Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

[Workable Goblin]

Yes, they were right, but the main factor behind their opposition was simple racism and a love for White supremacy. I can't see any arguments pointing out that arming the enslaved is a bad idea. They seemed convinced that they would be loyal soldiers thanks to that promise of freedom. Heck, some were so delusional that they thought the Black men would serve as slaves without a promise of freedom, because under their vision they didn't want freedom in the first place.

TBF to them, you had the examples of the helots of Sparta and the malmluks and janissaries of the Islamic world. On the one hand, the latter were slave soldiers and fought pretty well...at least for a century or two, and on the other at least during the Peloponnesian War the Spartans quite successfully used freed helots as soldiers and did not suffer much from Athenian attempts to incite helot rebellion or encourage helot defections despite their own terrible treatment of the helots. So I'm not sure it was inherently insane to think that slaves might have some use as soldiers, even against a force explicitly promising freedom. There were at least historical parallels to suggest otherwise, as unpleasant as that is.

(of course, the mamluks and janissaries were pretty much soldiers from a young age, which would be rather different from the situation here; but the helot case seems more directly parallel)

 

[Whiteshore]

(of course, the mamluks and janissaries were pretty much soldiers from a young age, which would be rather different from the situation here; but the helot case seems more directly parallel)

And on that note, the Mamluks and Janissaries basically set up stratocracies of their own with how the Mamluks assumed direct control over the Egyptian state while the Janissaries ruled the Ottoman Empire for a while through puppet Sultans. Besides, the helots IIRC were closer to medieval serfs than to chattel slavery in their status with how they were owned by the Spartan state as opposed to private property.

 

[Workable Goblin]

And on that note, the Mamluks and Janissaries basically set up stratocracies of their own with how the Mamluks assumed direct control over the Egyptian state while the Janissaries ruled the Ottoman Empire for a while through puppet Sultans.

Right, that was what I was alluding to with the "at least for a century or two" comment. They didn't take over the state right away, it took some time for them to actually take that step. So if you're a planter it might very well seem worthwhile to take the risk that your grandkids might be under the rule of a slave army in order to even have slaves now.

 

[xt828]

Besides, the helots IIRC were closer to medieval serfs than to chattel slavery in their status with how they were owned by the Spartan state as opposed to private property.

That doesn't seem to match with current scholarship, which indicates that not only were the helots absolutely slaves, they were treated significantly worse than the slaves of other Greek polities of the era. the ACOUP blog had a series on Sparta, with a post about equality and the Spartans.

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Let's not forget that back then, the question of whether slaves supposedly liked to be there was impacted by the poor understanding of trauma at that time. Stockholm syndrome, the oft-forgotten fawn part of the fight, flight, or freeze system (fawn being what one does when one can't do any of the others), and so on mean the trauma could easily have been hidden.

You had battle fatigue in the Civil War as a thing, but it wasn't really understood and, as we have discussed before, certainly wasn't diagnosed. I have mentioned before that it would be great to have a totally different psychoanalysis and Psychiatry develop based on whether one has experienced trauma as the center, rather than what Freud did with some of his odd stuff. There would be a huge number of possible case studies and the trauma has been much worse here, so it is plausible.

All you really need is some doctor who finds it interesting that what was known as Soldier's Heart back then was also present in civilian populations. He decides to start making a study of it. This article http://traumadissociation.com/ptsd/history-of-post-traumatic-stress-disorder.html has a few possible ways, including maybe following the lead of an 1813 study of a girl traumatized by Napoleon's invasion of russia. ( I'm sorry, but for some reason when I click on that link thing on my tablet I can't get the window to pop up showing where I can link the page to the words "this article.") It would only take someone coming to Dr Jacob Da Costa... well I think you'll enjoy it. And I've done so much on my grandmother's side it lets me include someone on my grandpa's besides the two guys that went from Brooke County Virginia to Ohio to fight for the Union in 1862.

 

[LelouchOfTheBarBrawl]

That doesn't seem to match with current scholarship, which indicates that not only were the helots absolutely slaves, they were treated significantly worse than the slaves of other Greek polities of the era. the ACOUP blog had a series on Sparta, with a post about equality and the Spartans.

That series has been noted for using out of date scholarship.

 

[Denliner]

The debate about the use of Black soldiers was particularly revealing because most frankly admitted the only thing they cared about is slavery. They didn't feel anything for the Confederacy as a nation, they didn't feel any attachment to any "Southern" culture separate from slavery, they only cared about the Confederacy as long as it meant perpetuating slavery. There was never any Confederate nationalism.

Breckinridge is somewhat tragic. It's a tragedy of his own making, of course, and he doesn't deserve much sympathy. But it's hard not to feel pity for someone who gave so much for a cause, earning only the scorn of the people he tried his hardest to save, even if that cause is so deeply wrong. It's in some way the ultimate story of karma - he tried to fight for slaveholders, only to realize that the Northern radicals were right: slaveholders are lazy, self-righteous, destructive, tyrannical, and feel no loyalty to anything except their own gain.

In a way, I have a hard time envisioning Southern culture during this time without slavery. It was so entrenched in all aspects of society from the top down that Southerners, even poor Southerners, might have a hard time reconstructing the Southern identity without slaves. In the absence of Lost Cause mythology and revisionism, something must replace it amidst Reconstruction (like a Southern cultural revival). I reckon that it will not be a pretty/easy process thanks to former Confederates and the KKK, but one that both free blacks and whites are willing to work together for.

As for Breckinridge, maybe this whole tragedy is why I want him alive after the war. Aside from the schadenfreude I will get to experience seeing Breck experience the literal destruction of his homeland to the North, the coup by the Slavocrats might motivate him to take part in Reconstruction and be far more involved in Southern politics/culture than OTL, so it would be a case of irony that he will help destroy the last embers of the Planter class after deciding to lead a nation made to cater to the Slavocracy.

Though, I wouldn't mind him becoming a martyr for the next generation of Southerners that despise the Slavocracy.

I struggled with the decision of killing Lee. Mostly because then Confederates can say he was never truly defeated (I think Grant's Eight Days were a clear defeat, tho). Furthermore, even though I also like the imaginary of Appomattox, I think it actually hurt the nation in the long term. It created the sense that as soon as the war was over the rebels ought to have been forgiven immediately, and that any measure that sought justice was actually vengeance that went against the "spirit of Appomattox." That idea is why no Confederate leaders were prosecuted and why many Northerners rejected Reconstruction. The handshake of Appomattox created in Northerners an enduring idea of themselves as the merciful victors who refused to punish their defeated foe but welcomed them back with open arms. And that's not good when those defeated foes definitely deserved to be punished.

Now that's an interesting viewpoint. I never saw Appomattox in that light, but in a way, those theatrics did set the stage for how Reconstruction would be weakened and ultimately subverted by former Confederates who were never punished after the Civil War.

ITTL will be very different. It's gonna end with Richmond up in flames, and I doubt the Union will be as merciful as its OTL counterpart.

I do wonder how the Implosion of the CSA would influence political thought in Europe, because ITTL, it's plain to almost everyone that the Civil War was just the Slavocrats playing pied-piper, singing the siren's song of "Racial Supremacy/Solidarity/Warfare" to trick the Poorer Whites into a Lemming-like lunge, stopping right at the edge of the cliff of combat, laughing as those foolish enough to follow them are thrown into the man-made hell of a civil war in which they had no real reason to fight.
Replace "slavocrats" with "aristocrats", "race" with "ethnic", and delete "civil", and that situation can fit almost every European Colonial Conflict and Inter-Imperial Wars, especially the Franco-Prussian War.
I anticipate that the Civil War in the US would greatly shape the way the propogandist narratives of imperial/ethnic glory unfold throughout Europe, from being fully embraced IOTL, to being roundly criticized ITTL.

I actually questioned this myself, as I was curious as to how Gobineau would've reacted to the more violent fall of the Confederacy.

Considering how Gobineau despised America for its lack of "noblesse oblige" among its wealthy aristocracy, it might actually be easier for him to excuse the utter failure of the CSA by saying that they were American mongrels that mixed with other races (including inferior white races) too often, as opposed to him who were of 100% pure, superior Aryan stock. He also criticized the materialism of Americans, so the Slavocrats' suicide during the ACW might validate his criticisms of America as a whole.

I don't think this alternate Civil War will change Europe's views on colonialism or white supremacy, mainly because their racism was also deeply tied to classism (with many racial theorists, especially Nordicists, dividing the Caucasian race into Mediterraneans, Nordics, etc.) as well as nationalism. They're still going to colonize much of the world due to internal competition and a paternalistic belief that their Civilization is the means of civilizing lower races, something that OTL America also came to adopt.

But what if it didn't happen ITTL for America?

Rather than the ACW, I believe Reconstruction and subsequent periods in ITTL America's history will directly challenge European racial theories. As white supremacists are discredited and fall by the wayside in the midst of black enfranchisement, education, and a rise in political power, new theories will be devised by American scientists that will rightfully contradict Europe's views on Africans and even other Caucasians.

 

[Whiteshore]

In the absence of Lost Cause mythology and revisionism, something must replace it amidst Reconstruction (like a Southern cultural revival). I reckon that it will not be a pretty/easy process thanks to former Confederates and the KKK, but one that both free blacks and whites are willing to work together for.

On that note, what would be interesting would be said identity being a very "modernist" ideology as well, with it looking forward to the glorious future and all that.

 

[Tertius711]

I think the North is far too vengeful for any handshake in Apottamox this time. The rebels sacked Washington and commited so many heinous atrocities. The North has radicalised. They're gonna make them bleed.

 

[VaultJumper]

I do hope that Breckenridge lives and honestly I could see him writting a book on the failures of the confederacy.

 

[piratedude]

Rather than the ACW, I believe Reconstruction and subsequent periods in ITTL America's history will directly challenge European racial theories. As white supremacists are discredited and fall by the wayside in the midst of black enfranchisement, education, and a rise in political power, new theories will be devised by American scientists that will rightfully contradict Europe's views on Africans and even other Caucasians.

Maybe, but it could also have some thinking that blacks were held back by their native culture, and only once they had become "civilized"/westernized did they excell. So in that instance things are less racialized, but cultural imperialism is as strong or stronger

 

[Samuyil Hyde]

I wonder how different Southern Gothic, as a genre, would be ITTL.
IOTL, Southern Gothic kinda was taking an objective look at the South after the Civil War, and that objective look at the silent horror that was the South, with the amount of men dead for an institution so undeniably evil, led to to have the perfect mix of despair, horror, and a dispossessed decay.
It was the exact opposite of Antebellum Nostalgia, somewhat of a reaction to that reactionary strain of nostalgia, and instead of the racism of that nostalgia, it was real.
But in this timeline, the South went through something hundreds of times more horrific, and committed things hundreds of times more unforgivable. There won’t be a nostalgia for the “good ol’ days,” because that era would be universally recognized as an era of ignorance to the obvious unfolding events that led to the carnage that succeeded it.
Southern Gothic, as a genre and cultural marker, would therefore be entirely different in this more radical Civil War. My prediction is that it is either nonexistent, or a hundred-thousand times more dark, depressing, and real.

also: i just realized that due to this Civil War ITTL killing like 50% more of the Southern White Male Population, there’s a 50% chance that many of the most famous works of the Southern Gothic literary genre are butterflied out of existence due to their authors having been killed in the Civil War, so every Southern Gothic work written by any man who lived during the Civil War has been butterflied, but there’s a solid chance that a Southern Gothic work written by a woman who lived during the Civil War is going to gain Blood Meridian-levels of immortal literary infamy.

For anyone else who enjoys Southern Gothic, what are y’all’s thoughts on the status of the genre ITTL?

 

[New Potomac]

He's far better off dead as a martyr for poor southern whites than anything else.

Breckenridge doesn't strike me as someone who would repent for his sins if given the chance. The best you'd get is him blaming their every failure on the planters, which is useful, but is assuredly going to be a point made often anyway.

 

[Samuyil Hyde]

He's far better off dead as a martyr for poor southern whites than anything else.

Breckenridge doesn't strike me as someone who would repent for his sins if given the chance. The best you'd get is him blaming their every failure on the planters, which is useful, but is assuredly going to be a point made often anyway.

the best (funniest too) “way out” that is somewhat possible for everyone as well as Breckinridge is if he fakes his death in a way that makes the Slavocrats responsible (so probably a false-flag arson done by Nationalists who never get caught but are heavily-hinted to be affiliated with some big Slavocrats), and flees to the Brazilian Amazon to live the out rest of his anonymous life as a free man.
Is it bad that a war criminal who headed a genocidal Ethnostate would fake his death and flees to Brazil to escape Justice in the form of a victorious army filled with righteous fury? Yes.
But, wouldn’t it be ironic?

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

James Easley smiled as he stepped off the train into the station in Philadelphia. He inhaled deeply, his ind taking him back to stories of his grandfather on his mother's side. "They felt a cry for iberty," he muttered to himself as the porter helped him get his bags. "NOw, we are finishing the job we began back then."

It was a couple days after Thanksgiving. His wife had read in Goday's how some women had been pushing for a national holiday of Thanksgiving for decades before Lincoln finally proclaimed it. He imagined thatthe citizens of that great city would be thankful to have the town back to themselves someday. But for now, it was fun for tourists like James to imagine the Founders meeting here in 1775, 1776, 1787, and what they would think if they were alive today.

After James checked his bags into his hotel for the overnight stay, he ventured to the hospital where Dr. Jacob Da Costa worked. He walked past... wait, was that a stroller? He furrowed his brow but walked on to where he'd been directed. He would have to investigate that later.

"Hi, old friend," he said to a soldier, in his late 20s, who had been sitting there staring ahead blankly. The soldier seemed to be snapped out of his trance as James spoke. "I know, it was your father who was very good friends with me. But, I promised I would look after you after he died a couple years ago. How are you?" James asked kindly.

"Okay. I still can't walk on this ting."

"It'll get better," James said. He knew the diagnosis from a letter this man had written to James' friend's widow. "Soldier's heart." Whatever it was that caused that long, faraway stare had to be part of it.

"I saw the President."

James was pleased. "I hope he's in good health. I would love to drop in and try to see him, but I imagine security is very tight after what happened earlier this year."

"He hasn't beefed it up as much as everyone else watches out for him," the soldier said.

His mind now away from the war, he was able to carry on a normal conversation. They laughed about a few things back home, James heard about this greatplayer named Joe Start, his apparent friendship with a black ballplayer, Octavius Catto, and Catto's attempt to get public transportation integrated in the state.

But, something James hadn't noticed had reminded his friend of the war again, and the soldier's voice became much more withdrawn, as if he was drifting away...somewhere. Or somewhen.

Dr. Da Costa came in at that moment, and the men shook hands; James had been here once before to see the soldier. James explained what had happened as they walked into the corridor.

Da Costa sighed. "I know. You haven't seen the nightmares, or his other symptoms. Most of these patients are simply here for non-specified cardiac ailments, but some of them, it's like the brain is affected, too."

"I'll bet you'll be glad when the war is over, and you can go back to seeing regular patients."

"The funny thing is, I've begun."

This seemed like as good a time as any to ask. "Now that you say that, I thought I sw... a child's stroller. Or maybe a bit small, more like for a doll..." He was incredibly confused.

"It is. With the last incursion into Maryland, there has been so much fighting there, a widow brought her girl to me, after months trying to find help elsewhere. She swears there could be some connection with Soldier's Heart."

"How does a small girl get soldier's heart?"

"That's what I wondered, too. My first words when the mother asked me to provide care was, 'I'm a doctor, not Mother Goose.' But you know how women are; especially mothers."

"Oh, yes, my son is sixteen now, and has his sights on a girl his age; pretty young Irish girl, seems to be a good fit, but has the insistence on care and compassion to be a nurse if she doesn't marry and have a dozen or so kids with him."

"These nurses are special; one of them took this mother and her little girl into her home. Anyway, the girl keeps re-creating scenes like from an invasion - I mean like in her mind, they come even if she's focused on something else, just like you saw in your talk with your friend. she's got these other symptoms that seemed... well, I wrote some colleagues back in Europe, and guess what?" Easley didn't know. "THere was a study of a girl 50 years ago with the same sort of thing from Napoleon's invasion of Russia, it appears. I just got a copy of it in the mail the other day."

Easley was intrigued. "So, there's a connection between that and Soldier's Heart."

"I can't say for sure, Jim," DaCosta said shrugging his shoulders slightly. "But science isn't worth much without imagination; finding those connections requires it. I go to my nurse's home and talk to the mom and that girl, and can't help but wonder. I guess if this mother's right, and this lead I'm starting to follow about anxiety, and what talking with these patients and that girl show some of the same things, well, maybe I've discovered some new, alien branch of medicine. But for now, I'm glad to be just a good, country doctor."

(I don't know if my ancestor ever went by Jim, but after I came up with the "I'm a doctor, not a..." quote, I couldn't resist. Especially because alien has such a perfect ring here in the 1860s, meaning strange, yet also fits the Star Trek vibe.)

 

[GhostTrader]

??? Wrong thread ?

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

??? Wrong thread ?

No, I've done 3 or 4 o'makes, as they are called in another thread. Search the previous posts for one titled "3 farmers," one with Start and Catto with baseball stuff, where start is going to go from Brooklyn to Philadelphia, and 1 or 2 others.

It has been a few years since I did one though, since Red's updates are much more frequent now. Oh, except for the one on movement. That I posted a couple months ago, I forgot about that one.

Yes, this is one of the few timelines good enough to inspire fan fiction period But I certainly understand if you haven't been reading for a while period I'm sure there are some who just started on this timeline period

 

[Mayukh]

I wonder if the National Bankings acts have passed or not.

 

[Name123]

I know it is more then bit late, but from chapther 29

Indeed, at first many White soldiers resisted the very idea of Black regiments. "Woud you love to se the Negro placed on equality with me?" an Indiana private asked his father. "If you make a soldier of the negro you can not dispute but he is as good as me or any other Indiana soldier.” A New Jersey sergeant agreed, considering that arming slaves would be "a confession of weakness, a folly, an insult to the brave Solder."

It should be soldier unless it is intentional since it is a quote.

 

[LordYam]

Would Reconstruction delay the expansion out west?