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I have no comment on the above. Haha.

But to answer HonestAbe's question, Asiana is the Latin Frankish Kingdom, the "Emperor in Asia" (and thus maybe Asian Empire) is how I'll refer to the state Niketas has created.

Yeah, the Asian "Empire" is a super loosely linked set of city states that manage their own affairs. There will be more coming soon on that matter.
 
that happens in the next thread
Central and East Asia

Oghuz Khaganate – Often better known as the Afsar Khaganate, the Oghuz Khaganate is a confederation of Turkic peoples that stretches from the Kitai Empire in the East to Kundajid and Iran in the West. Loosely united and dominated by the interests of the twelve tribes, all of which can claim relation to the broader Oghuz ethnic group, the Oghuz Khanagate is not exactly a strong state. The Afsar rule by consensus and many young men leave their clans to become mercenaries for the Xasar or the Ifthal, which is becoming an increasing problem in preserving the strength of their confederates. Even when these men return, as they sometimes do, laden with treasury and tall tales of victories over the mail-clad western princes, they bring with them disruptive ideas and foreign brides, often causing chaos. Times are changing for the Oghuz.

They have many vassals, particularly in the east – most notably the Naiman, Merkit, and Jalayr clans who together form the “three blood loyal” a coalition which at times has rejected the rule of the Turks and tried to establish for themselves a Mongol Confederation. In 1087 they were defeated at the battle of the Onon River, and since then have not had the same strength they once did. Now they are mostly content to provide a frontier against Jurchen and Kitai raiding parties.

However, the Onon River and its associated campaign demonstrated the weakness of the Afsar even in victory – as the Khagan proved incapable of restraining his subordinates and vassals. The more the Afsar settle along the rivers of Xvarasm and seek to centralize, the weaker their hegemony becomes – and by 1100 they are very much a settled tribe, with capital cities and great palaces. Reconciling this society and the past century of luxury with the hard life of a nomadic Khaganate is never an easy task. It was the Khirichan who came closest to doing so, but ultimately their model has proven tough to replicate on the more open steppe of Central Asia.

Kitai (Yaol Dynasty) – by the standards of Chinese dynasties, there is a sense of unprecedented arrogance in the Kitai. Successors to the Uighur Khaganate, they have been far more willing to compromise both culturally and politically with the Han majority and in doing so have created a stable empire.

The Kitai are a Buddhist regime which like many of their steppe cousins incorporates syncretic elements of traditional religion. Accordingly, they have granted unprecedented power to the Buddhist temples, a paradigm shift from the persecutions of the Qi. Instead it is the Taoist “mystery cults” which are persecuted, considered a threat and a source of resentment. Clothes and symbols which are part of traditional Chinese religion have been banned outright, allowing the government to easily target those who do not obey their decrees.

Tianzuo of the Yaol is the current Emperor, and he resides in the Great Palace at Kaifeng. There he is surrounded by beautiful songbirds and gardens measureless to man. From the north come Jurchen and Uighur potentates to pay tribute to him, and he no longer calls himself “North King” but, as his father before him, considers himself Emperor.

Despite all their palatial grandeur, the Yaol have some critical weaknesses. They have not been able to gain the merest foothold in the Tarim Basin. In 1081 a joint alliance of the Viasha and the Turfan were able to repel a Yaol invasion. Furthermore, the two major Yangtze states of Wu and Chu remain stubbornly independent and beyond their control, despite the best efforts of the Emperor.

Wu – The Wu kingdom is a major center of manufacturing, controlling most of the ports along the eastern coast of China and the mouth of the Yangtze. It is from Wu that most finished goods come, particularly the famed lacquerware which has made many a merchant wealthy. With the destruction of the Red Standard army, Wu has become something a prosperous, if traditionalist realm.

The Wu army is vastly inferior to that of its Kitai rivals – and indeed the survival of the Wu can be traced more to defensive strategy and a denante with Chu which has ensured they need not fear a two-front war.

Chu – After defeating Tibet, Chu has had few successes worthy of the name. A succession of generals have ruled Chu since that day. Unlike the Wu, Chu has become a very martial state, holding defensible mountainous uplands in excess and fortifying them well. Unlike Wu it has less to fear from the Kitai, but the Yaol dynasty is still the overriding defensive concern, and according Chu has never moved against Wu – maintaining the rough stalemate into the 12th century.

Buddhism is popular in Chu as well, but the people of Chu are very traditional – a mixture of the Hakka exiles from the north and a variety of indigenous peoples including the diverse ethnic groups of the mountainous Yunnan region. Each valley and mountain is said to keep its own rituals and culture, all separate from the Han influenced court rituals at Chengdu

Tai – The Tai are a curious people, deeply influenced by Hindu traders and merchants from Srivijaya as well as the Sinic settler population with which they coexist. To the Chinese their realm is either called the South Kingdom or the Daiya.

The ruler of the “South Kingdom” is an ambitious conquer named Xaysetta or Gaozong. Unlike his northern counterparts, the Tai rule more along the lines of the tribal mandala system used by the Khmer and others. There is a feudal sensibility to their rule as well – fortified villas are commonplace along the hills of the south, and they control the mountainous river valleys which define the geography of the region.

Tibet – In 1035, the Bod Empire finally collapsed. Despite a long-standing alliance between the Chu and the Bod, their pact collapsed due to border struggles, and after a series of major battles in which it seemed the Bod might triumph, Rhasa was sacked by a Chu army. The Bod Emperor was carried back to the Chu capital and the Empire was left in utter disarray.

Since that time, Tibet has been a nation in disarray. Local temples and tribal patriarchs control her mountains and valleys. Artistically and philosophically, it is a nation in retreat, uncertain of its new place in the world. The Buddhist sects which predominate teach utter detachment from the material world, and encourage many of the finest thinkers and teachers to isolate themselves in distant monastic communities. Suffering, after all, is the nature of things. The Empire is gone. There is no glory any longer, and the great halls of Rhasa lie barren and ash-filled. The splendor of Kings is transitory.

What is there now for the children of Bod?
 
Central and East Asia

Tai – The Tai are a curious people, deeply influenced by Hindu traders and merchants from Srivijaya as well as the Sinic settler population with which they coexist. To the Chinese their realm is either called the South Kingdom or the Daiya.

The ruler of the “South Kingdom” is an ambitious conquer named Xaysetta or Gaozong. Unlike his northern counterparts, the Tai rule more along the lines of the tribal mandala system used by the Khmer and others. There is a feudal sensibility to their rule as well – fortified villas are commonplace along the hills of the south, and they control the mountainous river valleys which define the geography of the region.

View attachment 277252
A Tai/Thai-wank, indeed!
I wonder what would be the Tai mandala's capital and their writing system. Oh, I forgot, while the Tai language in this period was relatively uniform, what specific dialect could be used as a standard, at least the language of the Tai royal court?
 
Feeble start? More like awesome start, @B_Munro! If you want to keep mapping, I can get you more specific detail on places left blank. At the very least some names.

@ramones1986 - perhaps not so much a Tai wank as a Tai replacement, in terms of location. The Tai capital is probably a place founded by the local King. I don't know enough about the Tai languages to be very qualified for this process, unfortunately. I'm trying to do more research, but if you have any ideas or anybody has any ideas, I'd appreciate some input. What I can say is that Tai in this world is going to be very Chinese influenced, because of the population dynamics at play in their southern territories.
 
Progress is likely to be slow, but I probably will keep it up. I wasn't quite sure what to put in those relatively blank parts of India ("gurjars" doesn't get me too far :) ): where do the locals go on the tribal village - tribal coalition - small kingdom - etc. spectrum? I may want to add a "pastoral clans/alliances which aren't states but still are impactful" color. What goes on north of Al-Taif's sphere of influence - after the destruction of Yathrib, has any new center of Christian Arab power emerged? More generally, are there anything like actual states in interior Arabia and north along the Empire's border? What goes on in the Yunnan area? (Zhao?) Again, what's the local level of political development? (Most maps show a state in the Yunnan area OTL around this time - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dali_Kingdom http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_1100ad.jpg , but I presume they have been butterflied).
 
Those east of Sindh and west of Chandratreya are small kingdoms. Akin to the Rajputs of our own history, really, mixed Gurjar and Turko-Afghan soldiers serving local princes. Relatively low infrastructure and development, in no small part because the region isn't great for agriculture. However Jharkhand and that whole big "bushland" region is even more primitive, tribal villages and even I think some indigenous hunter-gatherer communities still (although those are imperiled as per OTL).

The Dali Kingdom in this timeline was first a vassal of the Bod Empire and at this point is now a vassal of Chu. (I did mention it probably 400 years ago or so but it kind of slipped under the radar after that, unfortunately.) Dali is itself relatively advanced, if decentralized owing to the mountainous nature of Yunnan.

The northern Arabs are divided between the Saihist holdouts in the north around Ha'il and Al-Jawf. They've declined substantially. There's also (Christian) Arab tribes in the Sinai, the Banu Qaylah and the Banu Amela, who both trace their ancestry back to the Sabaeans and more recently were allies of the Heshanids. They have survived by fighting the Khardi in the desert quite successfully. They're both Monophysite. There are also Nestorian tribes - the Banu Numyar in particular around Bostra and the Banu 'Abs and Hanifa are Nestorian protectorates near Mesopotamia, serving a similar role to the ancient Banu Lakhm, but more nomadic. Tadmur once was ruled by the Ghatafan, but they were driven out by Syrian Arabo-Eftal peoples. Up around there is a petty Kingdom of Tadmur, which pays tribute to the Satrap of Syria. It's rulers are pagan-Buddhist, overseeing a large Nestorian population.
 
@ramones1986 - perhaps not so much a Tai wank as a Tai replacement, in terms of location. The Tai capital is probably a place founded by the local King. I don't know enough about the Tai languages to be very qualified for this process, unfortunately. I'm trying to do more research, but if you have any ideas or anybody has any ideas, I'd appreciate some input. What I can say is that Tai in this world is going to be very Chinese influenced, because of the population dynamics at play in their southern territories.
- I thought it would be OTL Canton/Guangzhou.
- Well, the Tai languages are divided into three groups: Northern, Central and Southwestern. The latter probably originated in the Dien Bien Phu region in present-day Vietnam, and I thought if it's really possible to spread their dialect/s to OTL Guangdong province because I thought the White/Southwestern Tai have a reputation as excellent soldiers, especially in the frontier.
- For the Tai writing system, both sawndip and sawgoek would be fine, although I'm biased toward the latter
 
You're right that Gaungzhou makes sense. As in OTL it's a significant city with a large foreign population. But I was thinking for a capital it should be more central, especially since the Tai themselves aren't exactly the maritime/commercial engine of this state, just migrants taking advantage of Qi China's collapse to move in on a very, very rich country.
 
Is Hunan's provincial capital of Changsha a good location for the Tai capital, or is it too far to the north? If it is a city built near the juncture of the three modern provinces of Hunan, Guangxi, and Guangdong would be a fairly secure central location for a capital.
 
Is Hunan's provincial capital of Changsha a good location for the Tai capital, or is it too far to the north? If it is a city built near the juncture of the three modern provinces of Hunan, Guangxi, and Guangdong would be a fairly secure central location for a capital.
'

Changsha is in Chu, I believe.
 
Hechi is plausibe, Chenzhou probably not. However I still envision further south and probably coastal or near a coast.

Also guys I meant to finish this timeline before I started my new job. I didn't quite get there, as you can see. What this means is that there will be a delay while I get settled in, then I'll finish this up and go into a new hiatus before starting the post-1100 timeline.

During that Hiatus, time depending, I may do a one-off timeline along the lines of New Paganism, if there is interest. I've grown rather fond of the idea of "cultural timelines" which don't change too much politically at first.

During this first, short hiatus, I will still be answering quick questions if anyone has an area they want fleshed out in greater detail that this timeline hasn't covered significantly. It'll be a chance for me to do some worldbuilding and for anyone whose curious to learn more about regions.

I also welcome anyone who wants to do guest posts during either hiatus if there's a part of the world you want to explore. Since early on the White Huns has been a project that others have contributed ideas and work to and I hope that continues past 1100.
 
I've been really wanting to do a series of vignettes of a TTL "Marco Polo"-type... now that my RL schedule is finally clearing up I have free time again!

I'd love to see some more details about the Mediterranean and East Africa first though... :)
 
Hechi is plausibe, Chenzhou probably not. However I still envision further south and probably coastal or near a coast.

If it has to be both "central" and "coastal" then Guangzhou or even Hong Kong are the best fit, since they're the closest to central position on the blob of coast designated to the Tai. I'd assume that the Tai King would want a large city to make his capital in, but I could be wrong and it's in a smaller city like Maoming or Yángjiāng.
 
I was wondering, what the architecture looks like, especially in the ATL Middle East. Does it in any way resemble, what we would consider in OTL as "islamic architecture" with its domes and arches? (Sorry, I'm a noob in regard to architecture, but I really would like to get a feeling how places in this TL look like. ;) ) On a related note: How about art and craftsmanship in general? I'm roughly familiar with that islamic art, which features geometrical patterns, at some point seemingly eschewed depiction of humans and animals, since it could be seen as idolatry. Is this different in this alternative Middle East?

What I am also interested in is, what effect the "asianification" (can this even be a word?) of the east slavic people had? What I get is, that they in OTL were more influenced by "western" influences (Orthodox Christianity+Greek derived script) and therefore were considered to be european in some extent. In this ATL they must be considered as "Asians", which are disconected from Europe by their religion and culture? But how does this culture look like? What kind of stories do mothers tell their children? In what script are said stories written? Is the outlook on the world (form of the government, morality/ethics) different from Western Europeans? In short: Is the culture radically different or are the influences yet not strong enough for the culture to be irrecognizeable from OTL?

I know, a lot of questions, but I'm always interested in what I would see, hear and even smell, when I walked down the road in an ATL city. This helps me a lot to become more immersed into the story :)
 
Since Eftal times, relief and painted icons have both been major parts of the architecture of the near east. That alone would mark this ATL near east as fundamentally different to traveler from OTL.

Pure stone buildings are considered ugly and are frequently painted, covered in stucco, or for the wealthy, covered in elaborate facades. The interiors of palaces and temples have many domes, columns, and archways, and in that sense at least resemble Islamic architecture. There is a fascination with geography and infinitely repeating patterns, however these patterns are more likely to be directly representational, or be crowned by a devotional icon of a deity or the Buddha. (In Nowbahar art, however, the Buddha is represented by absence, using such symbols as a tree, a stone, or a gout of flame to indicate his presence. The former comes from Indian tradition, the latter two from the Buddhists of the Arabian peninsula.) Beautiful art of course does not need to be religious in nature, and the houses of the rich might be adorned with endless patterns of swooping swans or dancing women.

The Khardi themselves, when they build major constructions, somewhat slavishly imitate older patterns. Theirs has not been a very artistically innovative era, as to no small degree they look back on the glories of the Eftal era. There is also a new sense of conservatism brought by the rise of the Nowbahar. Where Aghatsaghid art imitated the loose and hedonistic morality of the time (or so the Nowbahar would say) Khardi era art is often more serious and less self-aware. Their architecture prefers plain, rectangular forms. Even Nowbahar stupas and temples tend to be built as very functional complexes - although there is an emergent faction within the Nowbahar themselves that seeks to separate this sort of denial of pleasure from the denial of deities and embraces beauty and joy to a much greater degree.


The East Slavs, especially the Rus, are very much considered distinct from Europe. (Gardaveldi on the other hand is a bit of a weird exception) Their script is actually a (heavily) modified version of the Tocharian script, which has now come very, very far from home. Hobelhouse made a post on it a while back. Their culture has taken on many Iranian and Sahu elements - including sometimes Iranian names and festivals. However, Slavic gods and supernatural folk creatures remain, although often time local monks try to convince people to edit some sort of Buddhist lesson into them, with varying levels of success. Lay people eat meat and drink alcohol, but monasteries are typically vegetarian and monks abstain from drinking alcohol. One curious feature of their society is that many monks will spend a period of time surviving alone in the forest - this is considered a particularly holy calling, but is unusual in the community-oriented monasticism of the Buddhist south. Those who return from the forest are considered to have unique religious insight. While women are broadly considered inferior to men in the secular sphere, they are often considered spiritually equal, especially nuns.

In terms of government, there are a lot of differences, as might be expected. The Rus aren't themselves feudal. Their government structure is essentially absolute monarchy dominated by the Han/King and enforced by the retainers of the Han. However, they've also been influenced by steppe traditions, and accordingly there's a sense that the king only rules by the consent of his retainers. While there is only very limited bureaucracy, carried out by the monks, retainers are often empowered to sit as judges and rulers in town councils and by doing so the king's authority is maintained. A weak king might see his son passed up for succession, or be outright overthrown. Unlike the Gardaveldi to the north, kings are not seen as gift-givers in Rus society, and indeed are expected to dress with a certain degree of modesty - not overshadowing their retainers despite their greater rank and authority. The monarchy directly owns a significant amount of property - the centralization of the Rus was often a bloody thing indeed, and when rivals were defeated their fortifications and halls were taken from them and garrisoned, allowing the early Rus to take slaves and tribute directly without needing to launch another campaign next year.

Rusichi architecture is very similar to that of OTL. Their religious buildings and palaces eschew a Byzantine sensibility in favor of a mixture of Iranian and local styles. Their stupas are typically tall, thin towers whose domes rise to a tight point. (Similar but distinct from OTL's onion dome.) Important buildings are made of white stone, but mostly brick and wood are the common building materials of the Rusichi.

In short, the various Rus cultures are shifting away from anything recognizable, but maybe would still be familiar to an OTL person from the same time period in some regards. One of the biggest difference is the absence of mass baptisms and conversions. The arrival of Buddhism has been much more subtle. Although it now permeates life to a significant degree, for the average Rusichi there is more continuity between the pagan past and the Buddhist present than an OTL Russian might have experienced when Christianity became the official religion. It may be worth considering Japan, where folk traditions persisted alongside Buddhism - although obviously there are huge differences.
 
Interesting stuff. And we continue to see how in this world "Asia" is considered to extend well west of the Urals. One wonders when, if ever, future writers choose a widely accepted border between "Europe" and "Asia" (a river, perhaps?) and to what extent historians and anthropologists will get into hissy-fights with geographers.

Good to see Russia hasn't given up on it's traditional of holy backwoods hermits in spite of all the divergences. :biggrin:
 
A cultural definition of Europe as the lands of Latin Christendom coalesced in the 8th century, signifying the new cultural condominium created through the confluence of Germanic traditions and Christian-Latin culture, defined partly in contrast with Byzantium and Islam, and limited to northern Iberia, the British Isles, France, Christianised western Germany, the Alpine regions and northern and central Italy.[17] The concept is one of the lasting legacies of the Carolingian Renaissance: "Europa" often figures in the letters of Charlemagne's court scholar, Alcuin.[18]This division—as much cultural as geographical—was used until the Late Middle Ages,

The above taken from the Wikipedia page on Europe. Perhaps Europe is not thought of as a continent, and Christendom contrasts with Pagan-dom, or even Europe equals the Western Med. If the former, would north Africa be thought of as Christian/European?
 
A cultural definition of Europe as the lands of Latin Christendom coalesced in the 8th century, signifying the new cultural condominium created through the confluence of Germanic traditions and Christian-Latin culture, defined partly in contrast with Byzantium and Islam, and limited to northern Iberia, the British Isles, France, Christianised western Germany, the Alpine regions and northern and central Italy.[17] The concept is one of the lasting legacies of the Carolingian Renaissance: "Europa" often figures in the letters of Charlemagne's court scholar, Alcuin.[18]This division—as much cultural as geographical—was used until the Late Middle Ages,

The above taken from the Wikipedia page on Europe. Perhaps Europe is not thought of as a continent, and Christendom contrasts with Pagan-dom, or even Europe equals the Western Med.

I was referring to an earlier quote from an in-universe text that referred to Dharmic Eastern Europe as "near Asia" or "Asia west of the Urals" or some such. If Europe is not a geographic concept, probably Asia is not either, and geographers do the sensible thing, and grasp the great land-mass from Portugal to the Pacific as a unity undivided by speed-bump mountains such as the Urals. Would they call it Eurasia, though? And would they consider Africa a part of it?

If the former, would north Africa be thought of as Christian/European?

Depends on what sort of religion eventually wins out among the Berbers, I guess. If it's too far from standard Christianity, Egypt alone isn't going to be enough to Europe-ize the southern Med.
 
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