what if pirates managed to establish a permanent colony?

[tophatgaming]

So picture this, the man behind the Darien scheme, William Paterson, is a merchant in the Caribbean, around this time he developed his idea for the Darien scheme sometime in the late 70s, I propose to you that in this alternate timeline he gets attacked by pirates and surrenders without a fight, as the cargo is being transferred he conversates with the captain, telling him about the untold riches that the far east holds, if someone were to colonise Panama, they could hold a monopoly on the goods coming in through there, Paterson continues his life as normal after this incident, meanwhile our captain, alongside a few others, manage to capture the darien from Spain, more importantly they hold it, when the Scots, Paterson among them, finally arrive years later, they find a settlement already built, similar to the recently destroyed port royal, this makes colonisation a lot easier, the pirates operating out of Panama now have some legitimacy to their actions as privateering, the colony likely wouldn't be able to turn a profit, but it would survive, what happens next?

 

[Mildtryth]

So picture this, the man behind the Darien scheme, William Paterson, is a merchant in the Caribbean, around this time he developed his idea for the Darien scheme sometime in the late 70s, I propose to you that in this alternate timeline he gets attacked by pirates and surrenders without a fight, as the cargo is being transferred he conversates with the captain, telling him about the untold riches that the far east holds, if someone were to colonise Panama, they could hold a monopoly on the goods coming in through there, Paterson continues his life as normal after this incident, meanwhile our captain, alongside a few others, manage to capture Panama from Spain, more importantly they hold it, when the Scots, Paterson among them, finally arrive years later, they find a settlement already built, similar to the recently destroyed port royal, this makes colonisation a lot easier, the pirates operating out of Panama now have some legitimacy to their actions as privateering, the colony likely wouldn't be able to turn a profit, but it would survive, what happens next?

First, I very much doubt that a bunch of pirates would be able to establish any meaningful control over all of the isthmus all by themselves, considering that even the Spanish had a hard time doing that, so I presume you are talking about Panama City. That's going to be a pain to resupply from Scotland, that's for sure.

 

[tophatgaming]

First, I very much doubt that a bunch of pirates would be able to establish any meaningful control over all of the isthmus all by themselves, considering that even the Spanish had a hard time doing that, so I presume you are talking about Panama City. That's going to be a pain to resupply from Scotland, that's for sure.

it isn't as hard to believe as you would think, pirates under the command of henry morgan sacked panama in the 1670s

 

[PolishMagnet]

conversates

converses*

 

[tophatgaming]

converses*

you get the idea, so the pirates, with some effort manage to take the isthmus, when the Scots show up, they give control to them with the prospect of receiving letters of marque from the company, where does New Caledonia go from there?

 

[Xenophonte]

it isn't as hard to believe as you would think, pirates under the command of henry morgan sacked panama in the 1670s

First a thing is to land and do with the advantage of the surprise a plunder and burn kind of raid and fled with the pillaged goods without to stay and wait to face the foreseeable Spanish military reaction as was Morgan's case... And another to attempt to keep and control for an indefinite amount of time against an constant and safe logistical chain to supply (to the pirates turned in conquerors) from men and to keep them supplied in a very unhealthy place even for the natives.
Also, after the pirates attack that burned Panama city (the Old), the Spanish not stayed idle, and did took measures to prevent it from happening again. Panama city, 'the New', was refunded/translated to better defensive location so as well as redesigned from scratch (to improve its defense) and with new and defenses/bastions to keep it protected and help top withstand successful any eventual attack/siege:

The system of walls built around this city had an eminently military purpose, in order to prevent a new attack by pirates. This is how three powerful bastions were built: Barlovento, Mano de Tigre and Puerta de Tierra . The latter had the function of entering and exiting the city towards the suburb , as the city outside the walls was called.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

it isn't as hard to believe as you would think, pirates under the command of henry morgan sacked panama in the 1670s

To sack and destroy would be a different scenario to setting up shop/a colony in the middle of nowhere.


ISTR someone saying that if Darien had been either up/down the coast a ways, it couldve been a success. But its OTL location (like MacGregor's Poyais in the 1820s) was a death sentence

 

[tophatgaming]

to be fair, it wasn't unprecedented, baymen lived in the brutal Yucatan Peninsula, making a well enough fortune harvesting logwood

here's a great video on the subject

 

[tophatgaming]

piracy was a lot more complicated then at first glance, the fact they were able to go as far as sacking entire cities on occasion proves that with the right incentive, and the right amount of lunacy, a colony isn't that absurd

 

[Xenophonte]

Would worth to be remembered/noted that any/all of the 'buccaneers'/settlements like colonies were done in remote uninhabited locations on the fringe of the Imperial holdings, not dissimilar to the ancient land based banditry and that usually they preferred/should practice asymmetrical kind of warfare.
And, that when they were too daring/too bothersome and their targets had the necessary/available resources then their settlements and their homes (along with all their stolen goods and all that they had managed to built) turned in legitimate and easy target of the affected empires/nations retribution/punitive expeditions.

 

[tophatgaming]

Would worth to be remembered/noted that any/all of the 'buccaneers'/settlements like colonies were done in remote uninhabited locations on the fringe of the Imperial holdings, not dissimilar to the ancient land based banditry and that usually they preferred/should practice asymmetrical kind of warfare.
And, that when they were too daring/too bothersome and their targets had the necessary/available resources then their settlements and their homes (along with all their stolen goods and all that they had managed to built) turned in legitimate and easy target of the affected empires/nations retribution/punitive expeditions.

fair enough, but again, these were people willing to do just about anything for money, and if they saw the opportunity to make a fortune, pirates would flock to this new venture

 

[Evil Crusader]

piracy was a lot more complicated then at first glance, the fact they were able to go as far as sacking entire cities on occasion proves that with the right incentive, and the right amount of lunacy, a colony isn't that absurd

Plundering stuff and building stuff are two very different skills. One has much faster, more immediate motivators, the other does not. Mantaining stuff is even worse.

 

[Evil Crusader]

true, but if there's a long term profit, it would be worth it

Not for pirates. Pirates are there for the quick buck. Are we really talking about the same guys? The one who are going crime and war in order to turn a profit?

 

[tophatgaming]

Not for pirates. Pirates are there for the quick buck. Are we really talking about the same guys? The one who are going crime and war in order to turn a profit?

they were businessmen at the end of the day, if they saw a hugely profitable opportunity in a part of the world nobody would think to colonise, they would go for it

 

[holycookie]

it isn't as hard to believe as you would think, pirates under the command of henry morgan sacked panama in the 1670s

Colonization and piracy are very different things. Making attacks and looting are easy things, you attack someone who is not prepared, take as much as you can carry and run away as quickly as possible. Colonization you have to resist the attack back. There is no option to escape.

they were businessmen at the end of the day, if they saw a hugely profitable opportunity in a part of the world nobody would think to colonise, they would go for it

Okay, let's assume that they really try to colonize the region. At otl they had several problems:

The problems faced by the settlers included a lack of provisions due to famine in Scotland, the Scots' lack of colonizing experience, diseases such as malaria, poor weather and the proximity of the Spanish, who claimed the land the Scots had settled on. Also, for a trading colony established to trade with passing ships in both the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans, they carried a poor choice of trade goods, including wigs, shoes, bibles, woolen clothing and clay pipes. The colony received no assistance from the crown or English colonies in the West Indies or Jamaica, despite having been promised, in the 1695 act, the assistance of William II. Thus, the Scots faced assaults by the Spanish on their own. In 1699, they dealt with this by recruiting a Jamaican captain to raid Spanish shipping as a privateer, but this achieved little. Soon thereafter, the Spanish mounted an expedition of 500 men to wipe out the Scots. This was effective, as most settlers had already succumbed to disease or starvation.

wiki:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott...1696, 2,500 Scottish settlers,(0.61 km2) each.

Now we have to see what is possible to improve compared to otl. More provisions is the first and most important. Diseases such as malaria, poor weather and the proximity of the Spanish cannot be fixed, they are part of the package. Maybe a little more luck with the weather, but that's it. Assistance from the crown/England is another vital point. In relation to settlers, the best thing would be to send prisoners to deal with the absurd mortality rate. Other than that they have to deal with attacks and raids made by the Spanish. But assuming everything goes right or most things go right, it is viable. It will be a colony with a siege mentality. that's the best luck, if it's done by pirates like a tortuga, well the pirate colony will be burned. It is very close to very important point for sending silver to Europe and Asia. The Scottish colony would basically be a plantation region with a white minority. Ah and probably we don't have union of scotland and england.

 

[tophatgaming]

Colonization and piracy are very different things. Making attacks and looting are easy things, you attack someone who is not prepared, take as much as you can carry and run away as quickly as possible. Colonization you have to resist the attack back. There is no option to escape.

Okay, let's assume that they really try to colonize the region. At otl they had several problems:

The problems faced by the settlers included a lack of provisions due to famine in Scotland, the Scots' lack of colonizing experience, diseases such as malaria, poor weather and the proximity of the Spanish, who claimed the land the Scots had settled on. Also, for a trading colony established to trade with passing ships in both the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans, they carried a poor choice of trade goods, including wigs, shoes, bibles, woolen clothing and clay pipes. The colony received no assistance from the crown or English colonies in the West Indies or Jamaica, despite having been promised, in the 1695 act, the assistance of William II. Thus, the Scots faced assaults by the Spanish on their own. In 1699, they dealt with this by recruiting a Jamaican captain to raid Spanish shipping as a privateer, but this achieved little. Soon thereafter, the Spanish mounted an expedition of 500 men to wipe out the Scots. This was effective, as most settlers had already succumbed to disease or starvation.

wiki:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_colonization_of_the_Americas#:~:text=In 1696, 2,500 Scottish settlers,(0.61 km2) each.

Now we have to see what is possible to improve compared to otl. More provisions is the first and most important. Diseases such as malaria, poor weather and the proximity of the Spanish cannot be fixed, they are part of the package. Maybe a little more luck with the weather, but that's it. Assistance from the crown/England is another vital point. In relation to settlers, the best thing would be to send prisoners to deal with the absurd mortality rate. Other than that they have to deal with attacks and raids made by the Spanish. But assuming everything goes right or most things go right, it is viable. It will be a colony with a siege mentality. that's the best luck, if it's done by pirates like a tortuga, well the pirate colony will be burned. It is very close to very important point for sending silver to Europe and Asia. The Scottish colony would basically be a plantation region with a white minority. Ah and probably we don't have union of scotland and england.

to clarify, scotland would have no involvement until much later, as for pirates colonising, I will direct you to the baymen, who lived in an area even worse then panama for years harvesting logwood

 

[tophatgaming]

one more thing, your number of 500 men is...incredibly small, especially for who spain is going up against

 

[holycookie]

as for pirates colonising, I will direct you to the baymen, who lived in an area even worse then panama for years harvesting logwood

Honduras is not Panama. The importance of the region is different. Simply saying that because of a group of pirates living in a region collecting wood in a region that only became relevant after 1763, another group would achieve the same in a key region for the Spanish Empire's trade doesn't work. Spain is not a weak power in this era, if they wanted they could have easily killed the baymen, they were simply not worth the trouble. The Panama region is important so a colony of pirates will not survive.

one more thing, your number of 500 men is...incredibly small, especially for who spain is going up against

No, because the first number does not mean quality. History has hundreds or thousands of examples of professional troops defeating militias 4 or 5 times their size. The number of Scots who went to the colony were 2,500 settlers. With the vast majority of these dying from hunger and malaria. so the Spanish troops just had to clean up what was left.
PS: pirates are historically ambush predators, not soldiers.

 

[tophatgaming]

Honduras is not Panama. The importance of the region is different. Simply saying that because of a group of pirates living in a region collecting wood in a region that only became relevant after 1763, another group would achieve the same in a key region for the Spanish Empire's trade doesn't work. Spain is not a weak power in this era, if they wanted they could have easily killed the baymen, they were simply not worth the trouble. The Panama region is important so a colony of pirates will not survive.
View attachment 884856

No, because the first number does not mean quality. History has hundreds or thousands of examples of professional troops defeating militias 4 or 5 times their size. The number of Scots who went to the colony were 2,500 settlers. With the vast majority of these dying from hunger and malaria. so the Spanish troops just had to clean up what was left.
PS: pirates are historically ambush predators, not soldiers.

funny you should say that, a lot of pirates were veterans of the many wars of the age, pirates were not the barbarians many think they were, they were strategic, pragmatic, adaptable, they lived in some of the most dangerous places in the world, here's another thing to consider, was spain even doing anything with panama? when the scots arrived, the place was apparently untouched, this would especially be the case 20 years earlier

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

I feel if the Scottish settlement of Panama is going succeed, then a great part in that success will be how they treat the natives. If the Scottish pirates treat the natives kindly, then the natives will not be so willing to turn the Scottish pirates over to the Spanish.