TLIAD: La Isla Blanca

[Turquoise Blue]

Cool here. Can't wait for the restoration of democracy.

 

[Lord Roem]

As a serious comment, I didn't spot 'Vectis' the first time around, so was disapponted there was no longer any mention of the IoW. But of course there is! And a clever one, too. I will admit I think you're taking the piss with the Puritan names now (I mean that affectionately).

But neither of those are meaningful criticisms: the world you're creating is EdT and Thande -esque, which is a great compliment. Our *Spanish Civil War has come earlier than expected, it seems, and Grierson is our Franco. L'État is a magnificent way of suggesting in one, simple word that France is fascist (or worse) now. And 'Viennese Collective' is my favourite addition to the canon.

Onwards, Jack. This is a great piece of work.

Hah - many thanks Tom!

Yeah, I would be rather interested to see how 'Vectis' gradually becomes more of a litmus test for patriotism ITTL. Obviously, you don't really need to do it with Gibralter - what with it already being one of the pillars of Hercules and everything - but the Isle of Wight doesn't quite have the same mythos attached to it, beyond the aforementioned paganism.

It's all about throwaway comments here and there, and I'm not trying to be entirely serious (although, as with everything, it's about absurdities sounding plausible wherever possible.)

Not much to go now - sorry for the tardiness of the reply, it's the last week in the office before Christmas, but I've only got the one update left to do now.

Are you trying to have Wales be Catalonia here?

More 'Basque' than anything, Scotland - what with the NOT COMMUNIST commune and everything - is more Catalonia.

 

[Turquoise Blue]

More 'Basque' than anything, Scotland - what with the NOT COMMUNIST commune and everything - is more Catalonia.

Pretty fitting analogue.

 

[OwenM]

More 'Basque' than anything, Scotland - what with the NOT COMMUNIST commune and everything - is more Catalonia.

The whole repeated references to "Cymru" rather suggested stronger Welsh nationalism, but the miners initially made me think Catalonia ahead of the Basques.

 

[Sulemain]

Amazing Anglo/Spanish reversal.

 

[B_Munro]

Although the fact that the British are even talking about getting into general wars on the continent indicates they're a stronger power than OTL Spain at the time.

Delightful TL, Lord Roem. One wonders what goes on in North America?

Bruce

 

[tonsofun]

I must admit this tl has fascinated me more than most in absolutely ages.

 

[martin76]

Well, I see a few differences. Spain never wanted to conquer England (and less Britain or the island of Wight... .they had Antwerp, Ostende, Nieuport or Dunkerque.. so, Why Wight island?
For the Powerful King Philipp II, England was always a secondary goal... he only wanted to establish a Catholic Dinasty.. the Great enemies were not England, but the Dutch rebels, the French Huguenots, the German Protestant... and Ottoman and berbers in Mediterranean Sea.
So, if the Spanish army had landed in England, It would have defeated the English forces, established a Catholic Royalty (as It was done in France) and evacuated the country. Only a child can believe the Spanish objective was to conquer England and the annexation of the Island as a part of the Spanish Empire ... that never was the goal. Restore the Catholicism that was the main goal. So, had Spanish army landed in England... history would have been similar.. but with a Catholic Dinasty.
By other side, 1588 was not a dissaster and not a decisive victory for England.

And Wight? One reason why the Spanish Empire should spend energy on that little island?

 

[Meadow]

Well, I see a few differences. Spain never wanted to conquer England (and less Britain or the island of Wight... .they had Antwerp, Ostende, Nieuport or Dunkerque.. so, Why Wight island?
For the Powerful King Philipp II, England was always a secondary goal... he only wanted to establish a Catholic Dinasty.. the Great enemies were not England, but the Dutch rebels, the French Huguenots, the German Protestant... and Ottoman and berbers in Mediterranean Sea.
So, if the Spanish army had landed in England, It would have defeated the English forces, established a Catholic Royalty (as It was done in France) and evacuated the country. Only a child can believe the Spanish objective was to conquer England and the annexation of the Island as a part of the Spanish Empire ... that never was the goal. Restore the Catholicism that was the main goal. So, had Spanish army landed in England... history would have been similar.. but with a Catholic Dinasty.
By other side, 1588 was not a dissaster and not a decisive victory for England.

And Wight? One reason why the Spanish Empire should spend energy on that little island?

It is an exercise in the consequences of Spain taking over a small bit of England rather than the other way around.

I also think the first post gives an excellent breakdown of how the occupation actually happens - sort of by accident, and then becomes permanent out of a sense of misplaced honour.

 

[NCW8]

And Wight? One reason why the Spanish Empire should spend energy on that little island?

It's a good place from which to project power in the Channel, in the same way that Gibraltar was a good base for Britain to project power in the Mediterranean. That should help them against the French and Dutch, as well as the English.


Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[martin76]

It's a good place from which to project power in the Channel, in the same way that Gibraltar was a good base for Britain to project power in the Mediterranean. That should help them against the French and Dutch, as well as the English.


Cheers,
Nigel.

But Britain lacked of any land in Mediterranean... and Spain had lot of places more important than Wight in North Sea: Ostende, Antwerpen, Bergen etc.. Wight would have been interesting to Portugal or berber or ottoman.. but not to Spain...Spain only wanted one thing from England: not support to Dutch rebels...and for that It was needed a Catholic monarch in London. Who? I don´t know.. maybe a Spanish Habsburg as Don Juan de Austria, but I am not sure because Philip always was jealous of his half brother. If they were able to land.. it would have been easy to establish the Catholic Dinasty. The Pirate Queen would have been sent to Spain and had spent the rest of her life in a convent ... probably in Zaragoza or in Ávila ...I think

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Martin, I know the idea makes little sense if you think too much about it, but TLIADS have always been more relaxed when it comes to plausibility.

 

[martin76]

Martin, I know the idea makes little sense if you think too much about it, but TLIADS have always been more relaxed when it comes to plausibility.

You are right... TL are always more relaxed... but I understand them if they are plausible. Here the orders gave by Philip II (in Old Spanish and translate):

To Marquis of Santa Cruz:

Iréis derecho al Canal de Inglaterra, saliendo por él arriba hasta el Cabo de Margat, para daros allí la mano con el Duque de Parma, mi sobrino, y allanar y asegurar el paso para su transitó. Porque el bien de este negocio consiste en ir a la raíz, aunque Draque hubiese salido para estos mares... con el fin de divertir y embarazar (como por avisos de Inglaterra se ha dicho), no habéis de torcer el viaje sino proseguirle, sin buscar al enemigo, aunque quedase por acá”. Bien es verdad que dice: “si se quedase por acá”; de todos modos se ha subrayado lo que parece empujar a ir a cabo Margate, lo antes posible pasase lo que pasase. “Si no topárades enemigo hasta Cabo Martgat y hallárades allí al Almirante de Inglaterra con su Armada, solamente; y aunque topárades juntas las del dicho Almirante y la de Draque, sería la vuestra superior a entrambas en calidad; y así en el nombre de Dios, y con tal causa como lleváis, podréis, procurando ganarle el viento y todas las demás ventajas, darles la batalla y esperar de Nuestro Señor la Victoria.”

(You directly go to English Channel til Margate and there (Margate) you join the Duke of Parma, my nephew, and you ensure the landing. The goal is to go to the root, although Drake come to our coast to draw our attention, although he landed in our coast (as we know by dispatches from England), under any circumstances you change the goal. Whatever happens, Margate is the goal. If you see the Admiral of England in Margate, alone or attached to Drake, being your fleet higher quality, you will try and being at windward and you attack and wait from Our Lord the victory.

The king added:

“Esto de combatir se entiende si de otra manera no se puede asegurar al duque de Parma el tránsito para Inglaterra, que pudiéndose sin pelear asegurar este paso, por desviarse el enemigo, o de otra manera, será bien que hagáis el mismo efecto, conservando las fuerzas enteras”

What fight must be understood if there is no way to safe the passage of Duke of Parma to England, that if it is possible to cross without fighting, because enemy is not there or by others reasons, It would be good you retain the whole forces.

In the Secret Order, Philip wrote:

Puesto en el Cabo Margat, adonde habéis de hacer esfuerzo de llegar con el Armada, allanando las dificultades que en el camino se opusieron...”, le dice coloque la gente de desembarco a las órdenes de don Alonso de Leiva donde le haya dicho el duque de Parma. Viene después algo que parecer paliar la firmeza del deseo de llegar pronto a cabo Margat: “..

You should strive to reach Margate, where you have to make effort to arrive with the Fleet, cleaning the difficulties you find in the route. You must place tte Assault Force under Don Alonso de Leiva´s Command where Duke of Parma has ordered...

An now what is ordered about the island of Wight:

.Si no pudiese pasar el duque, mi sobrino, a Inglaterra, ni vos daros la mano con él sí podríades apoderados de la isla de Wych (Wight), que no es tan fuerte que parezca que pueda resistir.

(If the Duke, my nephew, couldn´t cross to England nor you join with him, you can take the island of Wight (in XVI Century Spanish, Wych), that is not a strong point and doesn´t seem can withstand).

So It is clear tha Wight islan is very very secondary goal.. the main goal: To land in Margate.. 30.000 spanish veterans in Margate mean the road to London is Open.. the end of Elisabeth as a Queen of England.

The Wight operation only would have happened if:
1.- Duke of Parma couldn´t cross through the Channel
2.- It isn´t possible the join between the Fleet and the Army of Flanders.

Regards

 

[Lord Roem]

(Taken from ‘counterfactual.minitel.nd’, retrieved on Friday 19th December, 2014)

The Gazette: “Ferry Embargo 'May Be In Violation of Antwerp Settlement’”

Spain should set out a "more robust" response to British incursions into Spanish territorial waters around the Isla Blanca - whilst also considering legal action against London, Parliamentarians have said.

Recent British incursions into Spanish-controlled waters around the Isla Blanca have prompted a furious response from the Cortes, who have accused London of ‘unprovoked acts of aggression’ and contributing to perceptions of the overseas territory being ‘under siege.’

Returning from European Confederacy budget negotiations in Cracow - the Spanish Foreign Minister, Alberto de Guindos Jurado, demanded an ‘immediate halt’ to the regular entry of British-owned ships into the ocean surrounding the controversial territory.

It is estimated that over a thousand such incursions have taken place since the start of 2014.

The United Kingdom has contested Spanish claims to the island - known as ‘The Isle of White’ in English and which was ceded to Madrid after the partial success of the Armada in 1588 - for many years, although London’s rhetoric has increased dramatically since the economic downturn began in 2009.

The United Kingdom introduced tougher passport controls in Portsmouth, the only British port-of-entry to Isla Blanca, in 2012.

The Cortes’ Committee on Foreign Affairs protested the decision, accusing the British authorities of “abrogation of the Settlement of Antwerp” - which enforces free movement throughout the EC.

The Committee also stated that, “British actions against the people of Isla Blanca is completely unacceptable and have resulted in serious disruption to the local economy.”

“We have no doubt that the decision to introduce exit checks in Portsmouth is nothing more than political point-scoring, and that the border is now being used as little more than a means of coercion.”

The British Ambassador to Spain was summoned to the Spanish Foreign Office yesterday in order to explain the Committee’s findings.

Guindos Jurado has given the United Kingdom six weeks to rescind the checks - pending a formal complaint to the European Court of Extraterritorial Affairs.

The British government has rebuffed the claims.

Speaking in the House of Commons, the Under-Minister for Southern Affairs, Immaculate Skinner, responded to the report.

“Spanish attempts to redraw and extend her territorial borders are completely unacceptable to HM Government,” he said, citing the controversial construction of an artificial reef off the coast of Chaja, “there is absolutely no moral high-ground to be taken by Madrid.”

Proposals for Anglo-Spanish joint-sovereignty over the controversial territory were resoundingly rejected in a plebiscite held in 2002.

“The people of Isla Blanca have made their intentions perfectly clear,” Guindos Jurado informed The Gazette, “it is high time that the British government respected that.”

Thoughts?

Personally, I find it pretty horrendous that the British government is allowed to just get away with oppressing their fellow European Citizens. Isn’t it about time that Spain just told them where to get off?

Is Isla Blanca part of the EC or not? ‘cos if yes, that’s a pretty big fine heading its way towards the British government

At least you posted this when all the New Danes are asleep, just so we can avoid all the claims that Britain is being Literally Bucard.

I kind of understand what the Spanish issue is here - yeah, the only reason that Fear-God Gove is making a fuss about this now is because the economy is still in the shitter, but - at the same time - there’s legitimate criticisms of how Isla Blanca is basically acting like a magnet for tax-avoidance schemes and cheap booze.

They aren’t even pretending that this isn’t the case, so it’s not surprising that we’re starting to make a fuss about it - especially given the state of the economy on the South Coast...

Lawn - I like you, and you're always a lot more moderate than many of your compatriots, but I have to take issue with this. You’ve said yourself that Gove is only really bothered about diverting attention away from Austerity - so I don’t see how seriously we should take these ‘complaints’ given that everyone was perfectly happy with being allowed to go gambling and buy cheap Sherry when the housing bubble was in full swing.

The Committee didn’t even mention those British towns in Oldenburg?

Spain - I am disappoint...

Not that f-cking canard again.

William’s Harbour and Stade were given to us in a Treaty when Richard IV married into German nobility in 1705.

Vectis was stolen by the Armada and then handed over in a treaty that has never been formally signed.

Look, I don’t really care about the d-mn place, it’s a couple of miles of Galician farmers, blood sausage (which, admittedly, is good enough to make it worthwhile starting a small atomkraft war over) and casinos, but let’s not try and compare chalk and cheese, alright?

Spoken like a true sell-out, Yorkist...

It doesn’t make up for Spain LITERALLY dumping rocks outside the Needles, destroying the scenery and disrupting OUR fisheries.

Apart from the fact that it - you know - is happening in Spanish Waters and you’ve overstepped fishing quotas for the past sixteen years, yeah, I entirely agree with you.

Spanish Waters? What Spanish Waters?

When we start sailing Stratocraft Carriers into Chaja Harbour and firing on the regatta, then we can start talking about ‘incursions’ - these are fishermen than are trying to make an honest living and, SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT, sometimes, you can’t always have control of the winds.

I’m not suggesting that your fishermen have to be fricking Boreas, but come on, you can’t just ‘accidentally’ cross over into someone else’s territory. I don’t think that illegal immigrants can cross over the border from Nuevo Grenada into New Denmark, so why should fishermen be any different?

Santiago - you've got a fair point here but as others have pointed out - this isn't about nationalism, it’s actually about ethics in territorial integrity.

[Nods Approvingly]

Nice, I ‘sea’ what you did there.

*eye twitches furiously*

Play nice guys.

At least Spain gave Catalonia an independence referendum...

 

[Rasputin]

Masterful. Of course we'd be wittering on about the Blancan Question every second week.

 

[Pete U]

You've made alt-Gove PM, you bastard

Fabulous end

EDIT: And sooooo many cameos

 

[V-J]

I've just read all this. It is fine and it is splendid. Many very well dones to the young milord!

 

[Alex Richards]

Fantastic ending there. I'm having fun trying to work out who all the alt-posters are.

 

[Sulemain]

That was amazing, utterly amazing.

 

[Geordie]

Fantastic ending there. I'm having fun trying to work out who all the alt-posters are.

I've identified a few, but not all, by any means...