Do you have a source on this? I'd like to learn more.Maybe I'm just too cynical from my experience of seeing the Equal Rights Amendment failing. Mainly on the grounds of all those state legislators wives being anti-ERA, based on their selfish worries over what effects the ERA would have on divorce laws (alimony).
Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
I, for one, like the idea (at least in principle. Obviously if it somehow leads to things being just as bad, or, somehow, even worse, then no, I don't like it). It can be hard, sometimes, to properly showcase the agency of oppressed people who have very few ways to exercise that agency, but I always like to see it.
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My source is my own memory from living through that period. The proposed Equal Rights Amendment was only able to be passed with an unusual sunset clause. Passed through Congress in 1972, the sunset clause deadline for passage activated in 1982. Staunch opposition by housewives (1) is what effectively killed the amendment in the more conservative state legislatures.
And while technically Virginia became the 38th state to ratify the ERA, constitutional scholars differ on whether it means anything. Some say it does, regardless of the ERA's expiration date. Others say it would be nullified by the fact that five state legislatures have since reversed their adoption of the ERA (hyper-gerrymandering is a plague). Though constitutional scholars ALSO disagree on whether these "revocations" of the adoption of a constitutional amendment are legally valid, either!
1) They were worried about not just alimony, but the possibility of women being drafted, paying alimony themselves, or losing the traditional advantage given to divorcing wives over the issue of child custody.
This position was frankly selfish IMO. But I suppose understandable considering the ratio of men-to-women in the workforce in the Seventies and early Eighties. Plus after the American embassy in Tehran was seized by the mullahs, it looked liked the Draft was actually going to be reinstituted. Selective Service registration was in fact reinstituted (without an active Draft) Starting with people born in the last quarter of 1960. I know. I was one of them.
I didn't think this was recent enough for me to encounter someone who knows about it from personal experience!My source is my own memory from living through that period. The proposed Equal Rights Amendment was only able to be passed with an unusual sunset clause. Passed through Congress in 1972, the sunset clause deadline for passage activated in 1982. Staunch opposition by housewives (1) is what effectively killed the amendment in the more conservative state legislatures.
And while technically Virginia became the 38th state to ratify the ERA, constitutional scholars differ on whether it means anything. Some say it does, regardless of the ERA's expiration date. Others say it would be nullified by the fact that five state legislatures have since reversed their adoption of the ERA (hyper-gerrymandering is a plague). Though constitutional scholars ALSO disagree on whether these "revocations" of the adoption of a constitutional amendment are legally valid, either!
1) They were worried about not just alimony, but the possibility of women being drafted, paying alimony themselves, or losing the traditional advantage given to divorcing wives over the issue of child custody.
This position was frankly selfish IMO. But I suppose understandable considering the ratio of men-to-women in the workforce in the Seventies and early Eighties. Plus after the American embassy in Tehran was seized by the mullahs, it looked liked the Draft was actually going to be reinstituted. Selective Service registration was in fact reinstituted (without an active Draft) Starting with people born in the last quarter of 1960. I know. I was one of them.
I can't believe I missed the last 3 chapters
Anyways Red you did a great job
I wish I could say that eloquently but that's it.you wrote an excellent timeline that will stay with me my whole life .
In the beginning I mentioned that I often day dreamed of the civil war.Well now whenever I do this timeline will be a part of it.
thank you
Anyways Red you did a great job
I wish I could say that eloquently but that's it.you wrote an excellent timeline that will stay with me my whole life .
In the beginning I mentioned that I often day dreamed of the civil war.Well now whenever I do this timeline will be a part of it.
thank you
The war is officially over and now the Union has to win the peace. That is pretty depressing since like they fought so hard and now they facing a new battle in peacetime.
The hangman or firing squads sound like they were busy for a good time with all the traitors. I assuming the n numbers of exiles would be increasing even more as the South is restructure and most of those plantations are divided.
Damn those estimates of casualties is shocking. The South almost feel like Paraguay after the triple alliance war. Especially as you wonder how much of young men and younger boys were lost to the war, famine or disease. Oddly enough Iroh's song leaves of the vine might be fitting for all the fallen boys dragged into this war by force.
The Second American revolution truly was a changing point for the Union of TL. Nothing ever going to be the same again.
On a sidenote Alexander Stephens spending his exile poor and having to do gigs or minimum wage jobs to survive is nice. I hope other rebel exiles have a hard time as well.
The hangman or firing squads sound like they were busy for a good time with all the traitors. I assuming the n numbers of exiles would be increasing even more as the South is restructure and most of those plantations are divided.
Damn those estimates of casualties is shocking. The South almost feel like Paraguay after the triple alliance war. Especially as you wonder how much of young men and younger boys were lost to the war, famine or disease. Oddly enough Iroh's song leaves of the vine might be fitting for all the fallen boys dragged into this war by force.
The Second American revolution truly was a changing point for the Union of TL. Nothing ever going to be the same again.
On a sidenote Alexander Stephens spending his exile poor and having to do gigs or minimum wage jobs to survive is nice. I hope other rebel exiles have a hard time as well.
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The thought of Stephens selling miracle cures for baldness and the 19th century equivalent of the shake weight makes me so damn happy I can cry
IOTL Brownlow formed the Tennessee State Guard to enforce his vision of reconstruction/suppress former confederates. You have the Kirk Holden War in North Carolina , Liberty Place in Louisiana , and god knows how many other “battles” ( racist massacres ) throughout the south. Going to be interesting to see them or their equivalents with a Union that actually means it and a not so unified lost cause/ redeemer movement.
And with people like Forrest and Hampton worm food, groups like the klan and Red Shirts are gonna be interesting. Forrest didn’t found the klan but was a figurehead/ leader but without Hampton and Ben Tillman ( 😆) the red shirts in South Carolina wont have two main leaders.
ETA: I’m assuming it was Early who forced children into the army. I hope his hanging was botched
Needless to say I am excited for the next part @Red_Galiray .
And with people like Forrest and Hampton worm food, groups like the klan and Red Shirts are gonna be interesting. Forrest didn’t found the klan but was a figurehead/ leader but without Hampton and Ben Tillman ( 😆) the red shirts in South Carolina wont have two main leaders.
ETA: I’m assuming it was Early who forced children into the army. I hope his hanging was botched
Needless to say I am excited for the next part @Red_Galiray .
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Yeah. Most Confederates who fled to Mexico were not committed at all to Max's cause. Republican success and Johnson's policies assured the prompt return of most, and here they'll probably try to flee Mexico. Heck, some common soldiers might come to believe that Lincoln would be more merciful than Juarez, since execution and punishment is usually reserved for either war criminals or leading rebels.The sad truth of it is as I have pondered the matter is that Benito Juarez at least won't even have the opportunity to hand over troublesome ex-Confederates. AISI, I doubt very much that such people would ever allow themselves to fall into the hands of the armed forces of the Republic of Mexico. They'll stick with Max until they have to flee the country IMO.
I agree with you now-in part-about Lincoln not wanting to have to deal with exiled ex-Confederates. (1) However, I DO foresee an exception to this. Domestic political forces within the US (North AND South!) will demand the extradition of the Junta leaders (2), at the very least. And I doubt Lincoln would throw away the opportunity to score political points with angry mobs demanding justice (and vengeance).
1) Particularly those anti-Junta ex-Confederates who managed to flee the country. Though NOT those who fled to the Union (who could count on a friendly reception), but rather to Mexico or by sea to other foreign nations.
2) And the worst of their fellow travellers.
EDIT: Actually, there was a very good John Wayne/Rock Hudson film (The Undefeated-1969) fictionalizing the story of Confederate major general Joseph Shelby's flight to Mexico. In the film, the "Shelby-like" character played by Rock Hudson, upon reaching the Mexican Army, found to his horror that he and his people had fallen into the hands of the Mexican Republican Army!
IRL, Shelby was able to reach Max, who wasn't interested in Shelby's offer. Seems even Max had SOME standards. Including his refusal to foist the institution of Slavery upon Mexico.
Again, I think the only one who is likely to be hunted down is Beauregard, especially if the Republicans are convinced/convince themselves that he's still a threat. Your first point is spot on, since some did decide to flee the Confederacy but could not bring themselves to surrender to the Union.
For what it's worth, IOTL Commodore Maury managed to get himself appointed as Max's commissioner for colonization, and Max did go as far as taking land from peasants to give it to the Confederates, but he didn't go as far as restoring slavery. Consequently, when they brought enslaved people with them they simply fled, the Mexican government unwilling to force them to work.
It'll all be better in the end but we may some rough patches first. In any case, I still hesitate to examine the issue deeply since that's just not my area.
I definitely missed your comments! Thank you for your kind support, your words mean a lot
It's certainly a hard truth to swallow that the rebels admitting they were defeated in no way constituted an admission that their cause was wrong. A harder fight begins now.
Many more planters will be compelled to leave the South, because for their class it's all downhill from here. And yes, the losses are dreadful, the kind that scar a generation and the national memory forever.
The majority of rebels are likely to be having a bad time. They have never worked a day in their lives after all, the bunch of enslavers. They are now in the situation @Salurian described a long time ago:
I've been laying the foundation for that with the paramilitary Union League and the Federal National Guard and Constabulary as the ones who'll have to enforce Reconstruction against such terrorists. They are, as you note acutely, bound to be much weaker since IOTL groups like the Red Shirts or the Klan drew strength from community leaders, wealthy planters, and former Confederate leaders. Without them, they have lost a key source of morale, rhetoric, and leadership, which coupled with a stronger Black community and more decided Federal government should result in a better result. As for Early, yes, he impressed children at one point, but the main charge in his trial was war crimes for having burned some Northern towns in his raid. And, thank you! I appreciate your support
You’ve set the bar for sure .Yeah. Most Confederates who fled to Mexico were not committed at all to Max's cause. Republican success and Johnson's policies assured the prompt return of most, and here they'll probably try to flee Mexico. Heck, some common soldiers might come to believe that Lincoln would be more merciful than Juarez, since execution and punishment is usually reserved for either war criminals or leading rebels.
Again, I think the only one who is likely to be hunted down is Beauregard, especially if the Republicans are convinced/convince themselves that he's still a threat. Your first point is spot on, since some did decide to flee the Confederacy but could not bring themselves to surrender to the Union.
For what it's worth, IOTL Commodore Maury managed to get himself appointed as Max's commissioner for colonization, and Max did go as far as taking land from peasants to give it to the Confederates, but he didn't go as far as restoring slavery. Consequently, when they brought enslaved people with them they simply fled, the Mexican government unwilling to force them to work.
It'll all be better in the end but we may some rough patches first. In any case, I still hesitate to examine the issue deeply since that's just not my area.
I definitely missed your comments! Thank you for your kind support, your words mean a lot
It's certainly a hard truth to swallow that the rebels admitting they were defeated in no way constituted an admission that their cause was wrong. A harder fight begins now.
Many more planters will be compelled to leave the South, because for their class it's all downhill from here. And yes, the losses are dreadful, the kind that scar a generation and the national memory forever.
The majority of rebels are likely to be having a bad time. They have never worked a day in their lives after all, the bunch of enslavers. They are now in the situation @Salurian described a long time ago:
I've been laying the foundation for that with the paramilitary Union League and the Federal National Guard and Constabulary as the ones who'll have to enforce Reconstruction against such terrorists. They are, as you note acutely, bound to be much weaker since IOTL groups like the Red Shirts or the Klan drew strength from community leaders, wealthy planters, and former Confederate leaders. Without them, they have lost a key source of morale, rhetoric, and leadership, which coupled with a stronger Black community and more decided Federal government should result in a better result. As for Early, yes, he impressed children at one point, but the main charge in his trial was war crimes for having burned some Northern towns in his raid. And, thank you! I appreciate your support
“Well Jubal just know we’re hanging you for burning cities ,but the substandard job of the hanging is for making kids fight “
Is it possible for someone to update the TV Tropes page with new tropes? The reason I haven’t done it is because I was banned awhile back, and I’m not interested in contributing to the website anymore. Some tropes that can be used by:
And the Adventure Continues: After the abolishment of slavery, William Lloyd Garrison planned to shut down his The Liberator newspaper, but the paper was hijacked by Fredrick Douglass and Wendell Philips. They changed its goal to No Reconstruction without Negro Suffrage.
Determinator: Abraham Lincoln is this, despite egregious losses and opposition in congress he remained personally determined to win the war above all else. The Union victory sustained in the war vindicates this persistent attitude.
You can’t go home again: Most Confederates who escaped justice live abroad want to return home. Yet none of them return home within their lifetime.
And the Adventure Continues: After the abolishment of slavery, William Lloyd Garrison planned to shut down his The Liberator newspaper, but the paper was hijacked by Fredrick Douglass and Wendell Philips. They changed its goal to No Reconstruction without Negro Suffrage.
Determinator: Abraham Lincoln is this, despite egregious losses and opposition in congress he remained personally determined to win the war above all else. The Union victory sustained in the war vindicates this persistent attitude.
You can’t go home again: Most Confederates who escaped justice live abroad want to return home. Yet none of them return home within their lifetime.
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Thanks for this. I appreciate anyone who wants to help with the TL's Page!
I sure hope so too! I haven't received a response from SeaLion Press, but I sure hope I can publish it through them.
No guarantees, but have you tried posting the thread on their forum?
I'll try to send another email tomorrow, and if that fails I'll try the forum. My final option would be Amazon self-publishing.
Tag me on the forum, I'm under the same handle there. I'll help you get the publishing types to see the post.
The surviving Southerners wouldn't be to happy about the Confederats burning down their farms.
They would cheer as the officers who did it were hung
confederate guerrillas being chased through the woods by their fellow southerners and bloodhounds would just be *chefs kiss*
somewhat confused by this line- why are things for Katherine Stone worse than for other planters? How are things different for most other planters? have some of their estates not been redistributed as much?
Thank you for your kindness. I'll soon swing through there. To explain further the situation a representative did get back to me and asked for the word count (a staggering 300k!) and a simple chapter. They haven't replied since then. I'll try to prod again through email before going to the forums.
That's quite probable in areas of Georgia, the Carolinas, and Virginia where at the end the Federals were the ones giving food and the Confederates the ones taking it away.
Let's just say many communities want nothing to do with dead-ender guerrillas.
It's not because Stone suffered especially compared to other planters. As we'll see most suffered similar redistribution of their properties. Rather it's simply because Stone was a young civilian woman who came from a family that included no important civil or military rebel leaders. So her case it's something of an outlier - most other former planters similarly despoiled are older White men who occupied places in the Confederate military or government. Stone's punishment in this case it's because she and her family fled to Texas so the properties were declared abandoned and redistributed. But you're right that it reads oddly and maybe I should rewrite it to make it clear that Stone didn't suffer more than other planters - it's just that she is less equipped to deal with her punishment.