The Wiki to rescue. To summit up while I do not think it's likely. US does in fact have an ideology to export if they really wanted to.
Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
I think that, especially to communists and socialists, the American Civil War might look like the last Liberal revolution - understanding it as the revolutionary liberalism of the French Revolution, with its equality for all, strengthening of the national State, destruction of an old feudal order, and ultimate advancement of capitalism and the bourgeois class.
The South is certainly much closer to Paraguay now that it's basically decided to commit suicide.
Lincoln was interested in reforming the civil service after the war, and he was personally unimpeachable. We could see some reform in Reconstruction policy that tries to keep offices for Republicans instead of up to the will of governments and local elections that eventually can swing to the opposition. But conversely, patronage was very popular among both Black Republicans and Party bosses.
Yes, exactly, that's my point. There's no coherent ideology this US could export.
Yes, I can see something like that. Curiously, the most stalwart Republicans were also some of the most opposed to labor's cause. Grant, for example, called on the national government to harshly deal with strikers, and criticized those who were against using the Army to protect Black rights but completely supported using it to protect business interests. For Republicans in this vein the national State had to make its power felt against both reaction and revolution. I suspect this would become the most prominent position within the Republican mainstream.
We'll probably see the US focusing on internal issues for a couple of decades anyway. The only places where it could intervene would be Cuba and Brazil.
Thanks! We'll see
Yeah. Especially the presence of Liberal 48ers means this Second American Revolution may be seen as a successful form of what was attempted in Europe in 1848.
I did plan to make a series of wikiboxes, and, hopefully, maps in a post about Battles and Leaders after we finish the main story. So that lays in the future. I would love it if someone else tried their hand at making them, however!
The closest thing to an ideology that the US could export aside from bog standard liberalism is perhaps land reform (which Lincoln kind of blundered into after other options didn't work out, but that doesn't necessarily stop it from being influencial). Land reform along the lines that Lincoln is doing doesn't really fit with Marxism but could help foster or create other ideologies that fit better with land reform.
The most obvious answer would be Distributism which is in love with the idea of a whole bunch of small family farms instead of large landed estates or collectivised agriculture. In the real world Distributism mostly failed as an independent project but has had influence across the political spectrum and in a lot of weird little corners of political thought and some unexpected places. A larger and better-organized Distributist Third Way movement (or something with a broadly similar ideology) could be interesting here and perhaps feed into less authoritarian breeds of socialism.
So not a direct export as Lincoln was hardly a proto-Distributist but just getting more people to think about land reform seriously could have a lot of ideological knock-on effects.
The most obvious answer would be Distributism which is in love with the idea of a whole bunch of small family farms instead of large landed estates or collectivised agriculture. In the real world Distributism mostly failed as an independent project but has had influence across the political spectrum and in a lot of weird little corners of political thought and some unexpected places. A larger and better-organized Distributist Third Way movement (or something with a broadly similar ideology) could be interesting here and perhaps feed into less authoritarian breeds of socialism.
So not a direct export as Lincoln was hardly a proto-Distributist but just getting more people to think about land reform seriously could have a lot of ideological knock-on effects.
With the shift in the political environment, I think that the GOP ITTL going to become the Welfare-Corporatist party that General Grant had wanted it to be; the only big difference is the new turn the US is making towards Land Reform, so if the Dems ITTL continue on their course of making the US a de-facto one-party state with their sheer ineptitude as-of-late, the dominant GOP is headed towards centrality & centralization, but will inevitably split somewhere between pro-Labor Georgism and the Corporatist establishment.
Overall, this new GOP ITTL is going to be just like Mexico’s current MORENA; Based on Centralism & Regimepilled all the way.
(👆 this will be the GOP circa 1900 ITTL)
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The ideas of race could cause interesting butterflies with regard to the theory of evolution.
I could see some of the racists thinking, "We evolved from the apes, which are clearly a lower form of life, The N****** are more advanced than the apes, but haven't got as far as us, and this <spouts pseudo-scientific technobabble> is the evidence. So just as humans are above animals, so white humans are above others
In short, some could use it as a way to make their prejudices sound scientific to the uneducated.
I could see some of the racists thinking, "We evolved from the apes, which are clearly a lower form of life, The N****** are more advanced than the apes, but haven't got as far as us, and this <spouts pseudo-scientific technobabble> is the evidence. So just as humans are above animals, so white humans are above others
In short, some could use it as a way to make their prejudices sound scientific to the uneducated.
What you just described is pretty much the basic train of thought of OTL scientific racism...
Right, but "scientific racism" is compatible with evolution, so that might have butterflies in that evolution isn't banned in some places. In OTL, the same places that restricted teaching evolution overlapped quite a bit with places that had undisputed white superiority.
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There's nothing incompatible about "scientific racism" and evolution specifically (aside from it being bullshit in general). Pretty easy to graft "scientific racism" onto outmoded evolutionary ideas of development from primitive to advanced species.
I meant to say "IS compatible with evolution, " but is hard to justify with a benevolent god.
And on that note, I could see the radical-liberal (and, later on, social democratic) tradition in the Anglosphere as a whole identify as Lincolnite in their ideology. And on an unrelated note, what would be interesting would be how the Union "waving the bloody shirt" when it comes to Southern emigres could lead to international conventions on extradition laws being developed earlier than IOTL, particularly if the US insists that top Confederates who were treated as "normal" political refugees yet tried to set up a government-in-exile or the crew of Confederate raiders who seek asylum be handed over for trial for treason (for the officials/generals) or piracy (for the raider crews).
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so how fucked are any/all natives that sided w/the CSA ITTL?
i would presume that at this point all that did fight with the CSA would be trying to switch sides immediately, especially considering the imminent nonexistence of an actual CSA. but how would this be recieved by the Union, and what does this mean for the future of American westward expansion ITTL?
also, would the musical Oklahoma even still exist in this timeline?
i would presume that at this point all that did fight with the CSA would be trying to switch sides immediately, especially considering the imminent nonexistence of an actual CSA. but how would this be recieved by the Union, and what does this mean for the future of American westward expansion ITTL?
also, would the musical Oklahoma even still exist in this timeline?
IRL the government made the tribes ( the Oklahoma ones at least ) renegotiate their treaties at a disadvantage so I imagine a harsher version of that. People like Stand Watie will probably swing if caught ( by John Ross or the govt ). They wont be fairing significantly better but hopefully the Unionist elements in the tribes would make the govt say “ you’re in charge , keep guerrillas under control , status quo “
but how would this alter the trajectory of Roger & Hammerstein's musical careers???
Being utterly ignorant of WTH Oklahoma! is about, I went to check.
Doesn't have anything to do with the Civil War.
I guess that, at worst, they'll give it the name of whatever the state is named and it'll have the same success.
usertron2020
Donor
1) Even more so than IOTL, if that's even possible.
2) Too little, too late. Foxhole conversions of enemies ITTL will NOT be accepted. Early defections, say earlier 1862, MAYBE, but for the rest...
3) Badly
4) Good question. I'd say it would be very bad for the Confederate-side Native Americans, not much different per se for the rest.
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usertron2020
Donor
Weren't a large part of the crews (NOT the officers!) of those "Confederate commerce raiders" actually British subjects?