Vinland - Viable immigration opportunities

[judman]

Well then, fire-breathing, cod-fishing Norse might have some actual potential then? Anybody manage a good timeline doing that yet? I mean, I imagine successful Vinland is a relatively popular topic here.

 

[Driftless]

Beaver, mink, skunk!, fox, otter, racoon and other pelts as a trade good back to Europe? Nice soft buckskin hides?

There's also some native copper and high grade lead ore (galena) in the western great lakes, so a bit of hike to get there, and maybe not the greatest demand back in Europe.

 

[twovultures]

Leptospirosis is rat-transmittable and can linger in the local fauna to kick off repeated outbreaks. It's thought this was the plague that took out the Wampanoag and other *Massachusetts Amerind nations OTL.

I've had that idea too, perhaps have it clear out what will become the settlement of Hop (placed in southern Newfoundland, the Maritimes, or Maine depending on which historian you ask) or another site so the Norse can have a permanent settlement which will not be attacked. But the Norse had plenty of land to settle in Greenland, it's not why they visited Vinland.

Getting them to stay will require them to get wealth. Tobacco has been mentioned as a possibility, but IIRC OTL's commercially viable tobacco was a crossbreed of North American and Caribbean cultivars. The Norse would give up before reaching the Caribbean if they weren't getting money, so they and the Europeans they trade with will need to get in the habit of smoking the same plants that the 17th century British rejected as an inferior product. Another possibility is making wine from North American berries-they don't need to do this on a large scale, just enough that a small settlement can make a living selling their product to Iceland.

 

[Billybadass]

I'm thinking of one of two major events as being the POD and both involve the Khazars surviving intact and belligerent toward the Rus until Genghis invades. This will weaken the Rus by strangling Middle Eastern/Byzantine trade via the Volga/Dnieper causing the Northern European trade paradigm to shift focus. Thoughts?

 

[Sir Chaos]

I've had that idea too, perhaps have it clear out what will become the settlement of Hop (placed in southern Newfoundland, the Maritimes, or Maine depending on which historian you ask) or another site so the Norse can have a permanent settlement which will not be attacked. But the Norse had plenty of land to settle in Greenland, it's not why they visited Vinland.

Greenland was very, very marginal for growing crops and raising animals - especially the ones the Norse were accustomed to as part of their lifestyle.

If the Greenland Norse decided to maintain a permanent presence in Vinland, in order to procure timber for the Greenland colony, maybe to supplement food production, and this permanent presence lasts until the Medieval Warm Period ends, I think it is possible that either the Greenland Norse (or some of them, in any case) evacuate Greenland for Vinland, or that the Vinland settlement is self-sufficent enough to survive once the Greenland settlements are no longer in a shape to maintain regular contact with Vinland.

 

[Driftless]

What level of ship building timber existed in Iceland & Greenland during that era, especially compared to spots within easy enough reach of the original Vinland settlements?

For permanent settlement (for seafarers anyway) they'd also need fiber sources for ropes & sails

 

[Agricola]

The Vikings used to be fearless explorers, always looking for new opportunities for raids or trade. Now imagine just 1 longboat makes it to Mid-America and back home with the news about GOLD. You bet, that a few years later lots of boats would be on their way south. And therefore they need a base in North-America. Vinland is obvious, because it already exists. But it will loose importance over time to colonies further south.

Of course in this case, the european colonization of America just starts 500 years earlier, and driven by the Vikings. Just a bit different, but not that much. The cold period, which led to the decolonization of Greenland will change nothing, once mid-america was found. But due to technology restrictions the northern route would stay popular for a long time.

PS: perhaps some Vikings made it as far as Yucatan. But ended on an altar without their heart. Not everybody was as clever as Cortez. We will never know.

 

[RGB]

Greenland was very, very marginal for growing crops and raising animals - especially the ones the Norse were accustomed to as part of their lifestyle.

If the Greenland Norse decided to maintain a permanent presence in Vinland, in order to procure timber for the Greenland colony, maybe to supplement food production, and this permanent presence lasts until the Medieval Warm Period ends, I think it is possible that either the Greenland Norse (or some of them, in any case) evacuate Greenland for Vinland, or that the Vinland settlement is self-sufficent enough to survive once the Greenland settlements are no longer in a shape to maintain regular contact with Vinland.

That's pretty much OTL from what I've recently read.

 

[Sir Chaos]

That's pretty much OTL from what I've recently read.

The way I understand OTL developments, the Greenland Vikings abandoned their Vinland outposts when things got to the point that they could not keep up regular traffic, and/or they judged regular traffic to no longer be worth it.

I propose doing it the other way around - gradually abandon Greenland to set up in Vinland.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

A long while ago I briefly participated in a post 1000 AD Vinland thread that was more realistic than one might expect. I'm thinking of working one up again by myself.

Unfortunately I'm having trouble identifying ways to increase Vinland population to the point of having any lasting impact when the major European powers start active colonization of the New World.

In short, I want to do a realistic "wank", but in the waning Viking Age with opportunities in Russia, Ireland, and Scotland, how the heck can I get Vikings, or Swedes, or even Irish, Scots, and Slavs to get on a boat and move to a world light years away?

Religious persecution? Economic opportunity? A sudden incursion into Rusland from an eastern enemy?

You don't really need ANY immigration from Europe, actually.

Quebec and New England, for instance, grew at about 3%/year natural increase, which works out to doubling every 25 years or so.

Start with a thousand settlers from Iceland in the year 1000 and you could have a population of 1 BILLION Vinlanders by 1500. OK, so by that point, the rate of increase would have slowed massively, and there'd be a couple of epidemics that wiped out half the population but you could have millions, or tens of millions of people in Vinland by 1500 without a single immigrant from continental Europe, and without making a significant dent in Iceland's population.

Power of powers, people.

Some native varieties of tobacco exist in NA and tobacco was a major trade good OTL. It's the most likely option I can think of seeing as how addictive products make their own markets. I can easily see Vikings getting into "breathing fire" as a pastime.

Of course, North American tobacco that grows that far north is pretty darn rough. I don't see anyone getting addicted to it. There's a reason natives didn't use it daily, but rather ceremonially.

 

[Driftless]

What should a longer run/permanent Vinland start with for a sustainable agricultural model? This is the Viking era combo platter from Iceland:

The Norsemen were pastoral people who relied heavily on a succession of successful farming years in order to survive. Norwegian settlers who inhabited the coasts of Iceland in the late ninth century brought their farming traditions with them.[6]

The settlers brought sheep, cattle, horses, and goats from Norway to supply their farms with animals.[7] Every animal served a purpose on the farm; sheep were valuable because of their ability to graze outside in the winter and they provided food and wool.[8] Cattle supplied most of the dairy products for the farm, which were stored over winter. Cattle were also eaten.[9]

Viking farmers relied heavily on the natural pastures that encompassed their farm, but also planted grain, to be harvested for bread and fodder.[10]
Farming in Iceland during the Viking Age was complemented by hunting and gathering along the coast. Coastal areas facilitated fishing, whaling, and hunting.[11] Sea birds, eggs, walrus, and lichens rounded out the Viking diet.[12]

Viking farms had a significant impact on the landscape in Iceland. Widescale erosion began in the land-taking stages of settlement. Coupled with deforestation, this had a profound effect on the landscape of Iceland

There would have been a fair amount of natural overlap for original Vinland settlements in Newfoundland, and probably an expansion of types if they were able to extend down the coast, or up the St Lawrence. i.e. it shouldn't be too difficult to adapt abundant wild ducks to being kept for eggs & meat.

 

[PlotVitalNPC]

You don't really need ANY immigration from Europe, actually.

Quebec and New England, for instance, grew at about 3%/year natural increase, which works out to doubling every 25 years or so.

Start with a thousand settlers from Iceland in the year 1000 and you could have a population of 1 BILLION Vinlanders by 1500. OK, so by that point, the rate of increase would have slowed massively, and there'd be a couple of epidemics that wiped out half the population but you could have millions, or tens of millions of people in Vinland by 1500 without a single immigrant from continental Europe, and without making a significant dent in Iceland's population.

Power of powers, people.


Of course, North American tobacco that grows that far north is pretty darn rough. I don't see anyone getting addicted to it. There's a reason natives didn't use it daily, but rather ceremonially.

Personally, I'm still attached to the 'Erik the Red finds Vinland' POD from the old, OLD thread on this.
Greenland sits as an insignificant walrus hunting post and little more as the Norse spread from St. Pierre and Miquellon to Newfoundland to Quebec and the Maritimes and such.

Pagan norse, at that, because the christianization of Iceland was decades later, Vinland too self sufficient for Norway to economically dominate, and too far away to militarily pressure.

 

[Hierophant]

Harald Hardrada showed interest in finding a northern route to the east. Spending many years in Byzantine gave him first hand experience on how much wealth flowed from the east. He made one expedition north of Russia but had to turn back because of sea ice.

Now let's say you handwave that he wins the English throne 1066. He still has a desire to trade with Cathay and the Indies. He decides this time to try going the other way. He could send several expeditions to Vinland, using it as a forward base to search for the Northwest passage.

In this scenario you would probably have Norse and Anglo-Saxon settlement. Perhaps the ATL 'Harrowing of the South' banishes suspects to Vinland.

 

[Faeelin]

Pagan norse, at that, because the christianization of Iceland was decades later, Vinland too self sufficient for Norway to economically dominate, and too far away to militarily pressure.

Why would Vinland remain pagan when nowhere else did in the Norse World?

Also, even Erik's wife was a Christian, which doesn't bode well for Norse paganism. (I love that the Sagas claim she withheld sex because he was a bloody pagan, but that's neither her enor there).

 

[Guildencrantz]

If I understand correctly, one of the main reasons why the Vinlanders didn't bring a lot of disease with them was because the Natives didn't have as high a population density as they did when Chris C. came over 500 years later. Also, I'm not super sure about this, but weren't the Vikings a bit healthier than other Europeans of the time, since they also weren't as crowded as mainland Europeans?

 

[Kerney]

Unfortunate that Christians were among the first people to reach Vinland, eh?

It would be easy to delay the conversion a decades or even a century or two. Basically the Christians got a couple lucky breaks in the 990s that spread up the conversion by putting a psychopath Christian on the Norwegian throne who blackmailed the Atlantic colonies into conversion by threatening to cut off trade.

Replace this with a slow, Baltic style crusader conversion where Scandinavian pagans have time to respond and organise more effectively, you create push to immigration to go along with the pull of the wealth of Vinland. Give them an "Adama" like inspirational figure and you could have something.

 

[GdwnsnHo]

There could be other viable source groups - even if they are christian - anyone from the British Isles could legit find there way to Vinland, be they Norman, English, Saxon, Welsh, Scottish, Irish - and anyone else who could interact with Vinland for trade purposes. It doesn't just have to be Norse.

Hell, I vaguely remember a Vinland timeline where the New World was seen as a lifeline for all the minority cultures in Europe, if this emerged we could see Basques, Jews, Galicians, Bretons, etc all go there.

Personally, I think it'd be fascinating to see a timeline where Vinland was led by a cunning leader who convinced the Europeans to send him their undesirables, seeing him/her as useful, whilst also portraying him/herself as a liberty figure to those in Vinland. Get that to work in some meaningful way, and history could be all kinds of hilarious. Unusual historical phenomenon - but as long as you can get to migrate to Vinland, there are plenty willing. Hell, the Jewry could even be involved.

 

[Old Airman]

It would be useful to start with limiting the Norsemen's ability to colonize Europe. Surviving Roman Empire, may be? Any scenario when a raiding Viking party is likely to encounter a group of very angry armoured horsemen from a castle nearby, and settling in OTL Danelaw/Normandy/Sicily etc. becomes impossible. Where would all that excessive population go? Well, some of them would go East, so OTL Russia would become much more "Scandinavianized". However, it is highly likely that other would try to go West, hopping from Iceland to Greenland to Labrador/Newfoundland coast. Returnees would tell tales of "land of milk and honey and cod", increasing the flow of immigrants.

 

[Bavarian Raven]

Now let's say you handwave that he wins the English throne 1066. He still has a desire to trade with Cathay and the Indies. He decides this time to try going the other way. He could send several expeditions to Vinland, using it as a forward base to search for the Northwest passage.

Now for a mini-mini TL.

And at the height of the medieval warm period, with their agile, shallow drafted ships and their knowledge of the arctic lands/how to survive there, and a concerted effort...they could certainly navigate the passage.

And then what?

Say they reach the mouth of the Yukon River area around 1020-1050ish ...they might find gold, either in the river itself, or at the beaches of OTL Nome, or see the natives with it. Imagine a 11th century trading post at the mouth of the Yukon... (with expeditions going southwards to explore and harvest lumber, and sea ottar pelts, and copper, etc...).

It'd be a two year journey (one summer there, overwinter, one summer back).

Surely some would decide to settle there. Livestock would be brought. Families born (either with greenland women, or with the local native women, or both).

A small, self containing population could be creative. And with local bog iron, runs of salmon, hunting, fishing, whaling, etc, mixed with farming, food would not be a problem.

Now imagine this population manages to cling on and isn't driven off by the natives (aka friendly trade relations are sustained), and starts to grow.

Two hundred years later, the mini ice age moves in. By this point, the hundred or so "settlers" have grown at a 2-4% pop rate. We could have anywhere between 5000-15000 persons. Numerous farm steads and tiny villages, and hamlets could be dotting the mouth of the Yukon and along the river itself, and possibly on the Alouetian Islands to the south.

Better yet, being so isolated and so far away from Europe, they may even remain pagan D ).

Now comes the mini ice age. They are cut off from Greenland and Europe for the next couple hundred years. (Though the odd brave bunch of souls may attempt the passage and may make it).

By the time Europeans reach this area (Russians most likely, or Spanish/English up the PNW coast), we might have a quasi Norse-Native state (or multiple states) encomposing Parts of Alaska, Eastern most Russia, and maybe bits of BC or the Yukon...

Imagine the butterflies...

 

[PlotVitalNPC]

Now for a mini-mini TL.

And at the height of the medieval warm period, with their agile, shallow drafted ships and their knowledge of the arctic lands/how to survive there, and a concerted effort...they could certainly navigate the passage.

And then what?

Say they reach the mouth of the Yukon River area around 1020-1050ish ...they might find gold, either in the river itself, or at the beaches of OTL Nome, or see the natives with it. Imagine a 11th century trading post at the mouth of the Yukon... (with expeditions going southwards to explore and harvest lumber, and sea ottar pelts, and copper, etc...).

It'd be a two year journey (one summer there, overwinter, one summer back).

Surely some would decide to settle there. Livestock would be brought. Families born (either with greenland women, or with the local native women, or both).

A small, self containing population could be creative. And with local bog iron, runs of salmon, hunting, fishing, whaling, etc, mixed with farming, food would not be a problem.

Now imagine this population manages to cling on and isn't driven off by the natives (aka friendly trade relations are sustained), and starts to grow.

Two hundred years later, the mini ice age moves in. By this point, the hundred or so "settlers" have grown at a 2-4% pop rate. We could have anywhere between 5000-15000 persons. Numerous farm steads and tiny villages, and hamlets could be dotting the mouth of the Yukon and along the river itself, and possibly on the Alouetian Islands to the south.

Better yet, being so isolated and so far away from Europe, they may even remain pagan D ).

Now comes the mini ice age. They are cut off from Greenland and Europe for the next couple hundred years. (Though the odd brave bunch of souls may attempt the passage and may make it).

By the time Europeans reach this area (Russians most likely, or Spanish/English up the PNW coast), we might have a quasi Norse-Native state (or multiple states) encomposing Parts of Alaska, Eastern most Russia, and maybe bits of BC or the Yukon...

Imagine the butterflies...

That would be reverting to paganism, not remaining paganism, given the timeframe of your mini-POD.