Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

I'm sorry but then I'll have to side against the Mexicans - contrary to what most people think, spicy food is not a Latin American thing, but merely Mexican, and most Latinos thus actually can't stand spicy food any better than a gringo.
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As a Texan I must support my fellow spicy food connoisseurs. VIVA LA MEXICO! JALAPENO, POBLANO, HABANERO, CAYENNE, AND HATCH PEPPER SUPREMACY!
MAY YOU BURN THREE TIMES!

I can't imagine not growing up with spicy food around and the best part is that it keeps you from having to share and if do you know it will be appreciated.
 
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Sorry if this has been answered already, but do you think the Democratic Party (or in this case, its successors that still claim to be "the Democratic Party") is done for good? Not necessarily de iure illegal, but de facto simply becoming irrelevant. If that's the case, then I can see the Populists becoming the main opposition to the GOP, yes, if we ignore any possible Socialist Party or sorts, or the anarcho-syndicalist unions.
No. The old Democratic Party lives on through several constituencies that would rather crawl over broken glass than vote Republican, including immigrants, reactionaries, and yeomen. While their ability to wage a national campaign against the dominant Republicans has been effectively destroyed, they still exist in one form or another at the local level. The main three ways they appear is through moderate Eastern financiers (represented by Tilden in 1864), midwestern and Border farmers who care mostly for economics (the group Pendleton tried to appeal to), and reactionary racists (Johnson's demographic). All these groups can still contest Republican power at a local level.

1) A relationship immortalized by Tommy Lee Jones and S. Epatha Merkerson in the Daniel Day Lewis biopic Lincoln. :love:

2) Don't worry about it.:) Other than settling accounts with the British Empire (reparations, which ITTL may well be larger than IOTL), only "Imperial":rolleyes: Mexico stands as an issue for the United States🤬😤 with any power in Europe.

3) VERY UNLIKELY to see an alliance or amalgamation between Labor factions and the Populist Party. The Populists never made inroads into the Northeast or West Coast and did poorly in the Great Lakes.

While ITTL they are much more likely to make deep inroads into the Deep South, their inherent anti-"Papist" bigotry makes it impossible for them to ever be taken seriously by political forces dominated by labor unions that have among them teeming numbers of Roman Catholics (Irish, Italians, Germans, Poles, etc, etc, etc...).

4) Good idea. Just enough to show the butterfly effects of TTL on Europe, and those butterfly effects that later on touch upon the United States. The latter effect being muted by the expected long term (33 years?) American Isolationism seen with America's obsession with internal development. Or to put it more bluntly, the American People won't care for the next couple of generations over matters going on in the outside world, being so busy as they will be. Namely, conquering the Old West and slaughtering our Native Americans.:'(

After all, there's little to indicate that there's been any real changes (IIRC) to TTL regarding White America's treatment of its native populations. The Sand Creek Massacre, frex, will probably happen, on schedule, and tragically, unchanged.:'(
Unfortunately, you're right that nothing substantial has improved for Native Americans.

Sorry, I missed this post when I was responding to the OP's latest big post. As I wrote in that response, the Populist Party's anti-Catholic (and AFAIK, anti-immigrant) politics prevent them from ever being a serious long term opposition (much less ruling!) party in this country.

OTOH, its "offspring", the Progressive Party, very much DOES stand a chance at joining the Republicans in a successful national state of duopoly politics. Though this won't really be possible until American internal development reaches its full potential with the accession of Arizona as a state. Completing the "Lower 48", and settling the duopoly for good.

Third party politics just don't work in a continent-spanning constitutional republic. IF the USA had a parliamentary system, with Votes of No Confidence, Cabinet Revolts, Snap Elections, and such, then YES: Third party politics would work. But in the USA's fully cyclical election system, there are no "coalition governments". Its winner-take-all, and a Duopoly Supreme. Any attempt at third parties invariably means: The ticket splits, and one of the two big parties wins. Often, easily.
I think you're misunderstanding. I don't see the Populists becoming the other national party. Rather, that once the Republican split happens the local chapters of Labor Republicans will ally with constituencies that Populists appeal to, in a form of fusion, eventually coalescing into the second national party. This happened IOTL, where several successive "insurgencies" challenged Democrats in the South, from Greenbackers, to Readjusters, to Populists, all appealing to traditionally Republican constituencies (read, Black people), and managed to carry the endorsement of or fusion with the Republicans. We'll basically see the contrary here - Labor Republicans, in order to compete in the South, would appeal to Southern Populists in the South, and to other parties in other regions. Because the politics we'll see are probably going to be both highly local and dependent on fusion arrangements.

To be fair, the Populist Party as we know IOTL is still far in the future, and unlike IOTL, the Democrats were effectively dead. The coalitions that merged into the Populist Party IOTL could be easily different.
It'll certainly be.

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As a Texan I must support my fellow spicy food connoisseurs. VIVA LA MEXICO! JALAPENO, POBLANO, HABANERO, CAYENNE, AND HATCH PEPPER SUPREMACY!
MAY YOU BURN THREE TIMES!

I can't imagine not growing up with spicy food around and the best part is that it keeps you from having to share and if do you know it will be appreciated.
Yup, gotta say I am not too fond of spicy food. And I've never even seen much less tasted the peppers you mention lol. It just isn't the cuisine I'm used to. It amuses me to see gringos talk of how White people can't handle spice and Latinos love it, when gringos probably like spicy food way more than the millions of non-Mexican Latinos.
 
No. The old Democratic Party lives on through several constituencies that would rather crawl over broken glass than vote Republican, including immigrants, reactionaries, and yeomen. While their ability to wage a national campaign against the dominant Republicans has been effectively destroyed, they still exist in one form or another at the local level. The main three ways they appear is through moderate Eastern financiers (represented by Tilden in 1864), midwestern and Border farmers who care mostly for economics (the group Pendleton tried to appeal to), and reactionary racists (Johnson's demographic). All these groups can still contest Republican power at a local level.
On that note, what areas would you say are the remnants of the Democrats most prominent in, especially with the sectors of society who are most likely to go Democratic here?
 
Yup, gotta say I am not too fond of spicy food. And I've never even seen much less tasted the peppers you mention lol. It just isn't the cuisine I'm used to. It amuses me to see gringos talk of how White people can't handle spice and Latinos love it, when gringos probably like spicy food way more than the millions of non-Mexican Latinos.
I am usually down to try almost any cuisine there certain exceptions mostly focused around the fact I don't like meat that looks like the animal it comes from IE animal heads or whole arthropods, cephalopods, or molluscs or some pickled things, I just can't seem to like Olives no matter how many times I try them. Also I like more veggies then fruits for some reason.

Also Red to build tolorance for spice red pepper flakes are really good starting point because you can control how spicy you want it, They are great in Italian food or any stews and soups. Then I would move to cooking with fresh Jalapenos because you can get rid of the seeds to make them less spicy and they go well with onions.
 
Hello,

To return to the subject at hand, would we see a general uptick in technology innovations after the ACW? Can black inventors really have the opportunity to demonstrate their ideas in a way that could advance the US somewhat beyond the levels achieved in OTL? Could experiences in the South prior to the war drive a number of labor-saving inventions?
 
Frankly I for a long time conceived the TL as a purely American one, and thus never took into account whether any external developments would fit with the "theme." Even today, and I've been emphatic with that, I insist that the TL will remain focused on the US and its internal politics. It's just, at some time we'll have to breach the bubble and look at the wider world. Still, it'll be only one update looking at everything, nothing detailed.
That is what I find preferable.
 
Especially with US isolationism pre-WW2 IOTL meaning that butterflies would be relatively limited compared to a later timeline where the US would have been more "active" internationally.
That too, thought I should note that I was mostly speaking about narrative issues. I prefer a timeline that has a clear focus to one that tries to cover everything.
 
On that note, what areas would you say are the remnants of the Democrats most prominent in, especially with the sectors of society who are most likely to go Democratic here?
- Eastern urban centers, with their immigrant populations that are racist, and looked down upon by the Republican WASPs.
- Lower North areas of poor yeomen, who see Eastern interests with suspicion, fear competition with Black people, and dislike Republican "hard money" policies
- Border and Southern Whites who remain unconciliated to the new order

These three areas will probably see three distinct parties emerge. These electoral dynamics will be a big part of the next installment!

I am usually down to try almost any cuisine there certain exceptions mostly focused around the fact I don't like meat that looks like the animal it comes from IE animal heads or whole arthropods, cephalopods, or molluscs or some pickled things, I just can't seem to like Olives no matter how many times I try them. Also I like more veggies then fruits for some reason.

Also Red to build tolorance for spice red pepper flakes are really good starting point because you can control how spicy you want it, They are great in Italian food or any stews and soups. Then I would move to cooking with fresh Jalapenos because you can get rid of the seeds to make them less spicy and they go well with onions.
Interesting. Maybe I'll try someday. Thanks for the recommendation.

Bananas on pizza are rather nice.
I... what?

Hello,

To return to the subject at hand, would we see a general uptick in technology innovations after the ACW? Can black inventors really have the opportunity to demonstrate their ideas in a way that could advance the US somewhat beyond the levels achieved in OTL? Could experiences in the South prior to the war drive a number of labor-saving inventions?
Probably. To paraphrase a certain quote, so many brillant minds could never reach their potential because they were toiling in sweatshops or cotton fields. A more established Black community will be able to birth many inventors, artists, and poets.
 
Probably. To paraphrase a certain quote, so many brillant minds could never reach their potential because they were toiling in sweatshops or cotton fields. A more established Black community will be able to birth many inventors, artists, and poets.
Very True. Freedom and Equality do not just help the specific individuals impacted, but the whole society. Allowing people to reach their full potential instead of them to confining them to an enforced role is going to impact the rest of the society.
 
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Yup, gotta say I am not too fond of spicy food. And I've never even seen much less tasted the peppers you mention lol. It just isn't the cuisine I'm used to. It amuses me to see gringos talk of how White people can't handle spice and Latinos love it, when gringos probably like spicy food way more than the millions of non-Mexican Latinos.
Ever come to Spain, go to Galicia and try your luck with the local Padrón peppers - spiciness is a bit random. We even have a refrain about them: "Pimientos de Padrón, unos pican, otros non".
 
I'm sorry. A lot of it is simply because I've been wishy-washy regarding Mexico and France and have failed to take a firm stance thus far, so I end up unwittingly encouraging retaking the argument even though it's something we've talked at length about. Moreover, it's also because I never really considered the TL to have a "global theme" beyond the US, so I never realized the incongruity with having monarchism succeed elsewhere. Finally, it's also simply due to my ignorance of history outside of the socio-political history of the Civil War and Reconstruction eras - since I know little about Mexico and France beyond the superficial, I tended to entertain ideas that upon closer analysis turn out to be both unsuited to the themes of the TL and unplausible.
You don't need to apologize. I'm always privy to the possibilities until the setting of the TL and the OTL facts make it impossible / ASB, which in the case of Maximillian surviving, it is. After all, I'm still on the "Empire of Brazil surviving ITTL" hype train to this day.

Speaking of Latin America, there's no doubt American imperialism is going to rear its ugly head in the region, there's always hope that we will have more stable Latin American regimes like in Mexico or Brazil to counteract their influence (or at least co-opt it in their favor). Crossing my fingers Mexico doesn't devolve into a civil war by the late 19th century.

Probably. To paraphrase a certain quote, so many brillant minds could never reach their potential because they were toiling in sweatshops or cotton fields. A more established Black community will be able to birth many inventors, artists, and poets.
There's also the fact that rapid industrialization in the South and the influx of more free labor could spark innovations with the emergence of small businesses, factories, and locally owned farms throughout the region.
 
Crossing my fingers Mexico doesn't devolve into a civil war by the late 19th century.
Hahahaha
Don't get your hopes too up. If a Porfirista regime happens and doesn't reform/is coopted by a popular strongperson (aka. a military president with popular background), then a civil war is basically inevitable by the first years of the 20th Century.
 
- Eastern urban centers, with their immigrant populations that are racist, and looked down upon by the Republican WASPs.
- Lower North areas of poor yeomen, who see Eastern interests with suspicion, fear competition with Black people, and dislike Republican "hard money" policies
- Border and Southern Whites who remain unconciliated to the new order

These three areas will probably see three distinct parties emerge. These electoral dynamics will be a big part of the next installment!


Interesting. Maybe I'll try someday. Thanks for the recommendation.


I... what?


Probably. To paraphrase a certain quote, so many brillant minds could never reach their potential because they were toiling in sweatshops or cotton fields. A more established Black community will be able to birth many inventors, artists, and poets.
Hopefully with a more honest, less racist, Patent Bureau. Google "The Real McCoy" to learn of what happens when people ignore rightful patents by Black inventors.
 
Very True. Freedom and Equality do not just help the specific individuals impacted, but the whole society. Allowing people to reach their full potential instead of them to confining them to an enforced role is going to impact the rest of the society.
Exactly.

Ever come to Spain, go to Galicia and try your luck with the local Padrón peppers - spiciness is a bit random. We even have a refrain about them: "Pimientos de Padrón, unos pican, otros non".
Now, that does sound interesting.

You don't need to apologize. I'm always privy to the possibilities until the setting of the TL and the OTL facts make it impossible / ASB, which in the case of Maximillian surviving, it is. After all, I'm still on the "Empire of Brazil surviving ITTL" hype train to this day.

Speaking of Latin America, there's no doubt American imperialism is going to rear its ugly head in the region, there's always hope that we will have more stable Latin American regimes like in Mexico or Brazil to counteract their influence (or at least co-opt it in their favor). Crossing my fingers Mexico doesn't devolve into a civil war by the late 19th century.


There's also the fact that rapid industrialization in the South and the influx of more free labor could spark innovations with the emergence of small businesses, factories, and locally owned farms throughout the region.
I also wish for a better Latin America...

Hahahaha
Don't get your hopes too up. If a Porfirista regime happens and doesn't reform/is coopted by a popular strongperson (aka. a military president with popular background), then a civil war is basically inevitable by the first years of the 20th Century.
But surely we can make it less destructive than the OTL war?

Hopefully with a more honest, less racist, Patent Bureau. Google "The Real McCoy" to learn of what happens when people ignore rightful patents by Black inventors.
Of course. Reconstruction also affected Northern States, many of which also expanded Civil Rights, public services, and progressive laws for a while, until they too engaged in a retreat from Reconstruction as the "respectable middle class" came to support laws that discriminated against the poor and minorities as a necessary vanguard against "un-American communism."
 
But surely we can make it less destructive than the OTL war?
Well, if the longterm effects of a successful Reconstruction is that the political culture of the United States is more keen on democracy promotion, then you could see more pressure on Diaz to finally pick a successor and step down so Reyes could just become President. The administration in charge could also just back TTL equivalent to Madero.
 
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