Yeah idk if the Red Shirts are as successful without a “war hero” at their head.
Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
Ok, going from Wikipedia American immigration to the Hawaiian islands, lead in the charge by Protestant missionaries, pretty much started immediately after Cook got there in 1778. I was unable to find anything on how many white settlers were on the island around the period of time of the Civil War, but the fact that the Kalakaua dynasty wasn’t restricted in power until 1887 indicates to me that their numbers and abilities to move against the monarchy were fairly modest at the time of the Great American Kerfluffle of 1861.
I’ll try to write more later, but it’s possible— maybe not likely, but possible— for Hawai’i to maintain sovereignty. But it relies on the local non-white authorities playing their cards very right— or the white settlers playing their cards very wrong.
I’ll try to write more later, but it’s possible— maybe not likely, but possible— for Hawai’i to maintain sovereignty. But it relies on the local non-white authorities playing their cards very right— or the white settlers playing their cards very wrong.
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On the topic of areas of American imperialism in this era any idea on if the Dominican Republic could be a target for annexation? OTL the country “asked” for annexation in 1867 and was almost annexed in 1869, but the annexation treaty failed by 1 vote in the Senate.
The idea wasn’t to popular in Congress but it was among those Grant surrounded himself with as President.
IIRC the justification for this was fear of Haitian invasion, so how the post war US treats Hati would matter here.
The idea wasn’t to popular in Congress but it was among those Grant surrounded himself with as President.
IIRC the justification for this was fear of Haitian invasion, so how the post war US treats Hati would matter here.
I do realize some of the events I've described would make for a good farcical comedy like The Death of Stalin.
Of course, I understand, and I broadly agree. I just wanted to make my position absolutely clear.
- Newton Knight: mentioned briefly in Chapter 53, as a guerrilla chieftain in Mississippi and the leader of the Free State of Jones. Especially feared because he's in favor of class warfare and collaborates with freedmen. Originally, the update also mentioned that he was rewarded by the Union by being appointed as a colonel and being put in charge of the Bureau there after the area came under Federal occupation.
- Thomas Nast: Making good caricatures and making Lincoln laugh! Will be more important in Part 2.
- George Armstrong Custer: I don't know, roughly the same? Will be more important in Part 2.
- Clara Barton: Mentioned in a "mini-update" about women in the Civil War as an important nurse and a pioneer of the Sanitary Comission.
- John S. Mosby: Mentioned in Chapter 50 as a feared guerrilla leader in Virginia and Maryland. Grant has issued orders to hang his partisans on sight. Has repudiated the Junta and is seriously considering surrendering to Grant.
- Kit Carson: I'm afraid I didn't know about this man till now. So I don't know.
- Jesse James: Probably a Missouri guerrilla. Planned to mention him in Part 2.
- Belle Boyd: Mentioned briefly as a Confederate spy in an early chapter. Given the harsher war, probably was jailed and may have died of typhoid.
- Mathew Brady: Mostly as IOTL.
- Mary Todd Lincoln: Given that Willie never died, her mental health is much better. She's still sharply criticized by the Northern press who even accused her of being a "traitoress." She dislikes Grant and Chase.
- Harriet Beecher Stowe: Mostly as IOTL.
- Walt Whitman: Mostly as IOTL.
- Sojourner Truth: Given the greater recognition of Black Civil War heroes, she has earned greater fame for her work recruiting Black soldiers and has become a de facto Bureau Agent. She was present in the Congressional session that awarded the medal of honor to the 54th Massachusetts.
- Ralph Waldo Emerson: Mostly as IOTL.
- William Pitt Kellogg: Mostly as IOTL, but will become more important in Part 2.
- Elizabeth Cady Stanton: Mostly as IOTL, but will become more important in Part 2.
- William Lloyd Garrison: Has been mentioned a few times as an important radical voice. Dislikes Lincoln and once supported Chase, but since a radical challenge never materialized has been forced to offer begrudging support, if only because he wants to approve the amendment.
- James L. Alcorn: Planned to show him as an example of a "loyal" planter who's still disgruntled by the Revolution but thinks the old Whigs can take over. Will be more important in Part 2.
- Horace Greeley: Mentioned a few times as a Radical Republican, but a rather erratic one. He once pleaded with Lincoln to offer peace terms, tried to arrange a peace with the help of Napoleon III, and was sent to Niagara Falls. Somewhat more powerful because his candidate, Wadsworth, was elected the New York Governor. A bitter enemy of Seward and Weed, the latter of whom threw his lot in with Tilden partly because he believed Lincoln to indebted to Chase and Greeley. More on that later.
- Robert Smalls: Mentioned as a Black hero, having commandeered a ship as IOTL. He was supposed to take Charleston, but the effort failed. We'll see more of him soon.
Yes, but it wasn't named Argentina because of the metal silver, but because of the River.
Of course! Send me a DM.
I'll just directly say that I will hang Hampton, exactly for the reasons you say.
I frankly think I'll have Hawaii as a "Belgium" just because it's something interesting.
As I have mentioned previously, I won't go for annexation in that regard. I'll butterfly it, somehow, because I loathe American imperialism and the debates surrounding the Dominican Republic's annexation were rather harmful to Republican unity and emboldened racists. We may see imperialism in other ways, maybe ports or occupation, but not annexation.
The whole Issue of Hawaii becoming a "Belgium of the Pacific" is that it's quite literally in too strategic of a location to be a neutral. It's not gonna be until you get to TTLs version of the 747* that you'll have anything capable of skipping Hawaii on the Trans-Pacific routes. Let alone steam and sailing vessels in the mid-late 1800s. Alongside the fact the US planters already have basic control over the nation it's more or less a done deal. The only way the monarchy could survive is it starts rolling nothing but sixes and even than it still could fall.
*Yeah, turns out wasn't until the 747SP in the mid-70s that one could go from Japan to the US without needing to refuel the plane in Hawaii.
And even then, it would be a situation more akin to Tonga than anything else.
I envisioned something of a protectorate, with a nominally independent Hawaii. I'll have to further research the topic.
The only reason the monarchy was cooked was because the Queen didn't want to start any violence; should the Hawaiians decide to fight back they would win, as they outnumbered the initial conspirators. And Cleveland would support the Hawaiians.
I doubt we're getting a Cleveland presidency TTL though. Also from what I understand it's less the Queen didn't want to start violence and and more she didn't want to risk a civil war. Plus don't forget despite Cleveland's own opposition to it his own part was IIRC more in favor of it.
Second this. The truth is that, bringing more black subjects in *would* further bring out the inner racism within America.
Btw, Sumner was on the right in this issue. Unlike people like Schurz, Sumner actually opposed it for the right reason.
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Maybe have butterflies successfully allow Spain to go ahead with annexing it?
Looks at Cuba and Puerto Rico. Yeah that seems like an even worse idea
On that note, such a comedy could be a combination of Downfall and The Death of Stalin with how it would illustrate the level of delusion and insanity the Confederates have even as the world around them falls apart.
Speaking of which, maybe we could also have Ben Tillman die during the last battles of the war or something along those lines?
However, that doesn't mean another anti-expansionist could get elected. And I mean Cleveland Presidency is just as likely as it is not.
Well, I hope Mosby makes it through the war. Mosby makes for a useful Republican and became a good friend of Grant. Maybe a political career in Virginia?
Huh, with better mental health, it would hopefully avoid the whole issue of committing her to an asylum. Speaking of the Lincolns, I wonder how Robert Todd and Willie do during Reconstruction and their place in politics. Speaking of Robert, I suppose that he is still in Harvard and has yet to join Grant's staff?
Assuming that he does join a coastal artillery unit, Ben Tillman would most likely find himself holding a musket rather than manning a coastal artillery piece by the time of the March to the Sea. Lots of coastal/garrison units were deployed for action to resist Sherman, who mostly bypassed them with a few major battles in North Carolina.
Speaking on the Philippines, I'm surprised that nobody has gone for the easiest solution to preserve its independence - have the US less involved in the fighting in the Philippines. In the 1898 war, the Spanish Navy had three naval squadrons - two in Spain and one in the Philippines. The latter was sunk in Manila Bay and one of the Spanish squadrons was sent to Cuba, where it caused the US a lot of concern over a possible raid on the East Coast before being bottled up at Santiago de Cuba and later sunk in a breakout attempt. The last squadron was earmarked to reinforce the Philippines - battleship Pelayo, armored cruiser Carlos V, three destroyers and 4,000 troops in transport ships. The force could probably broken Dewey's blockade, but a lack of foresight on coal supply, British interference over coal resupply (it appears that the British were hoping for the Spanish to lose) and a US bluff to raid the Spanish coast with an Eastern Squadron caused the operation to end. Thus, an earlier departure of the squadron may have forced the US to be more cautious on operations in the Philippines. Alternatively, a different president might have opted to not go for a land intervention in the Philippines. The pre-war plans only called for the USN to blow up the Spanish Fleet in Manila and establish a blockade.
Another alternative is to have the war occur earlier when the balance of power was less favorable to the US. The only reason why the Virginius affair had not broken out to war despite the willingness of the US public to do so was that the USN was horrendously underinvested after the ACW. When the affair occurred, the Spanish ironclad Arapiles had been in New York and it was an uncomfortable realization for the USN that they had no ships that could defeat it. Even after some build up, the USN was still underinvested and would not receive more funding until Congress found out that Brazil had received a battleship (Riachuelo) it had bought from the UK in 1883. A ship that the USN again had no answer to, with one officer pointing out that their entire fleet would most likely be sunk by the Brazilian battleship alone. Only then did Congress give the USN its purse for whatever it needed to rebuild its strength.
I don't know if improved is quite the right but I think it would have drastically different history if it became an American territory for one it wouldn't be under French debt obligations and may even get funding from the federal goverment but it would be under the American system of expansion which would be different then our timeline but it would not be a bucket of sunshine for them, hell they may not even become a us state and end up like Peurto Rico or the Philippians
edit: I posted this before I read your post on being done the debate, I will delete if you want me to, sorry.
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And on that note, him becoming blind in one eye IOTL would probably lead to him not faring well in the battlefield ITTL.
Hello,
Maybe after a decade of the start of Reconstruction, would there be places where black exclusion does not appear, as opposed to OTL? Also, would groups start to appear sooner to promote the uplift of black society from education and arts to technology and industrialization?
The way in which this story has developed, it would appear that the rise of more prominent blacks would occur starting with Reconstruction. We could see inventors, writers, artists, musicians, etc rise to prominence more than in OTL. There is even a possibility of a few black millionaires appearing by the turn of the century. Also, would blacks be interested in reconnecting to their continental African cultures and history by the end of the 19th century?
Maybe after a decade of the start of Reconstruction, would there be places where black exclusion does not appear, as opposed to OTL? Also, would groups start to appear sooner to promote the uplift of black society from education and arts to technology and industrialization?
The way in which this story has developed, it would appear that the rise of more prominent blacks would occur starting with Reconstruction. We could see inventors, writers, artists, musicians, etc rise to prominence more than in OTL. There is even a possibility of a few black millionaires appearing by the turn of the century. Also, would blacks be interested in reconnecting to their continental African cultures and history by the end of the 19th century?
Looking into it, it appears that he suffered cranial or ocular tumor before deployment in July 1864, resulting in the loss of one eye during surgery. He might not see action at all or he could simply pass away from it as it was uncertain to those around him whether he would make it. That said, it is entirely possible that it just doesn't occur at all and he gets to be a coastal artillerymen and later handed a rifle.