate colony is going to need to be able to defend itself. Its much harder to find your in your ship at sea than on an island sitting around on an immovable island.

 

[tophatgaming]

A pirate colony is going to need to be able to defend itself. Its much harder to find your in your ship at sea than on an island sitting around on an immovable island.

there's an argument to be made most pirates spent a lot of their time on land, using it as an umbrella term for several overlapping titles during this time

 

[holycookie]

to recap where we are now

The falklands would be a good location for a pirate hub. Attacking ships entering the Plata basin and ships heading towards the Pacific using the Strait of Magellan.

 

[Devoid]

I agree, but I have to ask, even today nobody lives in the darien area because of how brutal it is, what was spain even doing with it?

Not anything, really. Spain's control of it on a map =/= Spain actually exercising control over it. They never did anything with it, they just sent a few ships when the Scots tried to colonize it because they didn't want the Scots to have it, not because they viewed it as critical territory to control or use.

The Argentine route has never been preferred as far as I know. As a whole Buenos Aires was by then a major spot for illegal trade of silver. Spain banned the export of silver from Buenos Aires and tried to direct exports out of Potosí.

Of course - but there is a period between roughly 1700 and 1900 where the routes around Tierra del Fuego (which, just to clarify is what I primarily meant by Argentinian) were relatively more popular than they were before or after. It began to move in that direction when Henry Morgan sacked Panama City in 1671 and destroyed a key trade hub that would take several years to recover, and you see signs of it when the Portobelo Fairs were ended circa 1750. Then the railway cropped up in 1855, and the canal in 1914, that reinvigorated the popularity of the Panamanian route and made it uber-dominant (instead of just majoritarian) again, phenomena that are very closely correlated to the major decline of the Argentine economy during the first half of the 20th century - and we're actually starting to head back in this direction, as the present drought forces the canal to limit how much stuff moves through it (which forces a large chunk to instead go through Tierra del Fuego again).

Any Argentinian route, whether around Tierra del Fuego or overland, will lose to the Panamanian route. But you did see a prolonged period where it took up a larger market share.

Panama is far superior as a piracy hub.

the conversation has shifted to argentina as a more likely candidate

There is a reason why my suggestion was for the pirates to go somewhere else in Panama, though. Even if Argentina was more popular compared to now (which does not mean more popular overall), Panama is indeed a better place as a pirate hub. It's just that Darien specifically sucks as a place to build a colony.

 

[tophatgaming]

Not anything, really. Spain's control of it on a map =/= Spain actually exercising control over it. They never did anything with it, they just sent a few ships when the Scots tried to colonize it because they didn't want the Scots to have it, not because they viewed it as critical territory to control or use.

Of course - but there is a period between roughly 1700 and 1900 where the routes around Tierra del Fuego (which, just to clarify is what I primarily meant by Argentinian) were relatively more popular than they were before or after. It began to move in that direction when Henry Morgan sacked Panama City in 1671 and destroyed a key trade hub that would take several years to recover, and you see signs of it when the Portobelo Fairs were ended circa 1750. Then the railway cropped up in 1855, and the canal in 1914, that reinvigorated the popularity of the Panamanian route and made it uber-dominant (instead of just majoritarian) again, phenomena that are very closely correlated to the major decline of the Argentine economy during the first half of the 20th century - and we're actually starting to head back in this direction, as the present drought forces the canal to limit how much stuff moves through it (which forces a large chunk to instead go through Tierra del Fuego again).

Any Argentinian route, whether around Tierra del Fuego or overland, will lose to the Panamanian route. But you did see a prolonged period where it took up a larger market share.


There is a reason why my suggestion was for the pirates to go somewhere else in Panama, though. Even if Argentina was more popular compared to now (which does not mean more popular overall), Panama is indeed a better place as a pirate hub. It's just that Darien specifically sucks as a place to build a colony.

so where would you propose a colony if not the darien?

 

[AsukaEMP]

I don't get why nobody is saying to just have them settle in any other place in the Caribbean that's not already occupied by other Europeans?
Saint Vincent, Tobago, the Mosquito coast, the US southern coast, southern Haiti, etc. all of these places were left wide open in 1695. Some of these places would have native resistance, but nothing that can't be overcome and nothing nearly as bad as the Spanish.

Nothing on the Panama Isthmus is going to work, it's too close to Spanish trade routes and naval bases. And the Falklands are far too isolated to be a viable pirate base.

 

[tophatgaming]

So picture this, the man behind the Darien scheme, William Paterson, is a merchant in the Caribbean, around this time he developed his idea for the Darien scheme sometime in the late 70s, I propose to you that in this alternate timeline he gets attacked by pirates and surrenders without a fight, as the cargo is being transferred he conversates with the captain, telling him about the untold riches that the far east holds, if someone were to colonise Panama, they could hold a monopoly on the goods coming in through there, Paterson continues his life as normal after this incident, meanwhile our captain, alongside a few others, manage to capture the darien from Spain, more importantly they hold it, when the Scots, Paterson among them, finally arrive years later, they find a settlement already built, similar to the recently destroyed port royal, this makes colonisation a lot easier, the pirates operating out of Panama now have some legitimacy to their actions as privateering, the colony likely wouldn't be able to turn a profit, but it would survive, what happens next?

I recommend rereading the original post

the inciting incident happens in the late 1670s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Paterson_(banker)

 

[AsukaEMP]

I recommend rereading the original post

I recommend rereading mine because 1. I directly responded to it, saying a colony in Panama is impossible and 2. you already diverted this thread to alternative sites like the Falklands with the goal of plundering smuggler routes, which is clearly not the same thing as trying to access the "untold riches of the Far East". I don't see why my proposals would be objectionable then.

The Darien Scheme was a pipe dream, the idea of a banker who was threading waters he was entirely ignorant of. If you want a Scottish pirate colony it's going to be in the places I mentioned. If you want them to get access to the Asians markets it's going to be around Africa just likely everybody else (except the Spanish).

 

[tophatgaming]

I recommend rereading mine because 1. I directly responded to it, saying a colony in Panama is impossible and 2. you already diverted this thread to alternative sites like the Falklands with the goal of plundering smuggler routes, which is clearly not the same thing as trying to access the "untold riches of the Far East". I don't see why my proposals would be objectionable then.

The Darien Scheme was a pipe dream, the idea of a banker who was threading waters he was entirely ignorant of. If you want a Scottish pirate colony it's going to be in the places I mentioned. If you want them to get access to the Asians markets it's going to be around Africa just likely everybody else (except the Spanish).

the scots have nothing to do with it until much later, as again it says in the original post, moreover, the consensus has been heading back to panama as the ideal place, we just need to find where in panama

 

[tophatgaming]

The Darien Scheme was a pipe dream

I feel you're giving paterson not enough credit, he had been a merchant in the carribean for years and knew how trade worked in the region

 

[AsukaEMP]

the scots have nothing to do with it until much later

Again, reread my comment. Nowhere did I say the Scottish are involved from the start, and when they do get involved is entirely irrelevant to what I said.

the consensus has been heading back to panama as the ideal place

One person said Panama is better as a pirate hub than the Falklands, because Panama is where most of the trade was happening. That doesn't mean there's a consensus.

Panama is not the ideal place. Panama is literally impossible. You can't settle in the east because it's harsh, dense, undeveloped jungles. You can't settle in the center because it's a Spanish military stronghold. And you can't settle in the west (Bocas del Toro) because the coasts are swamps. There is a reason why the Spanish only had a very small permanent presence on Panama's Caribbean coasts. Furthermore no matter where you settle in Panama the colony will be just as badly affected by tropical diseases as in Darien, and no matter where you settle the Spanish will hunt them down.

The west is more viable than the east, but that's just comparing a bad place with an abhorrent one. It would still take a lot for a settlement in western Panama to survive. And even if by a miracle it does that's still not going to lead to the fulfillment of the Darien Scheme in the long run, because western Panama also has a 2000-3500 meters high mountain range, and behind those mountains is a plain with a well-established Spanish presence with cities like David and Santiago. While the whole idea of the Darien Scheme was to circumvent the Spanish, which is why they chose Darien to begin with (never stopping to consider why the Spanish had abandoned the area in the first place).
​

I feel you're giving paterson not enough credit, he had been a merchant in the carribean for years and knew how trade worked in the region

Being a merchant doesn't mean you have the competences to set up a colony... As history has made abundantly clear.

 

[Gannt the chartist]

I shall be blunt, OP. No, pirates are not conducive to any form of lasting success. Much like it happened in the fabled Tortuga, once piracy gets boxed in, the place will start hemorraging, well, pirates.

Quite. Port Royal works as a base and party town because its part of the much larger Jamaica which is a valuable colony in its own right and a market for the goods and ships taken by pirates - or more Likely privateers like Morgan ( who was never a pirate except in Spanish eyes - no peace beyond the line) defended and managed by England. Anything else is small scale and completely vulnerable if a major navy shows up.

Trying to operate a society based on robbery with violence requires close proximity to victims and an absence of a meaningful police force.

There are some serious misconceptons. The Caribbean is the major world trade hub, and its not just Spanish gold you can pirate its all the rum sugar coffee, people, foodstuffs and shipping serving the booming plantation economy. And ofc the Spanish conveniently make war permanent and letters of Marque and Reprisal valuable even without the near constant European wars of the period. The only other place as worthwhile is the East Indies but the locals have the Piracy thing sewn up. Honorable mention to parts of the India ocean but the the Portuguese and aran slavers have most of the bases.

Argentina is not viable. Its hard to get to in a sailing ship, too dependent on prevailing winds to go to and from Europe, so the trade route is Via the Cape of Good Hope. Once you are there it may be viable but what you going to steal. and if you do where you going to sell it. The planters of Jamaica have money, the penguin farmers of the Falklands don't.

Pacific is not viable. You have to get a ship there intact which is hard going via Magellan, and if you go via Good Hope you are probably full of plunder by the time you reach India. Thereafter you need a base a port to sell stuff that is viable in its own right and far enough from or large enough to be defended against the Spanish. And whats the plunder, local fishing canoes, the odd coaster and a very infrequent and heavily defended treasure fleet sailing at an undetermined time.

 

[tophatgaming]

Quite. Port Royal works as a base and party town because its part of the much larger Jamaica which is a valuable colony in its own right and a market for the goods and ships taken by pirates - or more Likely privateers like Morgan ( who was never a pirate except in Spanish eyes - no peace beyond the line) defended and managed by England. Anything else is small scale and completely vulnerable if a major navy shows up.

Trying to operate a society based on robbery with violence requires close proximity to victims and an absence of a meaningful police force.

There are some serious misconceptons. The Caribbean is the major world trade hub, and its not just Spanish gold you can pirate its all the rum sugar coffee, people, foodstuffs and shipping serving the booming plantation economy. And ofc the Spanish conveniently make war permanent and letters of Marque and Reprisal valuable even without the near constant European wars of the period. The only other place as worthwhile is the East Indies but the locals have the Piracy thing sewn up. Honorable mention to parts of the India ocean but the the Portuguese and aran slavers have most of the bases.

Argentina is not viable. Its hard to get to in a sailing ship, too dependent on prevailing winds to go to and from Europe, so the trade route is Via the Cape of Good Hope. Once you are there it may be viable but what you going to steal. and if you do where you going to sell it. The planters of Jamaica have money, the penguin farmers of the Falklands don't.

Pacific is not viable. You have to get a ship there intact which is hard going via Magellan, and if you go via Good Hope you are probably full of plunder by the time you reach India. Thereafter you need a base a port to sell stuff that is viable in its own right and far enough from or large enough to be defended against the Spanish. And whats the plunder, local fishing canoes, the odd coaster and a very infrequent and heavily defended treasure fleet sailing at an undetermined time.

fair enough, frankly this was an awful idea

 

[tophatgaming]

in the interest of making this somewhat plausible, how would this realistically end up happening?

 

[AsukaEMP]

Bluefields seems like a good location for a pirate colony. It's located on a large sheltered bay on Nicaragua's eastern coast, which will help to keep it secure from coastal attacks. And at the same time the jungles of central Nicaragua protect it from Spanish attacks from the west. Surrounding marshlands provide further security, while Bluefields itself is located on some low hills so the settlers won't have to deal with the conditions of said marshes. More broadly it's peripheral enough in the Caribbean to not draw the immediate attention of foreign powers, most notably Spain, while also not being isolated from the trade routes. As an added bonus it also has drinkable water, which isn't always a given in the Caribbean.

Regardless of the site, the best way to achieve a pirate colony would be to have a weaker country establish a formal colony first, then have the place by overrun by pirates. The difference between such a colony and e.g. Tortuga or Nassau is that the government wouldn't be able to actually suppress the pirates once they decide they don't want to roll with them anymore. If no other power then swoops in, or if they try and fail, you'd effectively have an independent pirate colony.

However eventually the piracy will have to end, you simply can't have it lasting indefinitely. Over time the pirates will have to settle down and shift their focus to other activities. For example smuggling, or the colony could become a freeport to attract commerce from other colonies.​

 

[tophatgaming]

Bluefields seems like a good location for a pirate colony. It's located on a large sheltered bay on Nicaragua's eastern coast, which will help to keep it secure from coastal attacks. And at the same time the jungles of central Nicaragua protect it from Spanish attacks from the west. Surrounding marshlands provide further security, while Bluefields itself is located on some low hills so the settlers won't have to deal with the conditions of said marshes. More broadly it's peripheral enough in the Caribbean to not draw the immediate attention of foreign powers, most notably Spain, while also not being isolated from the trade routes. As an added bonus it also has drinkable water, which isn't always a given in the Caribbean.

Regardless of the site, the best way to achieve a pirate colony would be to have a weaker country establish a formal colony first, then have the place by overrun by pirates. The difference between such a colony and e.g. Tortuga or Nassau is that the government wouldn't be able to actually suppress the pirates once they decide they don't want to roll with them anymore. If no other power then swoops in, or if they try and fail, you'd effectively have an independent pirate colony.

However eventually the piracy will have to end, you simply can't have it lasting indefinitely. Over time the pirates will have to settle down and shift their focus to other activities. For example smuggling, or the colony could become a freeport to attract commerce from other colonies.​

I agree, so how are we to work the inciting incident into this new location?

 

[tophatgaming]

perhaps the chance encounter leads to an unlikely friendship, paterson did know quite a few boucaniers historically, maybe he realises a colony in panama is untenable, but there's still the possibly huge profits from the far east

 

[ennobee]

Although a colony founded by pirates may be viable, it will not be run by pirates in the long term. Pirates by themselves have little interest in building colonies. Their main aim is to have all the fun they can have before they die. So for a pirate settlement to grow into a viable city or colony, it will attract a second sort of colonists: shipwrights, weaponsmiths, tailors, cooks and innkeepers and lots of 'professional ladies' to build a society fueled by the goods and money the pirates bring in from their raids. Eventually it might get some farms and plantations staffed by slaves taken from Spanish sugar plantations by pirate raids more or less ordered by the city.