US victory in war of 1812 american gains

TFSmith121

Banned
In 1812-15?

Because Britain already did it, and even more, during the american revolution war.

Just to have fun, could you please explain yourself how the US, given the poor state of their military organization and logistics, could sustain a strong force in Canada for a long time ?

In 1812-15?

Hadn't suggested they could.

Not the same as suggesting the British - as demonstrated three times when they invaded US territory in major operations aimed at significant targets in 1814-15 (Plattsburgh, Baltimore, and New Orleans) and failed - would have done any better.

3-1 is the standard ratio expected for an attacker over a defender to succeed; given the British never amassed such a force in any of their attempts at a significant target in 1814-15, all I asked EC for was a) a target and b) when - although c) with what army, commander, fleet, etc would be nice.:rolleyes:

You'll note he has not been able to do so, which suggests much...

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Yes, and it's lacking a few details, isn't it?

My suggestion for an alternate British strategy in 1814 is on page 5. Should take 20 seconds to find it and maybe 5 min to read it.

Happy reading.


Yes, and it's lacking a few details, isn't it? Namely:

Target
Date
Makeup of the Expeditionary forces
Commander
Makeup of the Naval forces

Other than that, it's a war winner.:rolleyes:

Best,
 
Yes, and it's lacking a few details, isn't it? Namely:

Target
Date
Makeup of the Expeditionary forces
Commander
Makeup of the Naval forces

Other than that, it's a war winner.:rolleyes:

Best,

Bear in mind this is in response to the highly detailed OP of

What land does the U.S. get from winning the war of 1812 .
:D

If the circumstances which might provoke a massive British retaliation are clearly outlined then perhaps your question is valid.

But at the moment the USA are operating on handwavium and the British are not (apparently).
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Not my OP, of course

Not my OP, of course; mine tend to have a little more detail.;)

However, EC suggested he had thought of a better strategy for the British in 1814-15, but without even suggesting a target. My expectation is doing so would allow a somewhat more detailed conversation than "British concentration of 20,000 troops somewhere between Maine and Texas = British victory in 1812-15 war."

Best,
 
Yes, and it's lacking a few details, isn't it? Namely:

Target
Date
Makeup of the Expeditionary forces
Commander
Makeup of the Naval forces

Other than that, it's a war winner.:rolleyes:

Best,

I'm pretty sure it mentions a target, two actually. As for the rest, all I have done is suggest a possible British strategy that they could plausibly potentially carry out, nothing more nothing less. I'm not attempting to build a TL out of it.

If you wish to dismiss it out of hand that's fine, but it's not an argument against the idea.
 
Not my OP, of course; mine tend to have a little more detail.;)

However, EC suggested he had thought of a better strategy for the British in 1814-15, but without even suggesting a target. My expectation is doing so would allow a somewhat more detailed conversation than "British concentration of 20,000 troops somewhere between Maine and Texas = British victory in 1812-15 war."

Best,

Texas eh? Little hard for the British to attack Texas when it belongs to Mexico.
 
Recall everyone that in 1813, the was virtually no British presence in NA. Canada was saved mainly by lack of American preparation for war and the great distances involved.

Thomas Jefferson famously boasted that taking Canada was just a matter of marching. Well, it was marching through about 500 miles of wilderness. If there had been a paved road between Boston and Quebec at this point, most of Canada would have been conquered within months.
 
Recall everyone that in 1813, the was virtually no British presence in NA. Canada was saved mainly by lack of American preparation for war and the great distances involved.

Thomas Jefferson famously boasted that taking Canada was just a matter of marching. Well, it was marching through about 500 miles of wilderness. If there had been a paved road between Boston and Quebec at this point, most of Canada would have been conquered within months.

I give the few British regulars and the Canadian fencibles reasonable credit, they fought well on the defensive, while outnumbered, and for one thing captured Winfield Scott. The US Army in 1812-13 was too small, only partially trained compared to European standards and relied entirely too much on militia (large numbers of whom flat out refused to cross the border) to be an effective instrument of war even against the relatively small force available to defend Canada. Better results occurred later in 1813 (at York) but that was really a glorified raid. It wasn't until 1814 that the US Army fielded regulars equal in staying power, discipline and willingness to take casualties as the British, which is shown very clearly at Lundys Lane.

By then the window of opportunity was closed and both sides had essentially parity in numbers as far as forces that could invade the other along the Canadian border. The US never did drive the British out of Maine either, getting it back with the peace treaty.

But that works both ways. The British lacked the numbers, and more importantly, the logistics to mount a successful invasion of the US. The operation aimed at Washington and Baltimore was never meant to be more than a raid because the British lacked those two essential ingredients and also lacked cavalry and artillery in any strength because they lacked the needed horses, mules and oxen needed to haul wagons, guns and mount dragoons or lancers. Nor were the Americans likely to supply them, because after a year of British raids along the Chesapeake the locals were well aware of the importance off keeping the British afoot and limited to as shallow penetration as possible.

Which is the whole problem with the idea of landing 20,000 men in Maryland proposal.

Also, going over a few quick sources (all my decent books on 1812 are in storage) I cannot find any British cavalry regiments assigned to North America at all during this time period. I might have missed something, but even at Lundys Lane, if Drummond had cavalry available to use in its traditional scouting role, he would have found the weakness in the American flank and turned a bloody draw into a possible victory. Since he didn't, I feel safe in assuming that cavalry wasn't available.

So in effect this army proposed by EnglishCanuck would be blind aside from a few mounted officers and lacking in artillery. Without it, assaulting the entrenchments at Baltimore has the excellent chance of being a costly victory like Bunker Hill or just as possibly, an army wrecking defeat as at New Orleans.

The Americans had cavalry. It wasn't of the quality to charge squares or even really function as a battlefield unit, but it was just fine for scouting and skirmishing and raiding. There wasn't much of it, but even a couple of regiments means that along with local civilians, the Americans are going to know what the British are doing on a routine basis. They had no trouble keeping track of the British after Bladensburg for that matter.

If you are going to risk potentially devastating casualties on the relatively elite but oh so limited in numbers British Army, you would be better off attacking something more vital. But the trouble is, the more vital places, like New York, Boston or Philadelphia are far more strongly defended, while less well defended cities like Charleston could be taken, but leave the British facing a hinterland not much more developed than when Cornwallis marched through it in the Revolution.

Although from a ATL standpoint, the a timeline where the British do that, and free slaves as they go, would have potentially dramatic consequences on the South and slavery in America.

But it still wouldn't conquer the US or even force the US to accept a peace that indicated defeat.

Now if the British had attacked New Orleans earlier in 1814, much earlier, while Jackson was still poorly supplied and with a far weaker force, taking that would indeed be an American disaster

But it probably simply would have meant that within a couple of decades the British and Americans fought a third war.
 
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