TLIAW: Great Power Empire: China 1865
- Thread starter Japhy
- Start date
Japhy
Banned
Thank you both for that.
China's development isn't racing ahead exponentially yet, so its not a total panic. Japan is taking an alternate course that will come to play in the next few updates but they're not sitting around doing nothing. Korea's overlooking its own options too and adapting to the big changes to the north. Everyone is, more or less.
I'll admit my knowledge of Chinese, Japanese and Vietnamese history is better than my knowledge of Korean at the time period but the Koreans are certainly very aware of the fact that they have a card to play thanks to the fact that the Qing Emperor is currently off somewhere in Europe. They also know that this isn't the time to do things on their own.
Thanks, when Zeng was leading the war against the Taiping he wasn't ever really interested in European mercenaries, Ward and Gordon were pretty much forced on him and he viewed their little band of troops to be little more than annoying bandits. What he did want were people who could teach his people as much about modern tech as possible.
At this point a whole lot of bright young kids are off in Germany, and the United States and to a lesser extent Great Britain and France (Better the trouble that hasn't invaded you repeatedly) going to technical and scientific schools to learn what they can. In the short term though, when you don't have plenty of those folks around, rather than hire straight up mercenary officers you hire a few guys who are good on the tech. And no one was better with the railroads than Haupt.
They certainly overstated US-Chinese relations but at least they're not constantly shipping large naval forces to Shanghai.
Pssh, Railroads aren't the sort of thing you can even keep secret, and China isn't actually run by Fu Manchu in this.
Victorian
Remember this is the Victorian era of "those little yellow devils can't possible compete/overtake us!" So the diplomats in London and Paris might learn about this map and say 'Oh how cute'.
Remember this is the Victorian era of "those little yellow devils can't possible compete/overtake us!" So the diplomats in London and Paris might learn about this map and say 'Oh how cute'.
Faeelin
Banned
I cannot wait until they seize Singapore in 1941.
I jest, but in all seriousness, a modernizing China that's not a tottering joke is going to have huge ramifications down the road, and serve as a huge impetus to the anticolonial movement.
Japhy
Banned
Its not even going to be a secret, there were diplomats at the event for one thing, and some British and French companies are certainly hoping to get into the China market.
But yes, its 1872 at this point and China is starting from pretty much nothing as far as modern industry goes, so what has actually been done is massively limited, rail lines connected a few inland cities to river ports or the coast and the like. While "Admiral" Ellet (Formerly of the Mississippi Marine Brigade) was playing around with steamship/brown water navy development for trade and defense. China's building itself up, and is rebounding, but not yet at any breakneck rate.
Massive ramifications, beyond the scale of anything we saw IOTL certainly. A huge pillar of world Imperialism is being removed from the stage. And thats just if things keep going on as they are for a few more years.
If any country is going to be the first to feel China's new sharpened teeth, it's probably Japan. They're destined for warfare while the Europeans can easily avoid as long as they don't decide their treaty ports aren't enough which they historically seemed content with.
Also Japhy, are you going to have China's rise lead to any changes in leadership in other countries or are most of the political situations going to be kept the same until China decided it's finally had enough of imperialism?
Japan and China won't have any pressing reason to wage war ITTL, esp. if Korea modernizes itself as well. Trade on the other hand would be.
Japanese hyper nationalistic militarism might not even gain ground this time around.
I guess my lack of knowledge is shown in that I thought the militarists were already in power. I just thought conflict was inevitable between the two nations back then.
Loving this TLIAW so far - have just been reading a lot about the Taiping rebellion by coincidence so a lot more of the references haven't been lost that might otherwise have been. Seems like Yung Wing is bound to end up in government in most ATLs in this era - I think I recall he was Taiping PM in another one TL a while back. Also love the mention of Zeng and his library, from what I read he was always more comfortable as a scholar than a general, and I'm glad that despite being emperor the later part of his life must be happier than in OTL. Incidentally, Japhy, have you read Autumn in the Heavenly Kingdom by Stephen Platt? It is about the Taiping Rebellion but follows Zeng as a sort of secondary protagonist. Very interested stuff about his early career and military service, lots of stuff that could be referenced in this TL.
Anyway eagerly waiting for the next update - great stuff so far!!
Anyway eagerly waiting for the next update - great stuff so far!!
Another Tibet.....since everybody is mentioning Japan I'll add that I'm interested in how Korea turns out in this TL.
As I do in all TLs.
Korea can only survive if China,Russia and Japan are roughly equal in power and you can play one against one another.Once China goes super saiyan however,Korea is screwed and no one can help you guys.Poor Korea,so far from Heaven,so close to China,Russia and Japan...
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I wonder if Okinawa survives ITTL? OTL, the Qing made little fuss about the snapping up of their tributary state, but here the new dynasty might have to make some gesture to prove their legitimacy as the wielders of Chinese power.
I mean, I suspect that the compromise will end up with Japanese bases on the islands anyway, but the thought of an Asian Andorra is quite cool.
I mean, I suspect that the compromise will end up with Japanese bases on the islands anyway, but the thought of an Asian Andorra is quite cool.
I approve. Micronations are always fun, especially ones that are right next to great power(s).
Japhy
Banned
since everybody is mentioning Japan I'll add that I'm interested in how Korea turns out in this TL.
As I do in all TLs.
I wouldn't say warfare with any one country, in Asia or Europe is inevitable. Yes Japan's options have been rather limited, but to be clear, the Shogunate was still in power at the start of the timeline, I don't think there's any need to project more recent historical events nearly a century further back then they were. Nothing in 1865 was destined for anything in the 1940's. They were destined to see Imperialism come to town, and they were destined by the new regime in China to have different options, but nothing is set in stone.
I understand everyone has interests in what is going to be happening to lots of places in and beyond East Asia in this timeline. And there will, I assure you all be changes that happen because of events in China. But this is a timeline about China. At this time, I have no intent to be shifting the focus away from events directly related to what happens with China. There will be little tidbits, but there will also not be a bunch of tidbits about the Election of 1876 or detailed lists of Canadian Prime Ministers.
Because I know from experience thats not enough: There have been no drastic changes yet in Europe or the United States, except for things that were very opaquely noted about what borders Russia has now. I don't have any plans for Okinawa at all, didn't even think of it TBH. Eventually though stuff will start to change, too much of the world was making money off of China or planning on slicing it apart for its slow revival not to have ripples, even before Chinese power is redeveloped.
Yeah, Yung certainly made the rounds in China, he also offered his services to the Qing dynasty directly and tried to get a commission in the Union Army in 1864. But he was a smart fellow, and he was technically still working for Zeng when the POD occured, so I don't think its unreasonable he'd work for them, the guy was more or less a poster child of the Self-Strengthening Movement, a Chinese man, trained in the ways of the west come home to help develop new skills for the country.
Greatly enjoying this, old boy!
Thank you MrP, it means a great deal to have all this kind of feedback, always glad to see people like my work.
Your point about this being a short timeline with a limited focus is well made; having said that, I'd love to see the effect this has on overseas Chinese communities.
I mean, it's not like there's much hope for a surviving Lanfang Republic, but still....
I mean, it's not like there's much hope for a surviving Lanfang Republic, but still....
Actually, there may yet be hope for them. The Dutch won't occupy the entire place until 1884, which is 12 years away from where we stand right now in-universe........
Marc A
Do you think this will affect the Ottoman Empire as well then? When looking at history they tended to be treated remarkably similar by Europeans, although China was considerably worse, so if China can successfully start modernizing from a backwards nation of the East I see no reason it wouldn't inspire the Ottomans to do the same even more than our TL.
It would certainly create a very interesting and different world having both of them survive and then thrive.
It would certainly create a very interesting and different world having both of them survive and then thrive.