The Union Forever: A TL

After lots of delays, I will get to working on a map.

Edit: @MacGregor: I can easily understand why Prussia has little to no Colonies, but why not Italy? They haven't really had anything that would stop them from gaining Colonies. That and the map of Africa looks boring with France owning half of it. :p

Yeah. Give Italy Tunisia, and/or Libya (or parts of it).

While I admit I am happy to have others agreeing with me, I will only change anything when MacGregor tells me to. Although I was thinking of having Italy take Ethiopia and Italian Somaliland (Eritrea is optional). In OTL Italy didn't take Libya until 1912 (although they were given the right to take it at the Congress of Berlin).

Here is the map. I messed around with Nigeria a bit just to make some of the borders look... different.

If anyone has any problems with it, let me know.

Hey everyone, to answer a few questions concerning the map. The reason that Italy doesn't have any major African colonies is that basically France bet them to it. Although I failed to mention it, Ethiopia, Morocco, and Siam remain independent because their independence is guaranteed by the 1877 Triple Kingdoms Accord between France and the UK who both wanted the lands, but didn't want to go to war over them (this accord also forbids other powers from conquering those lands). Italy currently does have a few small outposts in China and the Pacific but they aren't visible on the map.

Curly Gangster, thank for doing the map. It looks great except that there is no West Virginia in this TL, and Santo Domingo and Puerto Rico are still just commonwealths (i.e. Territories).

Cheers!
 
Because of this man: [IMG said:
http://www.astro.com/imwiki/adb/with/thumb002372.jpg[/IMG]

Seriously, MacGregor, can you give the Italians a CnC that is halfway competent (well, make them half-way competent overall)? Like, someone who doesn't shoot the officers of retreating units, institutes decimation, and orders massive frontal attacks with infantry against the same well-fortified emplacements ON TOP OF MOUNTAINS (once aforementioned techniques failed on the plains of Flanders) once they failed? Twelve times? And then gets promoted to Marshal for it?
HAHAHA Italy is a joke
 
hmm... how will ww1 go in this timeline... with such a broad common front that Prussia shares with Russia, there is a lot of ground to cover. The schleiffen plan is essentially thrown out the window in this TL (if it was even written). Unless Prussia decides to try it anyway in hopes of achieving a knockout blow to France. Though that is highly unlikely, considering the danger to the south and east. Most of the fighting will probably be done in central europe, with France mostly untouched, considering its small land border with Prussia, its use of belgium as a buffer, and the strength of the Italian army. This is just a few thoughts i had on how this TL might go, I don't claim to know anything.
 
Curious thought.
Since the US in this timeline is much more armed, would that mean the South Carolina beat the Dreadnought in construction? In addition, it won't have the tonnage limits impose on it by Congress not happen(Others navies had 18,000 tons, Congress limited them to 16,000)?

Due to butterflies neither the Dreadnought nor the South Carolina from OTL were constructed (There are ships by those names in service however). And Yes, the Battleships in this TL are larger than those of OTL due to a lack of treaty imposed limits. Cheers.
 
Well, considering the fairly massive slugging matches between Japan and Russia in the Far East (over 300,000 each on the field at any given time implies a heavy commitment of manpower by both Japan and Russia greater then what is initially indicated [considering the need to replace losses and rotate out troops and such, not to mention the need to organize logistics], see the Battle of Mukden), I think this effectively kills any Russian involvement in the first year of the war, at least, since they'll have to remain in a defensive stance for now (perhaps feeding troops to Prussia).

Also, given the now close relations between Prussia and Russia, would the two countries maintain an integrated rail system? If they do, it certainly might alleviate the gross supply problems the Russians faced in the first years of the war. This also being 1907, one can also expect Russia and Prussia to be relatively weaker then they would be in 1914, in comparison to France and Austria-Hungary. Given this, Prussia's going to take a beating (Italy also, especially if OTLs incompetence hasn't been handwaved). If Austria and France are going for a Prussia first strategy, they'll most certainly be going after the Saarland and the Ruhr (for France), and Silesia (for Austria), considering the industrial importance of these regions. Germany has no doubt prepared border fortifications but, considering the extremely long front they share with France-Bavaria-Austria, its doubtful that they're strong enough to hold back a coordinated offensive. In addition, both Austria and France will be putting pressure on Italy (now essentially cut off from the rest of the world, given Entente naval superiority and land borders), though they can still be a thorn in the side of Entente shipping in the Mediterranean. Given that the Balkan Wars haven't happened, I foresee one being sparked right about now, which means Austrians and Ottomans vs Serbs, Bulgarians, and Greeks (perhaps Romanians).

Don't think that'll end well for the Balkan powers if they can't launch a decisive enough offensive, considering French naval superiority (those powers are going to be in short supply of ammo, arms and supplies, once their initial offensives wear out, due to Entente blockade (which may discourage the Greeks). Also, with Entente naval superiority, the Ottomans will be able to ship over reinforcements and supplies (which, due to OTLs Greek Navy, they weren't able to do), and even token Austrian support puts Serbia in a completely encircled state (in three directions), as well as outnumbering the three.

Russia's also now fighting on three-four-five fronts (the Far East, the Caucasus, Galicia-Poland, [Prussia, and the Balkans also, perhaps)), and now face blockade on all three fronts (the Black Sea is decisively blocked off, the Far East is right out, and the the Baltic is iffy, since the Prussians should have a Kiel Canal). this'll most definitely force them to encourage the Balkan powers to get in on the action, simply so they can regain the Dardanelles, perhaps (a Russian-controlled Dardanelles, however, has been one of the worst nightmares of British diplomats for at least a century, however, which further complicates Britain's situation). On the other hand, Russia and Prussia complement each other economically, so they'll do better in that regard, maybe even without trade.

I really wish I wasn't Britain at this point. Given their tremendously conflicting interests (France and Russia), as well foreign commitments, they aren't in a position to intervene in the war. Best they remain neutral and sell copious amounts of arms to both sides (and reap major profits), as well as maintaining themselves as the future arbitrators of the peace. Do the have any signed alliances with anyone (like the Anglo-Japanese Alliance)? Those are going to be rather important in deciding which way they go, if at all.

Quick note about that map: Bulgaria's not on the Ententes side, I don't think. But anyway, this is an awesome timeline, and I await your next update.

Thanks for the wonderful comments and observations. You bring up great points. Keep the speculation coming.

(Bulgaria in the TL is actually an Ottoman puppet state so it delcared war along with the Ottoman Empire.)
 
Thanks for the wonderful comments and observations. You bring up great points. Keep the speculation coming.

(Bulgaria in the TL is actually an Ottoman puppet state so it delcared war along with the Ottoman Empire.)
So Bulgaria's a puppet state?

Well, doesn't look like the others (Greece, Serbia, and Romania) will be declaring war soon. Maybe if the Entente is about to fall apart, but at any point otherwise, its kinda suicidal.
Seconded.........I love Italy. :(
I do too. But their Commanders in both World Wars were oh so very horrid.
 
Hey everyone, to answer a few questions concerning the map. The reason that Italy doesn't have any major African colonies is that basically France bet them to it. Although I failed to mention it, Ethiopia, Morocco, and Siam remain independent because their independence is guaranteed by the 1877 Triple Kingdoms Accord between France and the UK who both wanted the lands, but didn't want to go to war over them (this accord also forbids other powers from conquering those lands). Italy currently does have a few small outposts in China and the Pacific but they aren't visible on the map.

Curly Gangster, thanks for doing the map. It looks great except that there is no West Virginia in this TL, and Santo Domingo and Puerto Rico are still just commonwealths (i.e. Territories).

Cheers!

Oh the Dakotas are split into North and South Dakota like in OTL too.
 
Hey Everyone,

I am currently working on the next updates which will cover the first weeks of the war (I have a feeling that many will be surprised by the course of events ). However, it would be of great help if someone wanted to estimate what the belligerent nation’s troop strength would likely be in 1907 during mobilization (either in number of personnel or divisions), or if someone could post a link to a good WWI sight that had comparable numbers.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Cheers!
 
The Great War: The Invasion of Italy
The Opening Moves

Part 1: The Invasion of Italy

italrest.gif

War Flag of the Kingdom of Italy

On October 11, 1907 the French 6th Army launched Opération Rivoli, the invasion of the Kingdom of Italy, with over 210,000 men. Occurring just three days after Italy honored its defensive alliance with Prussia and Russia and declared war on the French Empire, the massive French invasion into Northwestern Italy shocked the world. Indeed, most military experts before the war’s outbreak believed that France’s strategy in a general European war would be to rush as many troops as possible towards central Europe to guard against potential Prussian or Russian offensives into their ally Austria-Hungry. Napoleon IV however viewed the situation differently. With Russia distracted fighting Japan, it would be some time before the Russians could mount a serious offensive in Europe, freeing the French to attack Italy, the weakest of the Alliance members. Napoleon believed that occupying Italy would provide a second route to Austria-Hungry and ensure Entente domination of the Mediterranean Sea. Furthermore, Napoleon hoped that by knocking Italy out of the war early he could intimidate the Balkan states and Greece and keep them from entering the war.

The Italian Army was caught completely unprepared by the Imperial onslaught. The Italian King, Umberto I, believed that he would have weeks if not months to prepare his forces as the French and Austrians would be busy fighting the Prussians and Russians in the north. Unfortunately now just days into the war, his still mobilizing army was being squeezed between the French in the west and a significantly smaller Austro-Hungarian force in the east. Having introduced conscription at the turn of the century, the Italian Royal Army could muster around 300,000 men at the start of the war. Although outnumbering the attacking French, the Italians were horribly deficient in terms of machine guns, artillery, and aircraft.

Frightened Italian units in the Piedmont region began to fall back immediately. French naval superiority in the Mediterranean allowed for the heavy shelling of Genoa on October 15th which the Italians began fortifying in earnest. In the east, the Italians did manage to score an early victory against Austria-Hungry on October 23rd when they successfully repulsed an attack on the Isonzo river. On October 26, Turin fell to the advancing French after a valiant holding action by two Italian divisions allowed most of the Italian troops to escape east to Novara where the Italian army was planning to make a stand. A stand that many felt would decide the Italian campaign.
 
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October, 1907

On October 11th, 1907 the French 5th Army launched Opération Rivoli, the invasion of the Kingdom of Italy, with over 210,000 men. Occurring just three days after Italy honored its defensive alliance with Prussia and Russia and declared war on the French Empire, the massive French invasion into Northwestern Italy shocked the world. Indeed, most military experts before the war’s outbreak believed that France’s strategy in a general European war would be to rush as many troops as possible towards central Europe to guard against potential Prussian or Russian offensives into their ally Austria-Hungry. Napoleon IV however viewed the situation differently. With Russia distracted fighting Japan, it would be some time before the Russians could mount a serious offensive in Europe, freeing the French to attack Italy, the weakest of the Alliance members. Napoleon believed that occupying Italy would provide a second route to Austria-Hungry and ensure Entente domination of the Mediterranean Sea. Furthermore, Napoleon hoped that by knocking Italy out of the war early he could intimidate the Balkan states and Greece and keep them from entering the war.

The Italian Army was caught completely unprepared by the Imperial onslaught. The Italian King, Umberto I, believed that he would have weeks if not months to prepare his forces as the French and Austrians would be busy fighting the Prussians and Russians in the north. Unfortunately now just days into the war, his still mobilizing army was being squeezed between the French in the west and a significantly smaller Austro-Hungarian force in the east. Having introduced conscription at the turn of the century, the Italian Royal Army could muster around 300,000 men at the start of the war. Although outnumbering the attacking French, the Italians were horribly deficient in terms of machine guns, artillery, and aircraft.

Frightened Italian units in the Piedmont region began to fall back immediately. French naval superiority in the Mediterranean allowed for the heavy shelling of Genoa on October 15th which the Italians began fortifying in earnest. In the east, the Italians did manage to score an early victory against Austria-Hungry on October 23rd when they successfully repulsed an attack on the Isonzo river. On October 26th Turin fell to the advancing French after a valiant holding action by two Italian divisions allowed most of the Italian troops to escape east to Novara where the Italian army was planning to make a stand. A stand that many felt would decide the Italian campaign.
As always, great update. :D

Novara already? *winces* Not only has Turin (a major Italian industrial center) fallen, but the French are most definitely in the Po Valley. It's perfectly plausible that the Italians will hold at Novara, given probable French over-extension at this point, but Italy has already lost one of its major industrial hubs. If Milan falls (perhaps Venice also), then Italy will have to throw in the towel, as there would be no real way for them to continue to persecute the war. They are, for all intents and purposes, cut off from foreign and allied supply, and if the French push any deeper into the Po Valley (perfectly possible due to terrain even if they hold at Novara, given at most another year or two), the Italians will lose most of their industry.

I've also been mulling over the possibility of American or British intervention, and their likely effects on the war. Given at this point, the war is skewed already in favor of the Entente, I'll focus on their respective impacts on the war for the PRI alliance. Given the relatively frosty relationship between France and Great Britain and the United States, and given that the former hasn't (yet) lost its major industrial centers of Northern France or Alsace-Lorraine, the Entente is unlikely to procure war materiel in the same, desperate fashion OTLs Entente did from the US, at least initially. As more and more factory workers are called up to serve (and as women are being ushered into the factories, assuming this happens in the much more conservative/reactionary Entente), the need to procure war supplies from overseas sources (Britain and the United States) increases. Given, however, that France still maintains its native industrial production, the relative boost that the United States received post-WWI is much diminished (it now needs to compete with Britain as the source for neutral supplies, and with less demand for it), so it won't become quite the giant it did immediately after WWI (...this might mean a much longer lasting British Empire, or one with a more successful decolonization). Course, all the participants in this war are going to be major relative losers.

But anyway, I'm rambling. Back on American and British intervention. American intervention, in this scenario, is actually likely to be rather insignificant. While the United States can gear itself up to field a large army, it can't really do anything more than capture French holdings in the Caribbean and South America. The US lacks any major overseas coaling bases for its fleet, so the USN simply can't cross the Atlantic or the Pacific to open up sealanes for war supplies or troop shipments, or engage the (likely larger) French fleet. Well, they could, but it'd probably likely to end up like a Tsushima. Since there isn't any way for the US to supply or reinforce the PRI alliance safely and in any meaningful manner. The US would thus be most likely to fight against the Japanese in a naval war (with possible French detachments in the region), in an effort to inflict a decisive enough victory to force Japan out of the war and to open up Vladivostok to supply (still, the Trans-Siberian railroad is grossly insufficient, as are the facilities in Arkhangelsk).

Britain is another beast entirely, and I don't think it needs stating that it would end badly for the Entente.
 
As always, great update. :D



The US lacks any major overseas coaling bases for its fleet, so the USN simply can't cross the Atlantic or the Pacific to open up sealanes for war supplies or troop shipments, or engage the (likely larger) French fleet.

Britain is another beast entirely, and I don't think it needs stating that it would end badly for the Entente.

The US designed it ships to be coaled differently than the other Navies at this time and had a large fleet of colliers that were designed specifically for this possibility in OTL. They were also one of the leaders in oil burning tech for naval ships, along with the UK. Due to US petroleum supplies they looked at oil burning ships earlier than most navies.
 
The US designed it ships to be coaled differently than the other Navies at this time and had a large fleet of colliers that were designed specifically for this possibility in OTL. They were also one of the leaders in oil burning tech for naval ships, along with the UK. Due to US petroleum supplies they looked at oil burning ships earlier than most navies.
Ah, well then nevermind my musings.:)
 
As always, great update. :D

Novara already? *winces* Not only has Turin (a major Italian industrial center) fallen, but the French are most definitely in the Po Valley. It's perfectly plausible that the Italians will hold at Novara, given probable French over-extension at this point, but Italy has already lost one of its major industrial hubs. If Milan falls (perhaps Venice also), then Italy will have to throw in the towel, as there would be no real way for them to continue to persecute the war. They are, for all intents and purposes, cut off from foreign and allied supply, and if the French push any deeper into the Po Valley (perfectly possible due to terrain even if they hold at Novara, given at most another year or two), the Italians will lose most of their industry.

I've also been mulling over the possibility of American or British intervention, and their likely effects on the war. Given at this point, the war is skewed already in favor of the Entente, I'll focus on their respective impacts on the war for the PRI alliance. Given the relatively frosty relationship between France and Great Britain and the United States, and given that the former hasn't (yet) lost its major industrial centers of Northern France or Alsace-Lorraine, the Entente is unlikely to procure war materiel in the same, desperate fashion OTLs Entente did from the US, at least initially. As more and more factory workers are called up to serve (and as women are being ushered into the factories, assuming this happens in the much more conservative/reactionary Entente), the need to procure war supplies from overseas sources (Britain and the United States) increases. Given, however, that France still maintains its native industrial production, the relative boost that the United States received post-WWI is much diminished (it now needs to compete with Britain as the source for neutral supplies, and with less demand for it), so it won't become quite the giant it did immediately after WWI (...this might mean a much longer lasting British Empire, or one with a more successful decolonization). Course, all the participants in this war are going to be major relative losers.

But anyway, I'm rambling. Back on American and British intervention. American intervention, in this scenario, is actually likely to be rather insignificant. While the United States can gear itself up to field a large army, it can't really do anything more than capture French holdings in the Caribbean and South America. The US lacks any major overseas coaling bases for its fleet, so the USN simply can't cross the Atlantic or the Pacific to open up sealanes for war supplies or troop shipments, or engage the (likely larger) French fleet. Well, they could, but it'd probably likely to end up like a Tsushima. Since there isn't any way for the US to supply or reinforce the PRI alliance safely and in any meaningful manner. The US would thus be most likely to fight against the Japanese in a naval war (with possible French detachments in the region), in an effort to inflict a decisive enough victory to force Japan out of the war and to open up Vladivostok to supply (still, the Trans-Siberian railroad is grossly insufficient, as are the facilities in Arkhangelsk).

Britain is another beast entirely, and I don't think it needs stating that it would end badly for the Entente.

Great comments as usual. One thing however, you mentioned that if the USA entered the war on the Alliance side they could do little more than capture France's new world holdings. What about France's other colonies in Africa and Asia?
 
Great comments as usual. One thing however, you mentioned that if the USA entered the war on the Alliance side they could do little more than capture France's new world holdings. What about France's other colonies in Africa and Asia?
Africa: most certainly not. Since the bulk of the French fleet is based in the Atlantic/Mediterranean, its in a good position to greatly disrupt supply lines to and from any expeditionary force in Africa (not to mention that local colonial forces ought to be more than sufficient to throw back any amphibious assault launched from bases on the other side of the ocean). The same situation applies to French Indochina and other holdings in the West Pacific. Unless the United States has well-developed forward bases to launch these assaults, its unlikely that the US can dislodge defenders from these regions. It would be like the HSF trying to engage the USN on the other side of the Atlantic, and launch amphibious assaults on New York and other major cities (which was a German War Plan): impossible, simply due to logistics. Amphibious assaults at this time were bloody difficult, if the defenders were entrenched (and properly armed), even with extensive fleet support. See Gallipoli. Of course, the French don't likely have the ability to reinforce their positions as readily (though yes, if its Africa), but, then again, neither does the US (considering long supply lines).

So the question is: does the US have any overseas bases, like Guam, etc, and have the port and coaling facilities been developed to the extent necessary to sustain a battlefleet, replete with dreadnoughts (in other words: very well developed), and the merchant marine necessary to supply an expeditionary force on the other side of an ocean? It makes a pretty big difference.
 
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I should point out that if dreadnoughts(which may not be called dreadnoughts) have been introduced, the balance of naval power is more or less been reset as pre-dreadnought ships were considered obsolete and I've read that many of the ships that Britain were obsolete as well.

Also, American ships were designed for very long range and actually was a bit reluctant to switch to oil burning ships since they had less range. I think Samoa may be the only base the US has unless you decide US gain another island. Taiwan is about only one I can think of, but the US President felt that was too far away in OTL(as I mentioned before).
Either way, the US will still have to struggle with a long supply line.

I do feel that the US will likely make the biggest impact on the East Asia theater. For Europe, I suppose it does depend on if there another naval power in Europe to oppose it(did Prussia build that navy?).
There is also the question of will the Russian Baltic fleet still meet its end as you haven't stated if it results in a Battle of Tsushima.
 
I do feel that the US will likely make the biggest impact on the East Asia theater. For Europe, I suppose it does depend on if there another naval power in Europe to oppose it(did Prussia build that navy?).
There is also the question of will the Russian Baltic fleet still meet its end as you haven't stated if it results in a Battle of Tsushima.
Its probably in transit.

Which doesn't bode well for it, now that a major naval power is against it.
 
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