Vinland - Viable immigration opportunities

That would be reverting to paganism, not remaining paganism, given the timeframe of your mini-POD.

Paganism was still ongoing for the first few decades (at least) in Greenland after its settlement. Arguably, it never totally died out in Western Settlement, but that's an argument for another thread.

And as for my mini-POD. I know it's far fetched but it would make an awesome TL if done right imho.
 
What's the evidence/

Vinland saga describes a ceremony led by a Seithe woman (shamaness) and the efforts to get one Christian woman to participate for the good of the community (she'd apprenticed in the craft as a child). The context of the incident implied a large pagan majority in East Settlement in Greenland at the time.
 
Why would Vinland remain pagan when nowhere else did in the Norse World?

Also, even Erik's wife was a Christian, which doesn't bode well for Norse paganism. (I love that the Sagas claim she withheld sex because he was a bloody pagan, but that's neither her enor there).
My perspective on this is that at that point in time, Christians weren't yet the majority in Iceland, so neither would the initial group gathered to settle there by Erik the Red and his family. Christians would form a minority of the initial group.

From there, Vinland (particularly without a settled Greenland existing at such a time) is beyond the range for viable trade in things with the volume-value ratio Iceland was dependent on for imports, and largely have the ability to produce those sorts of things, compared to Iceland where that was impossible. The Christianization of Iceland being forced by a threatened trade embargo, this makes such hard to replicate in Vinland.

They're also beyond the range of reasonable military intervention for that era. Even if you could get people across in that period, you weren't getting an army across without suffering ungodly attrition before you even arrive.

Being surrounded by and sometimes assimilating (with varying degrees of violence) pagan natives who look upon the Norse faith as somewhat familiar, it might make a practical statement of not antagonizing the natives even more.

And lastly, an idea that my mind insists would bear weight in such a TL:
Upon the declared Christianization of Iceland, a group of Icelanders unfavorable enough to Christianity to flee from it sets out for Vinland, landing with enough people for their kind, the vehemently pagan, to take the majority.
Perhaps they even engage in some fearful religiously motivated violence, attacking those among the older settlement they suspect of being christian for a time.
These people stayed put in OTL, I believe, because Greenland was a poor frontier and was largely already taken anyways. Much less Greenland than Vinland.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.
(I also like to imagine that what we call Vinland in context of the Norse would instead get the name Greenland from Erik)
 
I think getting some Christians in the group is basically inevitable no matter how early they leave, primarily because it doesn't seem to have been as great a source of conflict among the people as is often assumed. Iceland did not break out into a religious war following the "official" conversion, and in the history of Norway individual Christians and pagans frequently found themselves on the same side of a conflict for family, political, or personal reasons. It's difficult for me to imagine a Norse colonization group so viciously hostile to Christians that none would be allowed to settle among them, particularly in a situation in which labor is so badly needed. Norse society was so intensely familial that it seems wildly implausible for pagan settlers to turn their own kin away just because that kin happens to be Christian.

That said, Vinland is a long way from Christendom. Greenland struggled to import the things it needed for the maintenance of the faith and frequently went bishop-less; Vinland is going to be even more difficult to keep within the ecumenical sphere. I don't think it's very plausible to have a totally non-Christian Vinland, but some kind of syncretic or schismatic position seems quite possible over time, particularly given that Vinland itself is going to be surrounded by native "pagans" who, if peaceful contact is maintained, are going to be influencing the Norse in unforeseen ways.

IMO, the window for Vinland is narrow. Too early, and you still have too many good opportunities in Europe - a still-burgeoning Viking Age, land that still needs farming in Iceland, and so on. Too late, and royal consolidation makes a "private enterprise" like Karlsefni's less and less likely (barring some harebrained royal initiative).

I've always thought the best time was around the reign of Olaf the Saint in Norway, who was so despised by the magnates of the country that they drove him out in favor of Cnut and then killed him when he tried to come back. If Olaf wins at Stiklestad, or Erling Skjalgsson doesn't take an axe to the brain and helps Olaf hold off Knut the Great, life suddenly becomes very difficult for chiefs like Thorir Hund of Bjarkarey.* Alternately, you could have things go wrong in the reign of Olaf's son Magnus, who was apparently known as "the Good" for not taking vengeance on his father's killers, but could instead become "Magnus the Bad" and decide they all need to be flayed. That's a pretty good reason to start packing.

*(I've always thought Thorir was an especially attractive prospective Vinland-er: He's a powerful chief, his son is married to a daughter of Snorri Godi, the greatest Icelandic chieftain of his day, and he was renowned for his voyages to Bjarmaland above the Arctic Circle, which seems like it would be good practice for a similar voyage westward. He's also, incidentally, a pagan.)
 

Driftless

Donor
..... I don't think it's very plausible to have a totally non-Christian Vinland, but some kind of syncretic or schismatic position seems quite possible over time, particularly given that Vinland itself is going to be surrounded by native "pagans" who, if peaceful contact is maintained, are going to be influencing the Norse in unforeseen ways.

That's a timeline unto itself right there. Completely speculative, but it could be an interesting development. A likely successful Vinland expands beyond the Maritimes, so there would be even more exposure/adaptation to local beliefs.
 
IF regular, persistent contact & trade is maintained with Vinland from Iceland/Europe, then it would seem unlikely paganism would survive, as the pressure to convert/stay Christian would remain. If however we end up with little or no regular contact/trade, then it is possible that the lack of pressure changes thing.

It could also introduce a tendency to heterodoxy into the Christian part of the community. I don't imagine it would take too long for a small community to adopt odd views if they have little in the way of trained clergy and little or no prospect of more being sent out.
 

Driftless

Donor
Could you imagine the reaction of a late arriving Tribunal of the Holy Office of the (Spanish) Inquisition to a long adapted (400+ years) North American form(s) of Christianity?
 
Another thing that must be considered is the location of "Vinland" itself and whether it remains christain and or pagan or a mix. The more in need of defence (ie numbers to hold back the natives should conflict arrive) the more likely it will christainize (ie, draw settlers in from greenland/iceland).

Personally, i would think that if they settle upon a small island off of southern newfoundland, or newbrunswick, would be the best bet to keep the community mostly pagan. Isolated. They can control the whole island (less oppertunity for conflict to arise). More defensible (with their ships they will "rule" the gulf of st. lawrence, so to speak).

P.E.I. would actually be the ideal location for a theoretical vinland to be founded. Big enough to offer the necessities (good soil and timber and fresh water), but small enough that the Norse can quickly "wipe out/force out/assimilate the native population. Not sure about bog iron on the island itself, but the nearby mainland will offer enough of that (along with copper and small amounts of gold).

And if/when they control the entire island of P.E.I... well, that's a nice foundation for a small Norse Kingdom (akin to the Shetlands or Isle of Mann, etc). From that foothold they can easily expand to other islands in the gulf, and to strategic points on the mainland.

My two cents anyways. Cheers.

PS - me thinks i want to write this TL. Anyone be interested in reading it?
 

Driftless

Donor
Another thing that must be considered is the location of "Vinland" itself and whether it remains christain and or pagan or a mix. The more in need of defence (ie numbers to hold back the natives should conflict arrive) the more likely it will christainize (ie, draw settlers in from greenland/iceland).

Personally, i would think that if they settle upon a small island off of southern newfoundland, or newbrunswick, would be the best bet to keep the community mostly pagan. Isolated. They can control the whole island (less oppertunity for conflict to arise). More defensible (with their ships they will "rule" the gulf of st. lawrence, so to speak).

P.E.I. would actually be the ideal location for a theoretical vinland to be founded. Big enough to offer the necessities (good soil and timber and fresh water), but small enough that the Norse can quickly "wipe out/force out/assimilate the native population. Not sure about bog iron on the island itself, but the nearby mainland will offer enough of that (along with copper and small amounts of gold).

And if/when they control the entire island of P.E.I... well, that's a nice foundation for a small Norse Kingdom (akin to the Shetlands or Isle of Mann, etc). From that foothold they can easily expand to other islands in the gulf, and to strategic points on the mainland.

My two cents anyways. Cheers.

PS - me thinks i want to write this TL. Anyone be interested in reading it?

I'm looking forward to reading it!
 
Another thing that must be considered is the location of "Vinland" itself and whether it remains christain and or pagan or a mix. The more in need of defence (ie numbers to hold back the natives should conflict arrive) the more likely it will christainize (ie, draw settlers in from greenland/iceland).

Personally, i would think that if they settle upon a small island off of southern newfoundland, or newbrunswick, would be the best bet to keep the community mostly pagan. Isolated. They can control the whole island (less oppertunity for conflict to arise). More defensible (with their ships they will "rule" the gulf of st. lawrence, so to speak).

P.E.I. would actually be the ideal location for a theoretical vinland to be founded. Big enough to offer the necessities (good soil and timber and fresh water), but small enough that the Norse can quickly "wipe out/force out/assimilate the native population. Not sure about bog iron on the island itself, but the nearby mainland will offer enough of that (along with copper and small amounts of gold).

And if/when they control the entire island of P.E.I... well, that's a nice foundation for a small Norse Kingdom (akin to the Shetlands or Isle of Mann, etc). From that foothold they can easily expand to other islands in the gulf, and to strategic points on the mainland.

My two cents anyways. Cheers.

PS - me thinks i want to write this TL. Anyone be interested in reading it?
Well, I'm definitely interested in reading a 'Norse America, the Norsewest Passage, and the Pacific Norsewest' timeline.
 
While I will start another thread for a Vinland TL and keep this one for discussion, I will post a bit of writing here. A tidbit of what is to come. Be warned, this bit of writing is raw and unedited, and badly written. It is as much ideas as actually story... nevertheless enjoy (the actually TL will be edited. I swear it! lol)



Part One​

In the late spring of 985 AD, Erick the Red set out from Greenland with twenty-five ships and around 700 colonists to settle Greenland. With them went livestock, including cattle and horses, sheep and goats, and pigs, along with all the tools and necessities to build a new home.

While crossing the narrow strip of ocean between Iceland and Greenland, the sea began to boil and roll, and a great many ships were lost (13-17, or so various historical records tell). The cause of this maelstrom is unknown, lost to history. The most likely cause was either an underwater volcano erupting, or else an under water earthquake. For the Norse were expert sailors of the northern waters, and the sagas recount this was something far worse than a mere storm or freak wave.

Whatever the cause, the effect was that at least half of the initial colonists were either killed or forced to turn back, their fates also lost to the dust of history.

Now let me guide you into a world, a history, where things went slightly different. Where several of those ships lost to the waves were instead veered off course, driven first south by the turbulence and then southwest by a sudden North Atlantic spring storm…


~

Olaf Thorson lunged with the strength and speed of his lost youth, and managed to grab the unsuspecting gull between his large, calloused hands. With a quick twist, the bird was dead and he quickly slit its flesh, feeding its still warm blood to his wife and his three young sons. The guts he saved to bait hooks with.

It had been three weeks since they had left Iceland, following Erick the Red for Greenland when the maelstrom struck. The Gods had shunned them for some reason, driving them south into the endless sea of worms, and for three weeks their had been no wind. Enough rain had fallen to keep themselves and their starving animals alive, and they had caught just enough fish to supplement their diminishing food reserves. Nevertheless, things were becoming grim.

Worse yet, dark clouds were once more building to the north and east.

Another storm. More bad luck.

How did we piss off the Gods?

Olaf shook his head, slowly walking the length of his ship, listening to the grumbling of passengers and the creaking timbers alike. Six ships had been driven south by the Gods and another six lost to the Sea Gods. May Odin have pity upon them.

Olaf eyed the advancing storm front and grimaced.

He prayed to Odin that he would have the strength to guide the ship and his family to safety. To land. Wherever those lands be, he did not care. He just prayed – demanded – that he see shore once more…


~

For three days the storms lashed the ships, sending them westwards, driven by both the winds and currents alike. Then, abruptly, the storm ceased on the forth morning and was replaced by a dense fog.

“Tis bad luck,” one old man with a large white beard spoke as Olaf strolled past. “I worry something lurks in the deep.”

“The only thing you have to worry about lurking around is your wife.”

The old man laughed. “Aye. She be a feisty –”

“Land!” a shout came from top of the mast. Olaf looked skywards. A young lad had crawled up the rigging and post that managed to just protrude above the fog. “By the Gods grace, I see land!”

“Praise be upon Odin,” the old man smiled, grimacing, as he rose to his feet.

“Praise be upon him indeed.”

Neither man spoke of the ship that had been lost in the storm or of the thirty or so passengers aboard it.


~


They sailed past a rock headland on their southern flank that in another time and place would be known as Cape Breton Island. High, rocky cliffs loomed over low, pebble beaches. Above the cliffs stood tuffs of yellowing grass and beyond that, dark pines and spruces. Gulls cried out as they circled above. Ahead, a small pod of whales crested, exhaled, and then dove.

“I’ve never seen such beautiful land,” Olaf’s wife Thorfinna said as she moved to stand beside her husband.


“Aye, it certainly is a new land. I wonder where we are?”

They sailed on. That evening they entered a small cove off a larger bay that in another time would be known as Aspey Bay, near the northern tip of Cape Breton Island. Here, in the protected tidal marsh that was almost a lake, they beached their ships and unloaded their animals. The poor, half starved beasts feasted on the lush salt grass and lapped at the crystal clean water from the half dozen streams that entered the cove.

Olaf ordered men to stand watch over the animals and others to guard their camp as tents were erected, while yet others were sent out to scout the surrounding land before darkness fell.

Several young lads began to spear salmon in the largest of the streams.

“I do not know where we be,” Thorfinna said, “But I could raise our sons here.”

“Aye, this is a plentiful land.” Olaf nodded. “Look how early it gets dark here, we must have travelled far to the south.”

“Could this be the land of the Franks?”

“No. Too far west we have come. We –”

A shout came as several young lads bounded from the trees. Strung between them upon a sapling was a young buck. Olaf grinned. “Real food at last. Come, let us eat, wife. Then later we will celebrate in our tent. Alone.”

~

The five ships and their 168 men, women, and children camped for six days in the bay that became known as Hop, or Hope, in our Saxonish tongue. They feasted upon fresh fish and deer, clams, and crabs, and even a few seals taken by adventurous young lads out in the bay upon the ship’s skiffs. Repairs were made to hauls and sails alike. The second day were marked by the finding of wild grape vines, though the berries were far from ripe. Even their animals began to gain weight again.

Happy talk flooded the camp. There was talk that they should call this place home. Greenland be forsaken, for no land could be better than this bay.

That was, until three young teenagers came tumbling from the woods on the seventh morning, dragging their fourth friend by his arms. Olaf heard the commotion, grabbed his battle-axe, and rushed forwards along with several men wielding spears.

Before anyone could say anything, Olaf noted the fourth lad was dead.

It was not hard to tell how the boy died. Three arrow stubs protruded from his chest. The third lad was nursing a deep cut on his arm. All three surviving lads looked worse for wear.

“We. Were. Attacked.” The wounded lad blurted out.

Dark haired men, dressed in skins. A hunting party. We surprised them. They fired at us. We shot our arrows back and then ran. I don’t know why they shot at us.”

Olaf nodded. He turned towards the nearby men. “Break camp. Load the ships. Hurry.”

Most men rushed off to obey. A few faltered. “Should we not avenge the dead boy?”

“Against an unknown number of foes? In an unknown land? No. My first concern is my family and ship, and my people. Each captain and crew can do as they wish, but I am leaving.”

Within the hour, the five ships were sailing first north and then west once more, rounding a headland. The coast turned southwards once more. A stiff breeze was blowing them westwards and Olaf allowed it to take course. He watched as the beautiful, bountiful land slipped from sight…

~

Two days later they sighted land once more. After carefully scouting around the shoreline before making landfall they noted that this land was actually an archipelago of small islands. Islands that would be known as Isles de la Madeleine in another time.

This time they anchored in a small, protected cove before sending a small, armed party ashore with mail and weapons and shields. The men spent three days ashore, scouting the entire island for any sign of foes. The reported that there were no traces of humans upon the island and that there was a better cove up the coast, with a small river and a large tidal marsh where their animals could graze.

Olaf nodded at the news and then smiled.

“I think we could call this home…”
 
That's a timeline unto itself right there. Completely speculative, but it could be an interesting development.

Well, as long as I'm speculating wildly... :p

Consider that the blurring of Christian and Norse myths was already a thing. As an example, take the Niðrstigningarsaga, the Norse version of Christ's "Harrowing of Hell" as found in the apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus. The harrowing of hell seems to have been a popular story among the Norse, perhaps because it reads rather like a daring raid by Jesus against Satan, the King of Hell, to free the righteous dead - it's a deed by the Christian savior that actually seems like something a Norse hero would do.

The Niðrstigningarsaga describes Satan as Hell's chieftain, served by giants and trolls; he turns into a world-encircling serpent, like Jormungand (literally "Miðgarðsormr") and the fishing of Jormungand accomplished by Thor is ascribed to Christ instead. The convocation of the saints in the Gospel of Nicodemus becomes a "great army" in the Niðrstigningarsaga. In another Norse-translated bible story, after his crucifixion Christ smashes the head of Satan with a very Thor-like "ringing hammer."

That translation and others like it (which obviously took enormous liberties with the source material) were probably intended to make Christianity more accessible to a newly converted population which was still more familiar with the old myths than the new ones. That kind of "paganized" gospel story eventually becomes unnecessary - and unacceptable - as Scandinavia is more integrated into the Christian world; if someone were to publish the Niðrstigningarsaga as an original work in Europe in the 15th century I feel like he might get in trouble. If such an integration doesn't happen to Vinland, however, due to the rarity and difficulty of travel, you might get a very different result.

Syncretic faiths were also produced in the Native American world that likewise adapted old figures and myths to a Christian framework. The "Handsome Lake" religion, begun among the Seneca around 1800 and inspired by contact with Quakers, was based on a Christian structure (one god, a devil, heaven and hell, an apocalypse) but conflated Jesus with a local divine figure, continued pre-Christian rituals and holy days, and turned pre-Christian Seneca deities into angels of God.

It's whole-cloth speculation, sure, but I don't see it as implausible that certain conditions could lead to a substantially adulterated Christianity, in which God/Odin are conflated and the resulting god is attended to by a conglomerated lesser pantheon of saints, Norse gods, and kings/heroes (not to mention figures from neighboring Skraeling myth). The "Thorification" of Christ continues, and you get yourself a true heterodox figure: the son of the (All-)Father, a "righteous warrior" Jesus, hammer-wielding and serpent-crushing, with his disciples/saints taking the role of his loyal hirð.
 
So what we're looking at, Bavarian, is something where part of the half-through-three quarters of Erik the Red's colonization group that was historically lost ends up in the Magdalens (At the maximum extent, like 450ish people?), settling there, right?

Presumably, the discovery of Vinland by Leif Erikson and the failed flirtations with settlement happen as OTL, the Norsemen settled on the smaller islands staying too far south at that point in time to be spotted by the expeditions, leaving Icelanders to eventually hit the historical point of having too little lumber to sail to the New World without ever contacting them.

An ideal divergence for locking out Christianizing influences.

Maybe they acquire lumber in excess of what the archipelago produces by sailing west to Anticosti Island when the natives aren't hunting there.
 
Last edited:

Driftless

Donor
While I will start another thread for a Vinland TL and keep this one for discussion, I will post a bit of writing here. A tidbit of what is to come. Be warned, this bit of writing is raw and unedited, and badly written. It is as much ideas as actually story... nevertheless enjoy (the actually TL will be edited. I swear it! lol)

Great start!
 

Driftless

Donor
Well, as long as I'm speculating wildly... :p

Consider that the blurring of Christian and Norse myths was already a thing. As an example, take the Niðrstigningarsaga, the Norse version of Christ's "Harrowing of Hell" as found in the apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus. The harrowing of hell seems to have been a popular story among the Norse, perhaps because it reads rather like a daring raid by Jesus against Satan, the King of Hell, to free the righteous dead - it's a deed by the Christian savior that actually seems like something a Norse hero would do.

The Niðrstigningarsaga describes Satan as Hell's chieftain, served by giants and trolls; he turns into a world-encircling serpent, like Jormungand (literally "Miðgarðsormr") and the fishing of Jormungand accomplished by Thor is ascribed to Christ instead. The convocation of the saints in the Gospel of Nicodemus becomes a "great army" in the Niðrstigningarsaga. In another Norse-translated bible story, after his crucifixion Christ smashes the head of Satan with a very Thor-like "ringing hammer."

That translation and others like it (which obviously took enormous liberties with the source material) were probably intended to make Christianity more accessible to a newly converted population which was still more familiar with the old myths than the new ones. That kind of "paganized" gospel story eventually becomes unnecessary - and unacceptable - as Scandinavia is more integrated into the Christian world; if someone were to publish the Niðrstigningarsaga as an original work in Europe in the 15th century I feel like he might get in trouble. If such an integration doesn't happen to Vinland, however, due to the rarity and difficulty of travel, you might get a very different result.

Syncretic faiths were also produced in the Native American world that likewise adapted old figures and myths to a Christian framework. The "Handsome Lake" religion, begun among the Seneca around 1800 and inspired by contact with Quakers, was based on a Christian structure (one god, a devil, heaven and hell, an apocalypse) but conflated Jesus with a local divine figure, continued pre-Christian rituals and holy days, and turned pre-Christian Seneca deities into angels of God.

It's whole-cloth speculation, sure, but I don't see it as implausible that certain conditions could lead to a substantially adulterated Christianity, in which God/Odin are conflated and the resulting god is attended to by a conglomerated lesser pantheon of saints, Norse gods, and kings/heroes (not to mention figures from neighboring Skraeling myth). The "Thorification" of Christ continues, and you get yourself a true heterodox figure: the son of the (All-)Father, a "righteous warrior" Jesus, hammer-wielding and serpent-crushing, with his disciples/saints taking the role of his loyal hirð.

For a warrior culture, the ideas you outline make sense to me. You would have a very hard time prosletizing the "turn the other cheek" version of Christianity to that group of folks.

The early Christians tweaked festival days to conform to or offset pagan festivals, so there was a long established track record of some level of adaptation. Also, I beleive St Patrick was adept at making practical and useful connections with local beliefs and Christianity.

Trouble would come into play later(maybe much later), I'm thinking when the colony were more established and whenever it came in contact with mainstream church hierarchy. As we all know, the mainstream church of the Middle Ages through the Reformation wasn't at all tolerant of "heresy". Much of the gasoline poured on that fire was regional power politics wrapped in a shiny coat of sanctimony
 
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