Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

[cmakk1012]

Hmm, what abou

I frankly think I'll have Hawaii as a "Belgium" just because it's something interesting.

I envisioned something of a protectorate, with a nominally independent Hawaii. I'll have to further research the topic.

Is a British protectorate possibly in the cards? That was the runner-up to American influence in Hawaii historically, although the big issue with that is obviously all the American settlers.

I also wonder if you might swing a “native treaty” with the Kingdom where America annexes the islands but establishes the sovereignty of the native nation, like the reservations of OTL but on a much grander scale. Obviously the borders of the native nation/non-native lands would be an issue.

 

[Steelers94]

Hmm, what abou



Is a British protectorate possibly in the cards? That was the runner-up to American influence in Hawaii historically, although the big issue with that is obviously all the American settlers.

I also wonder if you might swing a “native treaty” with the Kingdom where America annexes the islands but establishes the sovereignty of the native nation, like the reservations of OTL but on a much grander scale. Obviously the borders of the native nation/non-native lands would be an issue.

Britain is basically out of the game for Hawaii at this point. Unless the Americans all die and/or leave the Islands.


The issue I see with the second option you're presenting is how the land gets divided. My worry is that the US would force all the Native Hawaiians onto just one or two of the small islands. I do like the idea of having it become a reservation in itself though.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

I envisioned something of a protectorate, with a nominally independent Hawaii. I'll have to further research the topic.

Is a British protectorate possibly in the cards? That was the runner-up to American influence in Hawaii historically, although the big issue with that is obviously all the American settlers.

Truthfully, if the Hawaiian king Kamehameha IV had lived longer, more resourceful relations with Britain might have been established. His wife, Queen Emma, was the popular contender for the throne when Lunalilo died, and Kamehameha's pro-British views were well known. If there's a way for the dynasty to survive (including his son) then its possible that Hawaii ends up more in the British camp as a protectorate rather than a potential annexation of the US.

That or some event or other causes Britain to decide to look into leasing Pearl Harbor as a coaling station, but not threatening to annex the island. Even the subtle threat of conflict might cause the coup plotters to not risk it.

 

[Tertius711]

Truthfully, if the Hawaiian king Kamehameha IV had lived longer, more resourceful relations with Britain might have been established. His wife, Queen Emma, was the popular contender for the throne when Lunalilo died, and Kamehameha's pro-British views were well known. If there's a way for the dynasty to survive (including his son) then its possible that Hawaii ends up more in the British camp as a protectorate rather than a potential annexation of the US.

That or some event or other causes Britain to decide to look into leasing Pearl Harbor as a coaling station, but not threatening to annex the island. Even the subtle threat of conflict might cause the coup plotters to not risk it.

British Hawaii will worsen Anglo-American relations however as the Americans will resent the British intruding into the Pacific Ocean which they see as their backyard. It will also spark fears of encirclement considering Canada and British influence in the Carribbean and Central America.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

British Hawaii will worsen Anglo-American relations however as the Americans will resent the British intruding into the Pacific Ocean which they see as their backyard. It will also spark fears of encirclement considering Canada and British influence in the Carribbean and Central America.

Potentially, possibly, maybe. The British didn't have any specific designs on the islands OTL, and even the US did not have any specific designs on its annexation. If the Hawaiian monarchy seeks Britain as a guarantor of their independence in a way that doesn't inhibit American economic expansion in the 19th century, you can probably get away with it. Britain doesn't have to annex the islands outright. A treaty granting basing rights at Pearl Harbor, and then an Anglo-American treaty allowing for American economic dominance might be enough to satisfy all sides.

We're not looking at a US which will be gunning across the globe from what Red Galiray is saying, so a US that doesn't go through an empire building phase leading to the Spanish-American War wouldn't have reasons to annex Hawaii in the first place.

 

[Kylia]

British Hawaii will worsen Anglo-American relations however as the Americans will resent the British intruding into the Pacific Ocean which they see as their backyard. It will also spark fears of encirclement considering Canada and British influence in the Carribbean and Central America.

Worsened Anglo-American relations in the late 19th early 20th century you say?

Count me in.

 

[Whiteshore]

That said, it is entirely possible that it just doesn't occur at all and he gets to be a coastal artillerymen and later handed a rifle.

At this rate, it is more likely that he is handed an old musket with the supply situation in the CSA and all that.

 

[Universal Century]

Hmm. Looking this over, I wonder if a sufficiently ambitious British diplomat/officer with at least marginal support from Whitehall might arrange a lease of Pearl Harbor for the Royal Navy, thereby extending an implied protectorate over the Hawaiian royal family and Hawaiian sovereignty (firmly in the British orbit, of course), and setting off a chain of dominos that leads to the marginalization of the American planter class on the islands and a quasi-“lockout” of American expansion across the Pacific, with the American postwar government needing to find new solutions to the problem of power projection and trade expansion into Asia…

 

[Knightmare]

At this rate, it is more likely that he is handed an old musket with the supply situation in the CSA and all that.

Please, it's like that bit from Enemy at the Gates (And some can make a snarky comparison to RL).

"The one with the musket shoots! The one without follows him! When the one with the musket gets killed, the one who is following picks up the musket and shoots!"

 

[piratedude]

Hmm. Looking this over, I wonder if a sufficiently ambitious British diplomat/officer with at least marginal support from Whitehall might arrange a lease of Pearl Harbor for the Royal Navy, thereby extending an implied protectorate over the Hawaiian royal family and Hawaiian sovereignty (firmly in the British orbit, of course), and setting off a chain of dominos that leads to the marginalization of the American planter class on the islands and a quasi-“lockout” of American expansion across the Pacific, with the American postwar government needing to find new solutions to the problem of power projection and trade expansion into Asia…

Maybe make it a three way agreement between Britain, Hawaii, and Japan?

 

[McAuslan_in_the_Rough]

Please, it's like that bit from Enemy at the Gates (And some can make a snarky comparison to RL).

"The one with the musket shoots! The one without follows him! When the one with the musket gets killed, the one who is following picks up the musket and shoots!"

With the muskets being assigned according to wealth and number of slaves owned.

I think they would probably address a firearm shortage with the issuance of pikes.

 

[Whiteshore]

Please, it's like that bit from Enemy at the Gates (And some can make a snarky comparison to RL).

"The one with the musket shoots! The one without follows him! When the one with the musket gets killed, the one who is following picks up the musket and shoots!"

Speaking of which, the CSA actually proposed that they bring back pikes during the American Civil War IOTL, so I wouldn't be surprised if we see desperate Confederate troops armed with muskets and pikes as a throwback to the 16th and 17th Century as well.

 

[wilji1090]

Frankly, I believe saying some imperialism is better than another is similar to saying some slaver is better than another. At their core, all imperialistic project are bad, while they may differ by grades all were fundamentally founded on self-interest and greed. They may say they are "civilizing" the people there, but ultimately this is not a good thing at all. I could however see the American-Filipino War being averted if only because the US establishes a relation more similar to the one with Cuba instead of direct occupation.

If I gave off that impression then I apologize as that was not my intent. I, myself, have family in the Qualla Boundary in North Carolina so I understand the aversion to imperialism entirely. My statement was more rooted in trying to see from the lens of the social mores of that time in how TTL’s USA would try to justify any imperialistic acts if that was ultimately the direction they go down.

 

[Whiteshore]

Considering how there would be a more brutal insurgency than OTL and the junta is said to be people who would be “fleeing on the first steamer”, we could have the Confederate bushwhackers here, to make Reconstruction even more of a mess, nominally pledge allegiance to some sort of Confederate government-in-exile.

 

[Denliner]

Hello,

Maybe after a decade of the start of Reconstruction, would there be places where black exclusion does not appear, as opposed to OTL? Also, would groups start to appear sooner to promote the uplift of black society from education and arts to technology and industrialization?
The way in which this story has developed, it would appear that the rise of more prominent blacks would occur starting with Reconstruction. We could see inventors, writers, artists, musicians, etc rise to prominence more than in OTL. There is even a possibility of a few black millionaires appearing by the turn of the century. Also, would blacks be interested in reconnecting to their continental African cultures and history by the end of the 19th century?

I believe black exclusion will still happen despite the lack of Jim Crow or a strong KKK, mainly due to blacks distrusting whites within their spaces due to lingering white supremacy and prejudice, preferring to go out on their own and build their own businesses and economy elsewhere. It's going to take time before both blacks and whites start to naturally integrate within their local towns or cities, especially in the South.

In fact, it's within those black-led economies where we see Black Americans become educated and wealthy members of societies like with Black Wall Street in Tulsa before they were disrupted or destroyed by whites. If there were protections against that kind of political violence at a state or federal level, no doubt we would see black society be allowed to progress faster than OTL.

As for a movement to reconnect with African culture, it's possible, but I highly doubt it will be a unified movement in of itself, rather an aspect of Black culture that emerges among the intelligentsia and can vary widely among different groups of people.

 

[sparkptz]

Why would Britain go out of their way to antagonise the US? That makes no sense at all IMO; Britain's core imperial interests lie in Asia and Africa, not the Pacific basin. With a (likely) deteriorating continental situation for the British with the presumed rise of Germany, and the ever-present strategic competition with Russia over primacy over southern and southwestern Asia, and the looming "scramble" for Africa, I just think a big confrontation between Britain and the US feels extremely contrived. Especially as Hawai'i is potentially strategically important to the US and it just... isn't to the UK. At all.

Germany I could see (presuming that unification completes in the next 15-20 years as per OTL). France I could also see, in some circumstances, and obviously Japan if they follow something like their OTL trajectory. But what value would Hawai'i have to the UK at all other than antagonising a rising major power that would force them to draw resources away from their much more important pursuits to protect Canada? Hawai'i has no strategic resources. It sits astride no vital seaways. It cannot be used as a base from which to springboard to any lucrative markets or potential colonial targets, such as China. I cannot actually think of a concrete reason why Britain would be at all interested in Hawai'i - which is why they took precisely 0 steps to enforce the actual claimed sovereignty they held over the islands even in OTL.

Britain in the 19th century was cold-blooded and ruthless about prosecuting their strategic interests. Treating them like moustache-twirling movie villains intent on being the Chosen Antagonists in whatever narrative they're involved in misses the point entirely about what made British imperialism so pernicious.

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

I believe black exclusion will still happen despite the lack of Jim Crow or a strong KKK, mainly due to blacks distrusting whites within their spaces due to lingering white supremacy and prejudice, preferring to go out on their own and build their own businesses and economy elsewhere. It's going to take time before both blacks and whites start to naturally integrate within their local towns or cities, especially in the South.

In fact, it's within those black-led economies where we see Black Americans become educated and wealthy members of societies like with Black Wall Street in Tulsa before they were disrupted or destroyed by whites. If there were protections against that kind of political violence at a state or federal level, no doubt we would see black society be allowed to progress faster than OTL.

As for a movement to reconnect with African culture, it's possible, but I highly doubt it will be a unified movement in of itself, rather an aspect of Black culture that emerges among the intelligentsia and can vary widely among different groups of people.

It would be nice to see Booker T Washington making a speech around the same time as OTL but where he urges blacks to ignore the anxiety they have because after a few decades there is much more opportunity than there was when they were growing up or in some cases when they were fighting for their freedom in the 1860s.

In fact, @Red_Galiray , if you feel too burned out after part 2 that would make a fabulous close/epilogue for the series.

 

[LordYam]

I do think that Lincoln would probably retire and travel the world at some point; maybe he could meet Tsar Alexander II and Bismarck in person; both of them actually admired Lincoln despite being autocrats, largely because he was trying to force reform (in Alexander's case) or unify a nation (in Bismarck's place).

 

[Bellum Se Ipsum Alet]

maybe he could meet Tsar Alexander II and Bismarck in person

Perhaps he could do it after his presidency as sort of an informal embassy while en-route to Jerusalem...
He did say that he wanted to go to the Holy Land iirc

 

[wilji1090]

Perhaps he could do it after his presidency as sort of an informal embassy while en-route to Jerusalem...
He did say that he wanted to go to the Holy Land iirc

I totally forgot about that. Lincoln in the Holy Land would be an interesting visual in my mind.