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Was there a lot of slavery in ancient past? Why? Is it plausible for a state to disdain slavery?
- Thread starter Accelerator/ Onewayroad
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Because it was cheaper, I guess.
But, mostly, because it was considered socially acceptable to do so.
You want to hire someone to fight to the death at your funeral? Other jobs are unpleasant, demeaning to free workers. Othersbwoukdnt be practical if you had to pay workers: silver or salt mining, for example, had huge death rates for workers: if you paid free men to do it, it would be too expensive, because they’d demand huge prices to take the risk.
Or it’s long hours in the sun, day in, day out ... or it’s skills that you don’t have, but your enemies did, so you capture them and force them to work for you...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery
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Slavery is a difficult matter to work on; in Scandinavia or at least in the areas becoming Denmark and Norway slavery was well known. Its already mentioned here. Not unusually known as thrall's.
Slaves/thrall's have been assessed recently to make out 20% of population.
Slav is also mentioned which was a general term on peoples captured from certain areas to be made slaves. Danes would go on raids on the southern Baltic shore for capturing slaves to be serving themselves or be sold. They would go a long way around some even to the New World - Vinland on Leif's ship!
A new theory have it that the Ring-castles/Trelleborgs was made to contain slaves and act as makets! That would surely make the raiding on the Slav Shore an industry. And then the terms Trelle/Thrall are interchangeable.
I haven't seen prisoners of war being used as slaves but of course it wouldn't be impossible; rather it seems such were used for bargaining chips as hostages.
One Danish magnate family traditionally is rumoured to have a thrall background - the Hvide. If so this marks the ability of slaves to be able to become freemen and climb the Societal ladder to the very top as the Hvide Family would become kingmakers in the 11.-13. century but also hold the highest offices of the Church in Scandinavia.
Regarding the Church. Leading church chroniclers would as early as 8. century give freeing of slaves as a mark of piety; Anglo-Saxon Willibrord visiting his kinsmen in Jutland 730 were allowed taking 30 boys back to England to be taught the Christian faith. Possibly none of the ruling class at this time would waste a valuable son on such sillyness and what he brought back was slaves. So he managed to have slaves set free or at least placed in his custody for a noble endeavour.
As late as early 13. century leading Danish Bishops did own slaves - Archbishop Absalon in his will name the slaves to be set free.
Economy.
It seems that Scandinavian economy during late Ironage/ early Medieval termed Viking Age or Vendel (in case of Sweden) had several ways of economic interaction.
There was the silver standard as weighs have been found and so pieces of silver to go along; according to the Icelanding Sagas gift-giving was a substatial economy: I give you something than you owe me.
Currency: silver coins found at Ribe from around 7/8. century and found the mark of the monarchial state.
Most likely also a kind of feudalism originating from gift-giving: I the landlord provides security for you the peasant in return you have to work for me a specific number of days a year (not unlike feudal servitude where the nobility would owe the King/Lord a number of days of armed servitude a year in return of their tax-exemption and upholding the law).
What would then be the value of a slave/thrall in Scandinavian society? We don't know and possibly any attempt at assessing such would be futile until we find documentation in some form but if the myth of the Hvide Family is real then some value was accorded a slave. We just don't know.
Could slaves be part of societal economy? Possibly but then the myth is that the various lands of the Danes contributed to the building of the Dannevirke each section having its ethnic group of Scanians/Sjællanders etc. working it. Signalling it being the work of free men to stay free. Which may be a later Medieval construct.
Probably the thing is that slavery was such an ordinary thing as your smartphone these days; everybody had one everybody would get one and would use it for its possibilies/abilities everybody knew the price so no need to record it. The difference being that everyone could outfit an expedition to raid the neighbour for slaves and keep for own use or sell on.
Compelled work - servitude owed ones lord existed well into the 18. century in Denmark and in some specific cases the 19. Actually in a way it still exists in all societies as a means accorded mobilization in case of war or martial law where your personal belongings may be requesitioned by the state for temporary use.
Slaves/thrall's have been assessed recently to make out 20% of population.
Slav is also mentioned which was a general term on peoples captured from certain areas to be made slaves. Danes would go on raids on the southern Baltic shore for capturing slaves to be serving themselves or be sold. They would go a long way around some even to the New World - Vinland on Leif's ship!
A new theory have it that the Ring-castles/Trelleborgs was made to contain slaves and act as makets! That would surely make the raiding on the Slav Shore an industry. And then the terms Trelle/Thrall are interchangeable.
I haven't seen prisoners of war being used as slaves but of course it wouldn't be impossible; rather it seems such were used for bargaining chips as hostages.
One Danish magnate family traditionally is rumoured to have a thrall background - the Hvide. If so this marks the ability of slaves to be able to become freemen and climb the Societal ladder to the very top as the Hvide Family would become kingmakers in the 11.-13. century but also hold the highest offices of the Church in Scandinavia.
Regarding the Church. Leading church chroniclers would as early as 8. century give freeing of slaves as a mark of piety; Anglo-Saxon Willibrord visiting his kinsmen in Jutland 730 were allowed taking 30 boys back to England to be taught the Christian faith. Possibly none of the ruling class at this time would waste a valuable son on such sillyness and what he brought back was slaves. So he managed to have slaves set free or at least placed in his custody for a noble endeavour.
As late as early 13. century leading Danish Bishops did own slaves - Archbishop Absalon in his will name the slaves to be set free.
Economy.
It seems that Scandinavian economy during late Ironage/ early Medieval termed Viking Age or Vendel (in case of Sweden) had several ways of economic interaction.
There was the silver standard as weighs have been found and so pieces of silver to go along; according to the Icelanding Sagas gift-giving was a substatial economy: I give you something than you owe me.
Currency: silver coins found at Ribe from around 7/8. century and found the mark of the monarchial state.
Most likely also a kind of feudalism originating from gift-giving: I the landlord provides security for you the peasant in return you have to work for me a specific number of days a year (not unlike feudal servitude where the nobility would owe the King/Lord a number of days of armed servitude a year in return of their tax-exemption and upholding the law).
What would then be the value of a slave/thrall in Scandinavian society? We don't know and possibly any attempt at assessing such would be futile until we find documentation in some form but if the myth of the Hvide Family is real then some value was accorded a slave. We just don't know.
Could slaves be part of societal economy? Possibly but then the myth is that the various lands of the Danes contributed to the building of the Dannevirke each section having its ethnic group of Scanians/Sjællanders etc. working it. Signalling it being the work of free men to stay free. Which may be a later Medieval construct.
Probably the thing is that slavery was such an ordinary thing as your smartphone these days; everybody had one everybody would get one and would use it for its possibilies/abilities everybody knew the price so no need to record it. The difference being that everyone could outfit an expedition to raid the neighbour for slaves and keep for own use or sell on.
Compelled work - servitude owed ones lord existed well into the 18. century in Denmark and in some specific cases the 19. Actually in a way it still exists in all societies as a means accorded mobilization in case of war or martial law where your personal belongings may be requesitioned by the state for temporary use.
Accelerator/ Onewayroad
Banned
So basically.... if you plop down a edict saying, "no slavery", everyone would erupt, or just ignore it?
Most would be confused, bewildered, at how you’d expect civilisation to function without disposable, chattel labour ... and are you gonna take away our property? That’s theft! Our businesses and estates rely on slaves ... what about my kids tutor? He’s been in the family for years! Hell, household slaves are often buried in family plots ... do you want us to kick them out onto the streets?
Slavery is complicated. What we see as a crime against humanity, or ancestors just saw as part of the way the world worked.
Some had them ... often it was considered uncouth to mistreat them. But mostly it would be hard to enforce, and how dare you tell me what I can do with my own property?
Accelerator/ Onewayroad
Banned
Ah. Dehumanization, lack of regulation, and just too plain common?
Why did it disappear, then?
A combination of economy, culture and religion. Slavery became uneconomical, and socially unacceptable. The story of abolition is long and complicated, with many books written on it, so you can just go and do some research.
So, if you want to get rid of slavery in an ancient society, you need to find ways to make slavery unprofitable and disliked, rather than just declaring it illegal. Introducing new tech to replace hard labour, improving education, boosting the economy, raising wages, and a change in religion that emphasises equality, free will, individual rights, are all good steps to take.
Again, it varies depending on the time and the culture.
In Britain (and America), there was a surge of religiously-motivated abolitionism (really starting with the Quakers, as well as the Mennonites), which had strains of Enlightenment thought in there as well. It snowballed from there. Don't forget, slavery was abolished by the UK when it was still profitable.
The trans-Atlantic slave trade was stopped before slavery itself became illegal.
For the rest of Europe, well, the Royal Navy may have had a few...words...with the slave traders.
Accelerator/ Onewayroad
Banned
Wait. How does one raise wages in a bronze age economy?
And what is the main tech used by slaves?
Depends on the economy. Maybe increase the amount of payment-in-kind (food, etc.)
Again, depends on what the slaves are doing. They would probably use the same things anyone doing that job would in that era.
As far as I know it was a problem in The Caribbean sugar plantantions, and that was one of the reasons The Slave death rate was so horrorific.
I suppose The something similar happened in The Classic era.
The Food production Techniques and lands were incapable of producing enough Food for all the "free" population without more working adults. And what is better?To have a Slave, feed it little and get With as much work you can from them before he die? Or work brackbeaking work, get as much Food as you can and still see some of Your family die for the lack of Food?
May sound inhuman, for us, but With enough Hungry and fear anything become an option. And from there you get complexity.
There Is not enough Food here but there they have enough Food, if I sell myself as their Slave they will feed me, etc etc
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Accelerator/ Onewayroad
Banned
so in other words, you want to smash apart slavery, you gotta start importing GM crops, fertiliser, modern farming techniques, and automated reapers?
No, not something so modern, but better agricultural tools and techniques Is a must, China get The same resultd with The heavy plow and whellbarrow, Europe With The Scythe, Basically Any tool that make your work more efficient, Is an advance.