The Union Forever: A TL
- Thread starter Mac Gregor
- Start date
@RyderWest sure if you keep in mind a different caliber and early inclusion of select-fire capability 
I had this one on the brain for two reasons: 1) it's got potential as a submachine gun that wasn't exploited until Korea so why not bump the timeframe, and 2) it ties in to future rifle development and evolution. I'm trying not to gun-spam the thread but rest assured I've got a more unique follow-on in mind.
I had this one on the brain for two reasons: 1) it's got potential as a submachine gun that wasn't exploited until Korea so why not bump the timeframe, and 2) it ties in to future rifle development and evolution. I'm trying not to gun-spam the thread but rest assured I've got a more unique follow-on in mind.
@RyderWest sure if you keep in mind a different caliber and early inclusion of select-fire capability
I had this one on the brain for two reasons: 1) it's got potential as a submachine gun that wasn't exploited until Korea so why not bump the timeframe, and 2) it ties in to future rifle development and evolution. I'm trying not to gun-spam the thread but rest assured I've got a more unique follow-on in mind.
Gun-spam the thread
It all depends on the state. There is no constitutional amendment mandating popular election but many are. However some state’s select senators by way of the legislature and/or governor.
Thank you.
Is there any major push for a 17th Amendment equivalent, and, if so, what party is it mostly associated with?
It comes up every now and then but there isn’t really a big push for it. Neither the Democrats or Republicans officially favor a constitutional amendment. However the minor third party American Socialist Party does list a proposed direct election of Senators amendment on their platform.
Weapon Profile: SAM-2 Dragon
So I know I said I'd lay off of gun-heavy guest updates, but I can't help wondering what the "bigger stuff" might end up looking like by the time the Asia-Pacific War rolled around. I won't speculate on what the ComNat/Portuguese would be using, let alone Japan or China or the URI. So I'll focus on the good ol' USN, with this entry being one of the quintessential missiles used during America's short foray against Japan (apologies for the length, wanted to get a "glimpse" of electronics development in as well). Enjoy!
Name: SAM-2 Dragon
Description: Long-range, multi-role naval Anti-Air Missile (AAM)/Anti-Surface Missile (ASM)
Length (w/ booster): 9.14m (30 ft)
Wingspan: 2.80 m (110 in) fully extended*
Diameter: 0.71 m (28 in); booster: 0.76 m (30 in)
Weight (w/ booster): 1,540 kg (7,800 lb)
Speed: S-2.5**
Ceiling: 24,400 m (80,000 ft)
Maximum Range: SAM-2B; 185 km (100 nm); SAM-2E: 314 km (170 nm)
Minimum Range: 9 km (5.85 nm)
Propulsion: MK 8 solid-fueled rocket booster; Allman Corp***. ramjet sustainer
Warhead: 136 kg (300 lb) continuous-rod HE warhead
Guidance: SAM-2B; initial Beam Riding, terminal Semi-Active Radar Homing (SARH)
SAM-2E; initial Autopilot, midcourse Command, terminal SARH
Adopted: 1959 (initial); 1974 (update)
Notes: After the combat debut of carrier-based Tachibana J86 jets by Japan at Hainan during the Second Sino-Japanese War, the United States Military began looking into developing a means of intercepting such high-speed aircraft at a respectable distance away from the fleet. Adding to this was the development by multiple navies around the world of a new weapon; the cruise missile. As such weapons, with their long range and ability to self-target enemy ships, began to be fielded by the Commonwealth of Nations, the German Empire, and others, the US opted to merge the requirements of an "anti-aerocraft missile" with those of a defensive weapon against cruise missiles. Given that the program start date followed the Army Air Corps' development of an Air-to-Air Missile (AAM), the number assigned to this project was SAM-2.
With design work starting in 1955 (mostly piggy-backed off of ongoing research into super-sonic aircraft and orbital launcher designs***), the materials science was largely present. The issue was how to guide a missile to hit another missile with sufficient accuracy to guarantee a kill (as well as at range and high-speed)? The solution was to mount two dedicated radar sets for each interception; one to "capture" outbound missiles (up to two per beam), and one to "paint" the desired target. These new missiles, dubbed the Dragon (because of its large size and huge flame plume produced upon firing), would be boosted off of dedicated launch rails into the guidance beam (typically putting them above 70,000 feet in altitude), then upon said beam's attenuation distance, actively begin "looking" for reflections of radar waves off the desired target, and dive vertically on top of it until its proximity fuse indicated a detonation. This not only helped extend the range of the missile (which, being ramjet-driven, operated well at high-altitude), but also made defense by aircraft difficult since pilots generally look down when dodging anti-aircraft fire. This also provided a secondary, but highly effective, role for the Dragon as an anti-ship ballistic rocket out to 25 nautical miles.
One downside of this guidance method is the limited number of targets that can be engaged at once by one ship; for all the range and heavy explosive power each missile had, only two enemy aircraft or missiles could be fired upon per ship, and often too close in (thanks to legacy search radar technology) before the distance closed too far for effective interception. Thankfully, the Navy's BuOrd and CNO concurred upon this fact as early as 1965. The fix would be found thanks to the Navy's Polaris system of navigation satellites****. By 1969, the circuitry package needed to guide a given airframe had shrunk by over three-fourths in size and bulk; this meant that the Dragon could have its beam-guidance package replaced by a high-accuracy autopilot with datalink (largely stemming from the Navy's still-under-development MEDUSA System*****) and tiny terminal guidance period. Thus, MEDUSA-compatible cruisers (the smallest class capable of shipping the plane-sized Dragons) could launch missiles as fast as mechanically possible without a solid lock yet, and paint desired targets only in the final, short stages of the salvo's intercept path (essentially juggling over three times the number of targets). It would initially be retrofitted gun cruisers (largely of the Henry Knox class) that started carrying this monstrous weapon, but it would be from the hybrid gas turbine-nuclear powered, MEDUSA-equipped Henry Lee-class battlecruisers****** that these missiles would earn their keep, and show their deficiencies.
While the situational awareness provided during the Iwo Jima landings by E-10 Eagle Eyes was quite exceptional despite so many simultaneous elements operating at once, even non-combat flight crews flying lazy orbits do get tired, especially when you have a billet of four AEW planes being filled by only two******* (effectively only one due to crew rest/safety requirements). It is under such conditions that a massive, 300-plus combined air, and long-range missile attack (along with a general surface assault comprising more than 12 Japanese ships) was launched against US and ComNat forces during the Battle of Iwo Jima on 06 November 1979 at approximately 0450, with relatively little warning. While the outer fighter screens from the Saratoga and Sundern scythed down over half of the total attacking fighters, the rest of the attack managed to break through the 100-mile barrier line, right into the jaws of the Dragon. Of the approximately 106 aircraft left at that point, less than 20 survived SAM-2 and defensive gun fire from the three missile cruisers assigned to Task Force Green (the U.S. component of the Bonin Islands campaign up to that point). However, seven ships were hit and sunk********by a new weapon unveiled during the battle: air-launched sea skimming missiles, often flying less than 20 meters above sea level (the SAM-2 only being rated to intercept targets at 50 meters and higher, the average minimum altitude of Japanese cruise missiles known at the time). This, combined with the Dragon's sluggishness (owing to its early design elements emphasizing aircraft interception more than missile), led to too many instances of SAM-2s completely over-shooting their targets or failing to lock on before they hit Allied shipping. This shortcoming is what led to the development of an all-purpose missile that could be used against long-range air targets or against short-range, low altitude threats at the horizon. It should be noted that, of the 12 Japanese vessels encountered during the battle, two of them were either sunk or sent listing by surface-targeted Dragons (and at least four being severely damaged or sunken during the Battle of Chichi Jima, not to mention the carnage wreaked on the Mimasaka's escorts during that skirmish which led to her sinking.).
* Unlike OTL's equivalent, the control fins here fold out upon start of guidance to target, they're not bolted on just prior to launch.
** Short for "Supersonic-factor", an alternative U.S. term for "Mach".
***ATL company, involved in making rocket components for the Columbus satellite and subsequent items for the USSA's Artemis program.
****Or rather, Inertial Guidance accuracy gained by autopilot technology as a result of Polaris' development
*****Muahahaha!
****** Picture an OTL Kiev in U.S. service that somebody slapped an SPS-48E/-49 suite onto, then said "we should swap out those SS-N-19s for NTU-compatible Not!Talos missiles as a super long-range air defense cruiser." And the Admiralty listened.
*******Such is life, going into combat with what you have and not what you need. I'm going with the E-10 being relatively new by this point, in limited numbers, and most carrier deck space during Iwo Jima optimized for land attack aircraft and fighter screens while neglecting early warning planes.
******** USS Valley Forge (CV-39), USS Mahetane (BB-61), USS Tampa (DDG-131/CG-31), USS Bayamon (DDG-119), USS Arroyo (LSD-3), RFA Wave King (A132), HMS Gibraltar (C23).
Name: SAM-2 Dragon
Description: Long-range, multi-role naval Anti-Air Missile (AAM)/Anti-Surface Missile (ASM)
Length (w/ booster): 9.14m (30 ft)
Wingspan: 2.80 m (110 in) fully extended*
Diameter: 0.71 m (28 in); booster: 0.76 m (30 in)
Weight (w/ booster): 1,540 kg (7,800 lb)
Speed: S-2.5**
Ceiling: 24,400 m (80,000 ft)
Maximum Range: SAM-2B; 185 km (100 nm); SAM-2E: 314 km (170 nm)
Minimum Range: 9 km (5.85 nm)
Propulsion: MK 8 solid-fueled rocket booster; Allman Corp***. ramjet sustainer
Warhead: 136 kg (300 lb) continuous-rod HE warhead
Guidance: SAM-2B; initial Beam Riding, terminal Semi-Active Radar Homing (SARH)
SAM-2E; initial Autopilot, midcourse Command, terminal SARH
Adopted: 1959 (initial); 1974 (update)
Notes: After the combat debut of carrier-based Tachibana J86 jets by Japan at Hainan during the Second Sino-Japanese War, the United States Military began looking into developing a means of intercepting such high-speed aircraft at a respectable distance away from the fleet. Adding to this was the development by multiple navies around the world of a new weapon; the cruise missile. As such weapons, with their long range and ability to self-target enemy ships, began to be fielded by the Commonwealth of Nations, the German Empire, and others, the US opted to merge the requirements of an "anti-aerocraft missile" with those of a defensive weapon against cruise missiles. Given that the program start date followed the Army Air Corps' development of an Air-to-Air Missile (AAM), the number assigned to this project was SAM-2.
With design work starting in 1955 (mostly piggy-backed off of ongoing research into super-sonic aircraft and orbital launcher designs***), the materials science was largely present. The issue was how to guide a missile to hit another missile with sufficient accuracy to guarantee a kill (as well as at range and high-speed)? The solution was to mount two dedicated radar sets for each interception; one to "capture" outbound missiles (up to two per beam), and one to "paint" the desired target. These new missiles, dubbed the Dragon (because of its large size and huge flame plume produced upon firing), would be boosted off of dedicated launch rails into the guidance beam (typically putting them above 70,000 feet in altitude), then upon said beam's attenuation distance, actively begin "looking" for reflections of radar waves off the desired target, and dive vertically on top of it until its proximity fuse indicated a detonation. This not only helped extend the range of the missile (which, being ramjet-driven, operated well at high-altitude), but also made defense by aircraft difficult since pilots generally look down when dodging anti-aircraft fire. This also provided a secondary, but highly effective, role for the Dragon as an anti-ship ballistic rocket out to 25 nautical miles.
One downside of this guidance method is the limited number of targets that can be engaged at once by one ship; for all the range and heavy explosive power each missile had, only two enemy aircraft or missiles could be fired upon per ship, and often too close in (thanks to legacy search radar technology) before the distance closed too far for effective interception. Thankfully, the Navy's BuOrd and CNO concurred upon this fact as early as 1965. The fix would be found thanks to the Navy's Polaris system of navigation satellites****. By 1969, the circuitry package needed to guide a given airframe had shrunk by over three-fourths in size and bulk; this meant that the Dragon could have its beam-guidance package replaced by a high-accuracy autopilot with datalink (largely stemming from the Navy's still-under-development MEDUSA System*****) and tiny terminal guidance period. Thus, MEDUSA-compatible cruisers (the smallest class capable of shipping the plane-sized Dragons) could launch missiles as fast as mechanically possible without a solid lock yet, and paint desired targets only in the final, short stages of the salvo's intercept path (essentially juggling over three times the number of targets). It would initially be retrofitted gun cruisers (largely of the Henry Knox class) that started carrying this monstrous weapon, but it would be from the hybrid gas turbine-nuclear powered, MEDUSA-equipped Henry Lee-class battlecruisers****** that these missiles would earn their keep, and show their deficiencies.
While the situational awareness provided during the Iwo Jima landings by E-10 Eagle Eyes was quite exceptional despite so many simultaneous elements operating at once, even non-combat flight crews flying lazy orbits do get tired, especially when you have a billet of four AEW planes being filled by only two******* (effectively only one due to crew rest/safety requirements). It is under such conditions that a massive, 300-plus combined air, and long-range missile attack (along with a general surface assault comprising more than 12 Japanese ships) was launched against US and ComNat forces during the Battle of Iwo Jima on 06 November 1979 at approximately 0450, with relatively little warning. While the outer fighter screens from the Saratoga and Sundern scythed down over half of the total attacking fighters, the rest of the attack managed to break through the 100-mile barrier line, right into the jaws of the Dragon. Of the approximately 106 aircraft left at that point, less than 20 survived SAM-2 and defensive gun fire from the three missile cruisers assigned to Task Force Green (the U.S. component of the Bonin Islands campaign up to that point). However, seven ships were hit and sunk********by a new weapon unveiled during the battle: air-launched sea skimming missiles, often flying less than 20 meters above sea level (the SAM-2 only being rated to intercept targets at 50 meters and higher, the average minimum altitude of Japanese cruise missiles known at the time). This, combined with the Dragon's sluggishness (owing to its early design elements emphasizing aircraft interception more than missile), led to too many instances of SAM-2s completely over-shooting their targets or failing to lock on before they hit Allied shipping. This shortcoming is what led to the development of an all-purpose missile that could be used against long-range air targets or against short-range, low altitude threats at the horizon. It should be noted that, of the 12 Japanese vessels encountered during the battle, two of them were either sunk or sent listing by surface-targeted Dragons (and at least four being severely damaged or sunken during the Battle of Chichi Jima, not to mention the carnage wreaked on the Mimasaka's escorts during that skirmish which led to her sinking.).
* Unlike OTL's equivalent, the control fins here fold out upon start of guidance to target, they're not bolted on just prior to launch.
** Short for "Supersonic-factor", an alternative U.S. term for "Mach".
***ATL company, involved in making rocket components for the Columbus satellite and subsequent items for the USSA's Artemis program.
****Or rather, Inertial Guidance accuracy gained by autopilot technology as a result of Polaris' development
*****Muahahaha!
****** Picture an OTL Kiev in U.S. service that somebody slapped an SPS-48E/-49 suite onto, then said "we should swap out those SS-N-19s for NTU-compatible Not!Talos missiles as a super long-range air defense cruiser." And the Admiralty listened.
*******Such is life, going into combat with what you have and not what you need. I'm going with the E-10 being relatively new by this point, in limited numbers, and most carrier deck space during Iwo Jima optimized for land attack aircraft and fighter screens while neglecting early warning planes.
******** USS Valley Forge (CV-39), USS Mahetane (BB-61), USS Tampa (DDG-131/CG-31), USS Bayamon (DDG-119), USS Arroyo (LSD-3), RFA Wave King (A132), HMS Gibraltar (C23).
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Yes. I’ve been meaning to but haven’t gotten to it yet. I’m traveling for work currently, but will try and get it done by the end of next month.
Fair question. The short answer is yes. I have been giving it some thought lately, and I’d like to take it to 2062 for a full 200 years after the POD. However, real life and writing for Orion’s Arm have taken up a lot of time. Cheers!
Deleted member 109224
I imagine it'd need a different title. The Union Forever comes from the lyrics of the song Battle Cry of Freedom.
Maybe...
Deo Vindice (The Confederate Motto)
Look Away, Dixie Land (Song Lyric - Dixie)
DM me. I've actually had some Confederate TL ideas.
The South had its own version of the Battle Cry of Freedom, in which it did use "Dixie Forever"
Thanks for the compliment. Best of luck if you choose to start your timeline.
JJohnson
Banned
Thanks! I readily admit I am a bit weak on the various generals and their strengths/weaknesses/personalities, so I'm studying up on all that now in preparation. Can I run some stuff by you?