TLIAW: Great Power Empire: China 1865
- Thread starter Japhy
- Start date
I was thinking about picking up that book a while back, but I remember reading a review that it gives an overly romanticized view of Cixi so I ended up passing. Is it actually pretty balanced?
Also, I embarrassingly didn't know Chinese dynasties didn't just go by their last names so I was surprised when I saw Yun Dynasty instead of Zeng Dynasty. Goes to show I don't know anything. But that's what I really like about this timeline, I'm suddenly reading a lot more about an era and location that I don't much about at all. It's really awesome. Keep it up! I'd love to see more about what the Yun Dynasty will be like.
One final question, would the war really be more or less over in one year as you have it here? Seems a bit quick to take the heavily fortified capital and be recognized as the legitimate government. Surely the Qing weren't in that catastrophic of a state considering they kept limping on for almost fifty more years after this.
As I understand it (and I admit I don't know much, so anyone who knows better please correct me), a large factor in Qing China's continued existence was the various Western Powers propping up the state so no one would get full control of China. Without that, I could see Qing China going under quickly to a reasonably modernized force.
Would these foreign powers not have helped out the Qing if Zeng had rebelled?
Depends on whether they think their interests would be guaranteed.Besides that,there are limits to the strength of the foreign powers.In their end,they did not lift a finger to help the Qing in 1911.
Japhy
Banned
Eh, its good on some things, shitty on the other, its a book thats really dependent on reading it the right way (In the notes). I think a lot of the shit it gets comes from the fact that it goes against the conventional version of her that we've seen since the beginning in the west. There's admittedly some problems with the some of the sources but its not full on apologetics. I have better sources but they're also out of print sources so I was trying to go with the easier stuff. Last Stand of Chinese Conservatism: The T'ung-Chih Restoration, 1862-1874 is admittedly better.
Well thank you, thats the intent I've been going for. On another website Hendryk has noted that my dialog in a lot of instances doesn't work to well with Chinese, but I'll admit I'm not a speaker, and I'm going for a story with interesting historical facts. I'd never say I'm the best for Chinese History, but I do try to do as much research as I can and promote some interest. Haggisian Crusade and all that.
On the issue of the Qing falling and Foreign Intervention.
First things first, the domestic situation. In 1861-1865 the Qing dynasty was weaker than they had ever been, ever. Yes massive armies were in the field but with a few exceptions practically all the leadership fighting several rebellions at once owed their loyalty too or were on better terms with Zeng Guofan down in the Yangtze Valley than they were with Beijing. The officers that were predominantly loyal to the regime, mostly Manchurian and Mongolian officers were the same guys who got their rears handed to them trying to hold of the British and French in 1860, and as such were pretty much in disgrace.
As such, when push comes to shove in this alternate 1864, Zeng is someone who can (1) Win over the other Generals, both in the war against the Taiping and against the other rebellions against the Qing and (2) Win the support of at least some of the rebel movements and (3) Maintain the devout support of the Hunan Army, the best equipped, best led, and most effective army on the East Asian Mainland in 1864/5. He even has the support of some of the best Mongol and "Tartar" officers serving in the Chinese Army won by years of mutual service.
To counter this the Qing dynasty can lean on its non-Chinese, Manchurian parallel forces. Just like every Civil Service post in China which had a duplicate Chinese and a duplicate Manchurian holding the post as part of a program to maintain Manchurian separatism as at tool to maintain the "Foreign" Monarchy, there are Manchurian armies, in the North that aren't going to be won over. The problem being that they've more or less been purged since the burning of the Summer Palace and are ill armed. They are also too small to go on much of an offensive, thats why the Qing had allowed regional armies to be organized to fight rebellions in the first place.
This force can't hold anywhere too far south of Bejing, and ITTL were quickly enveloped and pushed back by a sheer wave of force. After that? A desparate retreat into the "Homeland", bad leadership, outclassed troops and outclassed tech (The Hunan Army can field a whole lot of muskets/rifles that the Manchurians cant) and everything gets shoved back.
This isn't to say though, that peace is at hand in China in the immediate term, it just means that meaningful Qing resistance has been wiped from the table. Ethnic rebellions aren't going to be put down at once, but that doesn't mean a new Dynasty can't start.
Now in regards to foreign intervention, yes in the aftermath of 1860 while the British and French public clamored for annexations, the governments in Paris and London decided that concessions and the survival of the Qing were in their favor. Thats why the British created the "Vampire Fleet" and started to bankroll and eventually lead the "Ever-Victorious Army". By 1864 though this has collapsed. The Vampire Fleet which was supposed to be a multi-regional force under British Naval Officer Sherad Osborn. The problem being that he thought he was going to serve directly under the Emperor and Zeng Guofan had other ideas, rather than serve a Hunanese Governor, Osborn quit and the fleet fell apart.
In regards to the other force, that not-really-effective force of Europeans that racism made into supermen under "Chinese" Gordon would see the European-Qing cooperation end just at the start of 1864. Gordon helped oversee the surrender of the city of Suzhou with a promise that the officers and Kings of the Taiping that were commanding in the city would be spared execution. (No such promises were offered to the rest of their command) And when the deed was done, and the Hunanese forces were executing prisoners in mass, Gordon found out that the Kings were being killed too, and resigned his commission at the horror. Support for the Qing in Europe hit zero as soon as the news came around, and the "EVA" was disbanded as a force.
In 1864-1865 the British Policy was a Pox on both houses. Their only concerns were the immediate security of Shanghai, Hong Kong and the other treaty ports. Zeng and his clique would be smart enough not to go for those ports. So long as they do that, there's no reason for the British or French to lift a finger for the Qing. They're not going to like the new dynasty any better, but they're not going to strangle it in the cradle.
And now I'll go back to update writing.
A question. Do the foreigners have a history with dealing with Zeng? Are they familiar with him at all? That could be a big issue as the foreigners are habited to dealing with the Qing for at least two decades in terms of trade and foreign policy, since the last Opium War.
Japhy
Banned
They know of him, a few Royal Navy officers made it far enough up river to meet him during the war. Opinions of him range from "Strange Oriental Despot/Proto-Fu Manchu" to "Effective Officer not interested in our advice". The POW massacres and the Vampire Fleet stuck more with his officers on the Shanghai front and the Qing more than him.
He won't be embraced, but like I said, he's going to leave the ports alone in the one part of Chinese History where no one in Europe cared who was in charge so long as they had their ports. Had he waited a few years he would be in real trouble.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Would not even be able to guess.
It's interesting how Zeng's loyalty to the Qing and his country was what destroyed China in the end (as in he could have saved his country by deciding to take power). Maybe I'm giving too much credit to the Great Man Theory, but I wonder what other nations and empires could have been saved if one man decided to be disloyal and take things into their own hands.
云运晕允匀韵陨孕耘蕴
Choose from these 10, the most prevalent characters. It's a hit-or-miss, right?!
'炫' Is this it?This is the only character I can think of that's closest to pronunciation and meaning,but it means boasting and showoff rather than strength to my knowledge?Also makes sense because the next dynasty after the Qing,which has a water element, should have a fire element to it's character.
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Japhy
Banned
Three: The Goodbye
Imperial Court, Nanjing
April 29th, 1872
Imperial Court, Nanjing
April 29th, 1872
The party was garish. Too bright, too colorful, and too loud. The menu included staples that would have been fit to serve at Delmonico’s and strange dishes that General Herman Haupt had never imagined in his life before he’d taken the contract.
An then there were the languages, Cantonese, Hunanese, Mandarin, Shanghainese, every one of them still a mystery, but identifiable, categorized after years of railroad management. Pidgins for each of those, which were by this point actually something he got. And then French and English the ubiquitous languages of the diplomatic staffs here in Nanjing. All coming together at once, blurring a thousand conversations into one ebbing and flowing crash.
China had been such a very strange place to go.
He was going to miss it.
He was going to certainly miss the baijiu he was enjoying tonight, he’d likely never see it again once he returned to the United States.
He’d be on the train to Shanghai tomorrow morning, Ann had already left the country, was at least in Hawaii by now. And so here he was, waiting for the festivities to end and for him to go home, an odd feeling for the guest of honor certainly.
It was the end of an era, five years on the job, longer than he’d worn his uniform in the war back home. But he’d been paid well, and it had been damned interesting work. Mines and foundries, machine works and repair shops, miles of track, leagues of surveys, the groundwork for an engineering college. He hadn’t done it alone but he’d been the man in charge.
Well at least partly.
The man who had been in charge was walking over towards him, in his normal three piece suit with high starched collar. Yung Wing, Minister of Trade was the only man in the government who regularly wore western clothing to events. It was part of his image as the returned son, modernizing his country with all he had learned at Yale.
“You know General, they’re getting used to these kind of events here in the court. We should offer you all bonuses’ for getting everyone hooked on them.” Yung smiled as he enjoyed a glass of imported wine.
“The Emperor hasn’t been patronizing them very often though, isn’t that going to cause trouble with them?”
“His Majesty hasn’t been one to attend court functions at all you know, doesn’t much involve himself in the running of things either. Except the Library.”
The Imperial Library had become the great project of the Emperor since he’d been able to return to Nanjing in triumph in 1865. The place was massive, with works being transcribed and printed from across China and the world itself. And Zeng Guofan had retreated into it, obsessed over it with loving detail.
“The last time I met him, was to discuss the Library. He wanted to put laboratories on the campus.”
The Minister nodded. “Yes, well, thats nothing new, how many nick-knacks were stores in the Library at Alexandria after all? We’re going to build it all too you know, even after he’s left the Empire behind him.”
“Not too soon I’d hope.”
Yung offered a slight shrug. “Sooner rather than later, he’s an old man and not in the best of health. He’s laid things out though, for what comes after. Wants it to be a smooth transition. All quite proper.”
“I’m sorry to hear word of that.”
“Don’t worry about it Haupt. The man cares about the country more. And you did more than most for us.”
“I only did what I’d have done for any of the railroads I’ve worked for.”
“Nonsense Haupt, you never had to invent industries from scratch for your old railroads. But you did it for us, and we couldn’t have paid you enough.”
“Well if you want to give me an increase I wont mind.”
The two men smiled at that, before Yung looked down and opened his watch for a moment.
“Well there’s not a pay raise coming but you do have to get up on the stage for a moment.”
Oh Damn.
And now garishness turned to madness. It had been bad enough early on in the celebrations, when he’d had to lead a toast and shake everyone’s hand or bow and all that nonsense.
What in the blazes of hell is this going to be?
The small raised stage on one end of the hall provided the where and when Yung Wang was suddenly joined by the head of government for the whole country, who had not made it to the celebrations before hand, Haupt knew this was going to be trouble.
Zuo Zongtang wearing his formal robes as he came up to Haupt and was quick to offer a graceful bow when the American offered his. When the old General smiled it was clear he knew how much his highly paid engineer was uncomfortable with this sort of thing. Maybe as a result of that it was all very brief. His interpreter though was another issue entirely.
“General Haupt, you have provided the Yun Dynasty with great services over the past five years you have come to China. Thousands of our brightest minds now know Engineering, Chemistry and Physics thanks to your work and for that all of our nation is grateful.” There was a quiet smattering of applause at that.
“Beyond that, you have helped lay the groundwork for an industrial development the like of which our country has never seen, you have built us railroads and helped us develop the means of some day soon building our own. Throughout the five years of your mission, you have labored long, side by side with the sons of our nation, and have treated us with a dignity and respect that speaks volumes for you and our great friends the Americans.”
Haupt smiled. President Grant had told him in 1867 when he’d first been approached with this contract that it was in his interests after all to make the United States look good. Nice to know he’d helped take care of that.
“And you stayed longer than most. Admiral Ellet departed more than a year and a half ago. But you stayed. To get the job done. Because you are a man who stays by his word. For that we are most sincerely grateful. China is a land with too few friends in the world today. We would be eternally gladdened to count you among them.”
“It was a pleasure Sir, I was lucky to work with such men as I have in my term here. And it was a pleasure to experience your great country. After my years spent travelling it I can assure you, I will always be a friend of the Empire.” Haupt swiftly answered. They’d already given him awards last year, when Ellet had left, so that was out.
What was this about?
“Before you arrived here Haupt, the United States had already done great services to our country. Ginseng of course was always a better trade commodity to buy than Opium for one thing.” The room for a moment became awkwardly quiet at the mention of that troublesome narcotic.
“And far more recently than the start of our two nations trade relations, was in 1863 when Minister Yung returned to the United States, in the midst of your own Confederate and Copperhead Rebellions. Even in the midst of the greatest crisis your country had ever seen, help was more than willingly offered to us. All the machinery for our first modern machining plant was ordered, built, sold and imported to Shanghai to start the Jiangnan arsenal. In the midst of your own war. And now even more come from your well deserved peace to our humble shores.”
“And of course you started there General. Helped expand the arsenal, helped develop and plot the lines that will keep it supplied, will help grow it, and our other new factories. Steamships, rail iron, household goods and the means of our defense have all grown easier to have access too thanks to your efforts. The bonds between our two nations can only grow thanks to the fact that you have ensured that our country is more united. Our communities are ever more tied to the world’s trade, so that we can produce and we can procure for our people everything that the common American ‘homesteader’ can some day soon.”
A young staffer came up on stage with some sort of large scroll. And the Chief Minister continued, occasionally glaring over at his translator, annoyed even more than Haupt was that this was being dragged on. Certainly the Minister’s statements weren’t so long.
“It is a small gift of thanks to offer you, but the Minister of Trade insisted you would like it nonetheless.” And suddenly the thing was unfurled. It was a massive map of China. From Guangzhou to the Hailar-Nen border on the Siberian-Manchurian border, and last outpost of the Empire at Kokand. Everything labeled, everything clearly marked in Chinese and English in small fonts. small lines and artful hash marks covering the works.
It was every inch of railroad he had planned in a thousand meetings, even things that had been filed away to not be worked on for decades, every area marked by the surveys as a place to develop the mines, every stop at every city, or town or planned out community that didn’t exist yet laid out. More railroad than would ever be built in his lifetime, or Yung’s for that matter.
“You have laid out a blueprint General, for the development of our people, and laid the cornerstone. Few of us shall live to see it, but we wanted to ensure that you would.”
Haupt could only smile. And suddenly realized that his eyes were watering.
He really was going to miss this place.
An then there were the languages, Cantonese, Hunanese, Mandarin, Shanghainese, every one of them still a mystery, but identifiable, categorized after years of railroad management. Pidgins for each of those, which were by this point actually something he got. And then French and English the ubiquitous languages of the diplomatic staffs here in Nanjing. All coming together at once, blurring a thousand conversations into one ebbing and flowing crash.
China had been such a very strange place to go.
He was going to miss it.
He was going to certainly miss the baijiu he was enjoying tonight, he’d likely never see it again once he returned to the United States.
He’d be on the train to Shanghai tomorrow morning, Ann had already left the country, was at least in Hawaii by now. And so here he was, waiting for the festivities to end and for him to go home, an odd feeling for the guest of honor certainly.
It was the end of an era, five years on the job, longer than he’d worn his uniform in the war back home. But he’d been paid well, and it had been damned interesting work. Mines and foundries, machine works and repair shops, miles of track, leagues of surveys, the groundwork for an engineering college. He hadn’t done it alone but he’d been the man in charge.
Well at least partly.
The man who had been in charge was walking over towards him, in his normal three piece suit with high starched collar. Yung Wing, Minister of Trade was the only man in the government who regularly wore western clothing to events. It was part of his image as the returned son, modernizing his country with all he had learned at Yale.
“You know General, they’re getting used to these kind of events here in the court. We should offer you all bonuses’ for getting everyone hooked on them.” Yung smiled as he enjoyed a glass of imported wine.
“The Emperor hasn’t been patronizing them very often though, isn’t that going to cause trouble with them?”
“His Majesty hasn’t been one to attend court functions at all you know, doesn’t much involve himself in the running of things either. Except the Library.”
The Imperial Library had become the great project of the Emperor since he’d been able to return to Nanjing in triumph in 1865. The place was massive, with works being transcribed and printed from across China and the world itself. And Zeng Guofan had retreated into it, obsessed over it with loving detail.
“The last time I met him, was to discuss the Library. He wanted to put laboratories on the campus.”
The Minister nodded. “Yes, well, thats nothing new, how many nick-knacks were stores in the Library at Alexandria after all? We’re going to build it all too you know, even after he’s left the Empire behind him.”
“Not too soon I’d hope.”
Yung offered a slight shrug. “Sooner rather than later, he’s an old man and not in the best of health. He’s laid things out though, for what comes after. Wants it to be a smooth transition. All quite proper.”
“I’m sorry to hear word of that.”
“Don’t worry about it Haupt. The man cares about the country more. And you did more than most for us.”
“I only did what I’d have done for any of the railroads I’ve worked for.”
“Nonsense Haupt, you never had to invent industries from scratch for your old railroads. But you did it for us, and we couldn’t have paid you enough.”
“Well if you want to give me an increase I wont mind.”
The two men smiled at that, before Yung looked down and opened his watch for a moment.
“Well there’s not a pay raise coming but you do have to get up on the stage for a moment.”
Oh Damn.
And now garishness turned to madness. It had been bad enough early on in the celebrations, when he’d had to lead a toast and shake everyone’s hand or bow and all that nonsense.
What in the blazes of hell is this going to be?
The small raised stage on one end of the hall provided the where and when Yung Wang was suddenly joined by the head of government for the whole country, who had not made it to the celebrations before hand, Haupt knew this was going to be trouble.
Zuo Zongtang wearing his formal robes as he came up to Haupt and was quick to offer a graceful bow when the American offered his. When the old General smiled it was clear he knew how much his highly paid engineer was uncomfortable with this sort of thing. Maybe as a result of that it was all very brief. His interpreter though was another issue entirely.
“General Haupt, you have provided the Yun Dynasty with great services over the past five years you have come to China. Thousands of our brightest minds now know Engineering, Chemistry and Physics thanks to your work and for that all of our nation is grateful.” There was a quiet smattering of applause at that.
“Beyond that, you have helped lay the groundwork for an industrial development the like of which our country has never seen, you have built us railroads and helped us develop the means of some day soon building our own. Throughout the five years of your mission, you have labored long, side by side with the sons of our nation, and have treated us with a dignity and respect that speaks volumes for you and our great friends the Americans.”
Haupt smiled. President Grant had told him in 1867 when he’d first been approached with this contract that it was in his interests after all to make the United States look good. Nice to know he’d helped take care of that.
“And you stayed longer than most. Admiral Ellet departed more than a year and a half ago. But you stayed. To get the job done. Because you are a man who stays by his word. For that we are most sincerely grateful. China is a land with too few friends in the world today. We would be eternally gladdened to count you among them.”
“It was a pleasure Sir, I was lucky to work with such men as I have in my term here. And it was a pleasure to experience your great country. After my years spent travelling it I can assure you, I will always be a friend of the Empire.” Haupt swiftly answered. They’d already given him awards last year, when Ellet had left, so that was out.
What was this about?
“Before you arrived here Haupt, the United States had already done great services to our country. Ginseng of course was always a better trade commodity to buy than Opium for one thing.” The room for a moment became awkwardly quiet at the mention of that troublesome narcotic.
“And far more recently than the start of our two nations trade relations, was in 1863 when Minister Yung returned to the United States, in the midst of your own Confederate and Copperhead Rebellions. Even in the midst of the greatest crisis your country had ever seen, help was more than willingly offered to us. All the machinery for our first modern machining plant was ordered, built, sold and imported to Shanghai to start the Jiangnan arsenal. In the midst of your own war. And now even more come from your well deserved peace to our humble shores.”
“And of course you started there General. Helped expand the arsenal, helped develop and plot the lines that will keep it supplied, will help grow it, and our other new factories. Steamships, rail iron, household goods and the means of our defense have all grown easier to have access too thanks to your efforts. The bonds between our two nations can only grow thanks to the fact that you have ensured that our country is more united. Our communities are ever more tied to the world’s trade, so that we can produce and we can procure for our people everything that the common American ‘homesteader’ can some day soon.”
A young staffer came up on stage with some sort of large scroll. And the Chief Minister continued, occasionally glaring over at his translator, annoyed even more than Haupt was that this was being dragged on. Certainly the Minister’s statements weren’t so long.
“It is a small gift of thanks to offer you, but the Minister of Trade insisted you would like it nonetheless.” And suddenly the thing was unfurled. It was a massive map of China. From Guangzhou to the Hailar-Nen border on the Siberian-Manchurian border, and last outpost of the Empire at Kokand. Everything labeled, everything clearly marked in Chinese and English in small fonts. small lines and artful hash marks covering the works.
It was every inch of railroad he had planned in a thousand meetings, even things that had been filed away to not be worked on for decades, every area marked by the surveys as a place to develop the mines, every stop at every city, or town or planned out community that didn’t exist yet laid out. More railroad than would ever be built in his lifetime, or Yung’s for that matter.
“You have laid out a blueprint General, for the development of our people, and laid the cornerstone. Few of us shall live to see it, but we wanted to ensure that you would.”
Haupt could only smile. And suddenly realized that his eyes were watering.
He really was going to miss this place.
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Japhy
Banned
I've always sort of had an odd view of the Great Man theory, that there are always spares. For example: I think the role of Lincoln could have been played by only two other men: Seward and Stephen Douglas, or that Churchill in 1940 didn't have many spares. Greatness can be achieved without the main guy that person is not in and of themselves some special mover that will transform anything, but they do take that role when they assume the necessary position.
Zeng in my opinion is the spare. Had he gone against his own thoughts on the matter, had he been influenced by a surviving brother than maybe yeah he could have changed things. But instead the hand on the till fell on Cixi, with pretty disastrous results. Thats not to say I think removing her is the simple solution, to go back to the first analogy, if Simon Chase had been President in 1860, it would have just been too easy at some bloody, dark hour to make peace. If it wasn't Cixi and it wasn't one of "The Spares" things probably would have been worse.
And of course, Zeng's government would have some pretty massive flaws in it, as future updates are going to show. Things are in a way better, in that the government is going to have an active interest in technological reforms and Self-Strengthening, but that is going to come with some high prices.
Like I said guys I really have no idea, I cant read any form of Chinese, nor can I speak it. I took American Sign Language in college. If it doesn't work it doesn't work but I'll stick with it until the end of the timeline to avoid Orwellian editing and fix it up on a rewrite in the end.
Dude, this is bloody awesome. Wonder what's happening across the sea in Japan right now.
Marc A
Marc A
Panic
PANIC! but also probably the Japanese, Koreans and others are thinking that they need to modernize quickly to avoid becoming dominated by an outside power like China.
PANIC! but also probably the Japanese, Koreans and others are thinking that they need to modernize quickly to avoid becoming dominated by an outside power like China.