Not to mention Maximilian will now have the full pockets of Burgundy, since it won't be only Maximilian claiming Hungary, they (Maria & Maximilian) will be claiming Hungary together.
What if Mary The Rich of Burgundy survived?
- Thread starter archdukeofwasia
- Start date
Writing a family three because what the hell.
Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor b 1459 d 1522 m Mary I of Burgundy, Holy Roman Empress b 1457 d 1419
Issue:
Philip of Burgundy, King of the Romans b 1478 d 1515 m Anne of York b 1475
- Mary of Burgundy b 1495 d 1496
- Margaret of Burgundy b 1497
- Anne of Burgundy b 1499 d 1501
- Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor b 1500
- Maximilian of Burgundy b 1503 d 1505
- Philippe of Burgundy b 1507
-Margaret of Austria b 1480 m Juan, Prince of Asturias and Girona b 1478 d 1500
- Juan III b 1497
- Infanta Isabella b 1500
-Francis (died in infancy) 1481-2
-Ernest of Austria-Burgundy b 1484 m?
-Mary of Austria-Burgundy b 1486 b 1489
-Eleanor of Austria-Burgundy b 1491 m?
Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor b 1459 d 1522 m Mary I of Burgundy, Holy Roman Empress b 1457 d 1419
Issue:
Philip of Burgundy, King of the Romans b 1478 d 1515 m Anne of York b 1475
- Mary of Burgundy b 1495 d 1496
- Margaret of Burgundy b 1497
- Anne of Burgundy b 1499 d 1501
- Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor b 1500
- Maximilian of Burgundy b 1503 d 1505
- Philippe of Burgundy b 1507
-Margaret of Austria b 1480 m Juan, Prince of Asturias and Girona b 1478 d 1500
- Juan III b 1497
- Infanta Isabella b 1500
-Francis (died in infancy) 1481-2
-Ernest of Austria-Burgundy b 1484 m?
-Mary of Austria-Burgundy b 1486 b 1489
-Eleanor of Austria-Burgundy b 1491 m?
Last edited:
I'd suggest Ernest instead of Frederick. Max had quite low opinion about his dad.
depends where you're standing. IIRC his difficult relationship with Max had to do with tem being two opposite temperaments- and partly because Max blamed his dad for his mom's death.
The "King Sleepyhead" nickname was given to him by someone who didn't quite grasp the situation (or had very little grasp of it). Fritz couldn't really act because he didn't have eiither the money or the "legitimacy" to act (OTL, until Ladislaus the Posthumous died, he was seen as a sort of "caretaker"). In order to "get" elected, he'd needed to sign a Wahlkapitulation* with the electors. While every emperor did this, and no emperor ever elevated the Wahlkapitulation to the status of an imperial edict or actual law, they were constrained to abide by its terms to a greater or lesser extent, dependent on how much power they had. OTL, had Fritz gone against the Wahl while Ladislaus the Posthumous was still alive, it'd have been very easy for the electors/pope to depose him.
1457- Ladislaus dies, removing a rival candidate for the throne
1464- his brother-in-law the elector of Saxony dies, removing his obligations towards Saxony for the Wahlkapitulation**
1470- the elector of Bradenburg dies, removing Friedrich's obligations towards Brandenburg
1476- the Elector Palatine dies, removing Friedrich's obligations towards the Palatinate (and Philipp of the Palatinate absolutely hated the Habsburgs)
And that's before one takes into account the two far more dangerous threats of Matyas Corvinus and Charles the Bold.
A bissl links, a bissl rechts (little to the left, a little to the right) was the only option that Friedrich had to work with.
*this was essentially a promise of what he would "give" to the electors should they elect him. To give an idea of how complex this sort of document was, the last one, signed by Franz II in 1792, was over 110 pages long (and that was when the election of a Habsburg was pretty much an undeniable fact)
**this was the thing, a Wahlkapitulation could never be renegotiated, so it was only good for the signatories' lifetimes
Not defending Fritz, but I think that he was the man to survive both Charles the Bold* and Matyas Corvinus** has a sot of canniness
*while the panicked flight from Trier in 1473 is often cited on Friedrich-Charles relations, the fact is that Friedrich had been watching Burgundy with suspicion since Philippe le Bon had refused to swear fealty to him in 1449 at Besançon already. Fritz refused to receive Phil at Regensburg in 1455 (instead sending his secretary, Piccolomini). It's also worth noting that when Friedrich had offered Charles a "higher crown" in 1471, Charles intimated to Archduke Sigmund (the usual conduit), that he had no aspirations to any crown aside from that of king of the Romans as was the emperor's "dearest wish". Even going so far as to suggest that he [Charles] would be only too willing to take up Friedrich's "more onerous" duties, even that he should abdicate.
The situation in Trier was slightly more complicated than just Friedrich not wanting to grant Charles a crown. Firstly, Charles had troops quartered in the city (Friedrich, as emperor, was not allowed such a privilege, even if he had had them to spare). Secondly, while he had sent a summons out to the other electors to assemble, only Mainz and Trier turned up. The remainder's response? Let Charles wait until the Reichstag convened at Augsburg November following. Charles was the one to break off negotiations with Friedrich less than a week after they'd agreed to everything on October 15th because he was convinced that Friedrich was the one stalling. Friedrich, understandably, left town for fear that he would wind up imprisoned (or worse), by Charles.
**
Joanna marrying ITTL Philip interests me and I wonder what her interactions with a surviving Mary would be like? (Yes I know Philip might marry a York, but can anyone blame me for wanting Joanna to be Empress? I'll sacrifice the Yorks for it to happen, sorry to Marge of York). I might make an Empress Joanna scenario.
Last edited:
If Mary of Burgundy lives the whole chain who brought to the fall of the Yorks is knocked out. Joanna was not on the table for Philip before 1495 in OTL and things will not change here
No offence, but this source seems like bullshit, Poland wasn't empire's fief and Hungary, able to curbstomp Habsburgs anytime it wanted of course wasn't fief of decoration HRE was at that point, even in case of Bohemia it was more personal obligation from the king of Bohemia than entire country being part of HRE.
Neither Poland nor Hungary were ever Imperial Fiefs, both received their Royal Crown from the Papacy, but were no formal Papal fiefs like for instance later Naples (Sicily) or Portugal. At best or worse such a relationship would perhaps have been personal not formal.
I disagree regarding the kingdom of Bohemia proper (the former duchy, on par with the stem duchies, not the later smaller territorial duchies) and the margraviate of Moravia, both were Imperial fiefs and treated as such. Still IMHO the best way to describe Bohemia’s relationship with the rest of the Empire is that of an autonomous region with only their monarch being a direct vassal of the Empire.
A position like the one I described for Bohemia, was the best any Emperor could offer, whereas Charles the Bold was more in favour of a position like Hungary or Poland had with Empire. However these were already kingdoms, and Charles needed the Emperor for his Royal Crown.
I’ve seen this list before, some wishes (like Liege/Luik/Lüttich and Utrecht) make sense, while other ones are just too much to be honoured.
Last edited:
This is for Charles the Bold, so often I’ve seen he wished to be made king of Burgundy & Friesland/Frisia. For Philip the Good I’ve seen resurrecting Frisia/Friesland or elevating a principality like Brabant. (Both options naturally were found interesting in sources from the Low Countries not that they are abundant.)
I both cases Lotharingia is much rarer, Burgundy has been floated around for both more often (but more in terms of being desired not in terms of being offered).
With Mary alive there would still be a treaty needed between Burgundy and France. IMHO the most likely outcome would be something that resembles the OTL treaty of Senlis. The duchy of Burgundy proper and for instance the Somme towns (in Picardy) will be lost. Counties like Ponthieu and Eu are still likely to stay French fiefs, perhaps at best in this region the county of Boulogne can follow the OTL county of St Pol (a Burgundian vassal for that possession) and follow direct Burgundian French fiefs like the counties of Flanders and Artois and changed into an Imperial Fief.
Both St Pol and Boulogne had historic ties with both Artois and Flanders, there were no such ties with the Somme Towns and the counties of Vermandois, Ponthieu and Eu; so there is a ground to transfer the former two, but not the latter ones.
Edit: in the south I don't see any border adjustments between the duchy and free county (county palatine) of Burgundy happening, the only plausible candidate there might be the duchy of Bar, but that wasn't in Burgundian hands. IOTL the county of Charolais did stay in Burgundian hands after the treaty of Senlis, and the Imperial bit of the duchy of Burgundy was transferred to France.
Last edited:
technically do you know what stopped Charles from requesting papal support for his quest for a crown ?, because considering he was the only other political actor in Europe ( besides the Emperor ) with the power to create or elevate a political office, if he is appropriately deemed suitable ( just see the creation of various noble titles over the centuries, from the royal titles of Poland, Hungary, Sardinia and Corsica passing through the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, which was a purely papal operation that Max II was forced to swallow ) furthermore technically even the simple fact of having cardinals in the curia is a step towards the recognition of a royal title ( given that if we exclude the Italians, all the other curiates are representatives of the crown ) therefore I do not understand this lack of a diplomatic channel to bring carry on with Charles 's initiative ( it's a very strange thing, which I still don't understand ) certainly there is the omnipresent French obstructionism to consider but the possibilities were there after all, the relationships, although complicated, were important and was mainly based on the network of Italian alliances built by Charles ( primarily Naples, Venice and Milan )
Last edited:
Valois Burgundy only held French and Imperial Fiefs, they held no independent territory. In case of the latter, both the Papacy and the Empire could be used as an avenue for such an elevation. The elevation of the duchy of Florence, an Imperial Fief, to the Grand Duchy of Tuscany by the Pope was an exception and a compromise (not a kingdom), and unsurprisingly done by a Pro Medici Pope for the house of Medici. Obviously France didn't object here and ever since the Investiture Controversy, the Papacy did dispute Imperial authority here the most.
Now back to Valois Burgundy, given French influence elevating one of the French possessions is too hard. Perhaps maybe in an ATL,. where Valois Burgundy, as an English ally, helps them with the treaty of Troyes, which lead to a Lancastrian France and England, a reasonable price might be, that perhaps not the duchy of Burgundy proper, but the counties of Flanders and Artois are released from French feudal obligations making these independent principalities. Even when they would return to the French cause, they might demand French recognition of said situation. In said ATL Flanders would in an ideal position to become the Royal title of Flanders.
Valois Burgundy also held a lot of Imperial fiefs, even there the Papacy wouldn't unilaterally Burgundian possessions here, this would not only anger the Emperor, but also the Great Princes of the Empire, all of them would find in France a very willing ally to block any attempt in that regard (not entirely the enemy of my enemy, but it's close).
AFAIK as far back as Philip (Philippe le Bon/Filips de Goede) the Good, the Imperial chancellors (IIRC at least Kaspar Sclick was one of them) did communicate, that they were willing to elevate certain Imperial fiefs held by Valois Burgundy (and attach to it at the minimum their other nearby fiefs and perhaps a few adjecent to these, already in the Burgundian sphere) to a kingdom, said kingdom would like Bohemia (not as @Zygmunt Stary rightfully pointed out Hungary nor Poland) be an Imperial fief.
Such an elevation of an Imperial Fief, which would remain an Imperial Fief would be well within the prerogatives of the Emperor. The Emperors were not against this, because ironically such a move would tie these peripherical closer to the Empire again (albeit like Bohemia as an autonomous region), moreover Valois Burgundy woul now basically both defend both defend their dynastic lands and the Empire, since IMHO such a Royal Title could be a good moment to make them, like once Edward III of England before them Imperial Vicar west of the Rhine.
AFAIK Philip the Good only desired a truely independent kingdom, neither the Emperor nor the Pope could, would or wanted to do with lands they held. Charles the Bold dreamed of becoming King of the Romans and thus later Holy Roman Emperor, then an independent kingdom and if that fails, then any Imperial fief, almost as big Middle Francia was except Italy, basically still demanding ridiculously much.
Last edited:
Spain and England are valuable for both, but there are better matches possible than Lorraine, even it would help the "Austrian" agenda, I can for instance see Mary agreeing on her daughter becoming the next queen of Poland over being duchess of Lorraine.
Not really, especially once Habsburg-Burgundy would hold both thrones, they are tied to each other, albeit maybe to a lesser degree than IOTL.
Philip and Joanna might end up having a more normal Royal marriage for the time, both Maximilian (fond of mistresses too, very much as bachelor) and Mary (brought up in such a court, knew the noble limits) could help Philip in his upbringing and Mary might be able to somewhat teach Joanna the norms of a French style court and possibly be the only woman to hammer some decency in him regarding mistresses. Joanna will need to be able to live with that, but AFAIK Ferdinand of Aragon had his share of mistresses, I'm not saying it sucks hard, that's where Marie/Maria can help Juana to cope.
Also with Mary and Maximilian in Brussels, I can see Philip and Juana being send to Innsbruck, Graz and Wien (Vienna), them serving as governors there will be educational and perhaps it will Philip to understand the interest Maximilian has Bohemia and Hungary, especially if the Trastamaras keep the Spanish kingdoms and the Imperial princes oppose any Imperial self aggrandizement like giving yourself something like Austrasia.
I tend to agree, especially since the Tudors have a very weak Lancastrian claim. Legitimate Lancastrians with a strong claim would have far less issues finding allies to mess with the legitimacy of the potential Yorkist queen of France, in such scenario would even be messed with.