Aloysius IV seems like a smart kid. He knows that he won't last long as Emperor if his more charismatic brother-in-law were to rise against him. Even if the Votive War for Constantinople fails, and while it's difficult to see it taking Constantinople it's equally as difficult to imagine it ending with no Frankish gains, he'll still have gained a brownie points with the church which should help him survive.
The Rise of the White Huns
- Thread starter Practical Lobster
- Start date
I really hope this will start the ball rolling for an eventual reunification of Asiana. Maybe it'll be initially under a decentralized entity not unlike the Holy Roman Empire. Either way I'm looking forward for more.
Either he's a bookish kid who ended up becoming a bloodthirsty fanatic or a cynical politician like his father, who adeptly manipulates his circumstances. I, for one, am having fun with the ambiguity.
We'll see. Perhaps in TTL's equivalent of the high middle ages we'll see an ambitious philosopher write "Apo Hypaton" - a treatise on how some clever consul needs to unify the peninsula by being feared rather than loved.
Or perhaps not. I'm uncertain to some degree how all of this will pan out. The latter half of the tenth century has seen a resurgence in Votivist sentiment. The new Eranshahr will, by the year 1000, be a regional power of no little importance. Asiana, rather like Italy, is perilously close to so many mighty states.
One might even notice spheres of influence developing, as Nikaia is forcibly annexed into the Khirichan sphere, Samos leans towards the Franks, and an offhand mention a few pages back of the Khardi siege of Nyssa, capital of the Cappadocian kingdom.
Given how close the Khirichan heartland is to the Frankish hinterland than the Frankish heartland is to the Kirichan frontier, they are really going to be at a disadvantage in this fight. Plus I can see the Pontic peoples, angered by a decade and a half of being under the domination of the small Sahu merchant communities rising up and massacring them once the Khirichan are distracted. I still have my doubts that Constantinople can be liberated, but I think the Khirichan are in for a rough war.
I'm waiting for the sun to set on the Khirichan Empire. When are the Khirichan going to enter a period of decline? Mostly because I'm frankly fond of the hybrid culture of Asiania and I want to see it reunified. If the Italians could be unified in OTL I see no reason why the Asianians couldn't be reunified in this timeline. I make it no secret that I'm biased in favor of the scrappy little states in Anatolia.
Germany, now's your cue! The Khirichan are the Franks' foes, not yours! Refuse to spill your blood in superficially religious tomfoolery!
The Germans have a lot more to worry from a strong Khirichan empire than the Franks do. The Frankish Empire stretching itself thin by occupying the Balkans would probably be good for them.
Cool stuff all around. What's the religious situation like for the Baltic tribes? They're hemmed in on all sides except the sea by Buddhists... which might cause them to adopt Buddhism by osmosis. OTOH, with German settlers and Christianity might one day come support for them from the Franks and Danes...
I like the Khirichan and find the idea of a more developed northern Black Sea polity fascinating. I kind of want them to survive and create their own cultural sphere in the North. At the same time I don't think Poland and Hungary will survive long term as Buddhist areas. In the case of Hungary, the Croats seem like they might be ready to revolt and there must be too many Frankish nobles out to earn some land for themselves. In Poland I think some degree of Christianization in inevitable from osmosis and from conquest. I wonder if we might eventually see a bizarro-Commonwealth where Christians and Buddhists mix equally there.
I also don't think Asia Minor will be Khirichan forever either, though they will make their mark. The Franks are too close and the Buddhists are not a united bloc the same way Islam was OTL, thought perhaps with the Nowhabar that may change slightly.
Russia will be a place to watch. It's avoided a lot of the brutalizations it suffered OTL (you might need to find a new word for "Slave", actually, seeing as it comes from the trade in Slav). IIRC there was a rich, relatively free merchant culture in Kiev before the Mongols came in and wrecked the place.
I like the Khirichan and find the idea of a more developed northern Black Sea polity fascinating. I kind of want them to survive and create their own cultural sphere in the North. At the same time I don't think Poland and Hungary will survive long term as Buddhist areas. In the case of Hungary, the Croats seem like they might be ready to revolt and there must be too many Frankish nobles out to earn some land for themselves. In Poland I think some degree of Christianization in inevitable from osmosis and from conquest. I wonder if we might eventually see a bizarro-Commonwealth where Christians and Buddhists mix equally there.
I also don't think Asia Minor will be Khirichan forever either, though they will make their mark. The Franks are too close and the Buddhists are not a united bloc the same way Islam was OTL, thought perhaps with the Nowhabar that may change slightly.
Russia will be a place to watch. It's avoided a lot of the brutalizations it suffered OTL (you might need to find a new word for "Slave", actually, seeing as it comes from the trade in Slav). IIRC there was a rich, relatively free merchant culture in Kiev before the Mongols came in and wrecked the place.
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I agree with the synopsis above concerning Poland. There's no way that whoever is in charge would be able to completely stifle Christianity, either through Osmosis, or that there wouldn't be at least some toleration when it comes to Christianity, if only to ensure that his realm isn't constantly at war with either the Franks or the Moravians.
I'm going to try (and likely fail to) refrain from commenting on spoilers regarding the massive Votive War post I have planned, but let me do my best to otherwise answer these questions.
The Germans do indeed fear a powerful Khirichan. They'll be major contributors of the Votive War for that reason, and because the "push eastward and settle" mentality is strong with them right now.
The Baltic tribes are still pagan, and still relatively isolated from the broader world.
One of the biggest problems the Franks have is that as much as the Khirichan might be overstretched, this is a massive highly decentralized pan-European Empire which essentially has hereditary "satraps" in the form of Dukes. Centrifugal forces are already conspiring to tear it apart - the question is how long can it last. A victory might kill either side just as quickly as a defeat.
Poland is not tenable in its current incarnation, I agree. However, Hungary has an entrenched Xasar-Avar population who have been Buddhist for several centuries now. It's doing quite well for itself, and traditionally is a spot from which raids are launched rather than a place which is raided.
The Germans do indeed fear a powerful Khirichan. They'll be major contributors of the Votive War for that reason, and because the "push eastward and settle" mentality is strong with them right now.
The Baltic tribes are still pagan, and still relatively isolated from the broader world.
One of the biggest problems the Franks have is that as much as the Khirichan might be overstretched, this is a massive highly decentralized pan-European Empire which essentially has hereditary "satraps" in the form of Dukes. Centrifugal forces are already conspiring to tear it apart - the question is how long can it last. A victory might kill either side just as quickly as a defeat.
Poland is not tenable in its current incarnation, I agree. However, Hungary has an entrenched Xasar-Avar population who have been Buddhist for several centuries now. It's doing quite well for itself, and traditionally is a spot from which raids are launched rather than a place which is raided.
I assume that a lot of the Khirichan's stability is reliant on having a charismatic leader to hold it all together? That means that it'll basically fall apart when the leader doesn't have the same charisma. The leaders of the powerful Satraps would take the opportunity to declare full independence and peoples chafing under that rule will revolt. Not to mention the Christian powers taking advantage of the weakness of the biggest threat in the region.
I personally think the resulting Christian-Buddhist hybrid culture only makes Poland more interesting.
Here's hoping the Prussians manage to keep their native language and culture instead of being rendered extinct by German crusaders. And I'm guessing that the Buddhist Russians would probably take advantage of the downfall of the Khirichan when it happens.
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Ummm.... I think you missed the point--for all the Khirichans' weaknesses, the Franks aren't looking that hot either at the moment...
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What I meant is that the Khirichan will likely fall apart all on it's own. All it takes is the leader not being as charismatic (or even incompetent) to make it collapse. Besides, I don't mind the Franks falling apart either. Space-filling nations aren't as interesting to me as a quilt of smaller states. Either way the status quo as of this point of this timeline won't last.
You're very right that the status quo won't last, but that tends to be a pretty major theme of the story I'm trying to tell, I think. Anyhow, the Khirichan have survived a number of incompetent Khagans who slid largely under the radar between Sebouk Arslan and Shiqar Kulujogul.
I hope it doesn't seem like the Frankish empire exists just for the sake of "space filling." I've tried to make it seem like a diverse country with lots of regional interests.
The Khirichan political system possibly deserves its own post, but in short, any measure of the stability of their state has to take into account more than just the personal qualities of the ruler who runs the show. Even in the most basic tribal polity that's true, but the Khirichan have transcended that pretty seriously by now, taking their cues from the Sahu and Eftal, who in turn were inspired by a variety of Indo-Iranian sources. They're a settled state for most intents and purposes, with cities and a capital and taxes. Their relationships with the other clans and subject polities that make up their regime have evolved to the point of being codified lists of reciprocal obligations rather than just extortion and tradition.
(Which is not to say that their relations, particularly with Europe, don't involve a lot of extortion and plundering. Just that the core of the Khirichan state is strong.)
The Khirichan are undoubtedly overstretched. But I will say this: it's a lot easier to keep the Xasar and Bulgars and Russians all in line when the alternative is an existential threat on the scale of Frankish Europe. On the same note, it's a lot easier to keep Spain, Italy, France, and Germany all in a line when you can remind people of the scary scary specter of Sebouk Arslan or Kuluj Ishbara and all the other threats from the diabolical East.
I hope it doesn't seem like the Frankish empire exists just for the sake of "space filling." I've tried to make it seem like a diverse country with lots of regional interests.
The Khirichan political system possibly deserves its own post, but in short, any measure of the stability of their state has to take into account more than just the personal qualities of the ruler who runs the show. Even in the most basic tribal polity that's true, but the Khirichan have transcended that pretty seriously by now, taking their cues from the Sahu and Eftal, who in turn were inspired by a variety of Indo-Iranian sources. They're a settled state for most intents and purposes, with cities and a capital and taxes. Their relationships with the other clans and subject polities that make up their regime have evolved to the point of being codified lists of reciprocal obligations rather than just extortion and tradition.
(Which is not to say that their relations, particularly with Europe, don't involve a lot of extortion and plundering. Just that the core of the Khirichan state is strong.)
The Khirichan are undoubtedly overstretched. But I will say this: it's a lot easier to keep the Xasar and Bulgars and Russians all in line when the alternative is an existential threat on the scale of Frankish Europe. On the same note, it's a lot easier to keep Spain, Italy, France, and Germany all in a line when you can remind people of the scary scary specter of Sebouk Arslan or Kuluj Ishbara and all the other threats from the diabolical East.
So essentially what you're saying is that when one falls the other will follow soon after? After all what's keeping the peoples under their thumb when the big bad boogieman is gone?
I admit I oversimplified in my description of the Frankish Empire. I just want Europe to stay a quilt of distinctive cultures. I'm sure the fall of the Franks will be interesting to behold. What will they call the reduced Frankish state? Francia or France?
I still think the Khirichan are barbaric brutes that make Buddhism look bad by association. Are the Langobards still around? I want to see the various peoples of the Khirichan empire form their own states. I can see the fringe peoples to the west adopting Christianity in order to get support from the west from the remnants of the Khirichan.
The rulers will probably call it Francia for a while, if the language evolves anything like OTL. I might just start calling it France though, to distinguish from what came before. We'll see.
I don't really see the Khirichan as any more brutal or barbaric than average, and I can definitely think of more vicious groups. The Eftal tore apart much of the Near East and were nearly constantly plundering and the region still bears the scars of their conquests. By contrast the Khirichan have mounted a few major raids.
The Langobards assimilated into the Slavs a century or two ago, to the point they basically don't exist as an independent identity.
Edit: You're of course welcome to pick favorites, don't let me stop you. I just don't really see where the Khirichan hate is coming from. I should mention that the only favorite group or thing I ever had that really stands out in this timeline is the early Heshanid monarchy. Which may be why there's still a (Hellenized) Heshanid monarchy in Egypt.
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I just dislike Khirichan because they're keeping Asiana from reforming. I've made it no secret that that hybrid nation is my favorite nation to feature in this timeline. Aside from Buddhist Poland. I guess I'm letting my personal feelings cloud my judgement. I'm wondering how the Khirichan are still standing when others have fallen. And don't take this as me disliking the timeline itself. It's still one of the best pieces of alternate history I've read on this forum.
Regional developments in each of the OTL "national" areas (France, Germany, Italy, etc) might be worth an update sometime...
Dialects Guestpost
I added people's suggestions to the language map, and tidied up some:
Notes:
-The Berber language is split into dialects
-Aramaic and Frisian are present, as is Avar in hilly and mountainous parts of the Xasar lands
-Reworked the Balkans to reflect the actual mountain ranges and hills there
-I decided the Suevan dialect carried too far south so Luchitano has been added to represent a dialect that probably doesn't have any historical equivalent.
-Breton has been pruned back and a color to represent Angevin, a western langue d'oil mutually intelligible with TTL French, has been added.
-The Gautlandic language has been added.
-"Englisc" has been added to represent the conservative West Country holdouts whose way of speaking hasn't been extensively changed by the Norse occupation.
-An Egyptian Greek dialect, Kuptiki, has been added. Note this doesn't refer to OTL Coptic but comes from the Greek word for Egypt, Kuptos.
Notes:
-The Berber language is split into dialects
-Aramaic and Frisian are present, as is Avar in hilly and mountainous parts of the Xasar lands
-Reworked the Balkans to reflect the actual mountain ranges and hills there
-I decided the Suevan dialect carried too far south so Luchitano has been added to represent a dialect that probably doesn't have any historical equivalent.
-Breton has been pruned back and a color to represent Angevin, a western langue d'oil mutually intelligible with TTL French, has been added.
-The Gautlandic language has been added.
-"Englisc" has been added to represent the conservative West Country holdouts whose way of speaking hasn't been extensively changed by the Norse occupation.
-An Egyptian Greek dialect, Kuptiki, has been added. Note this doesn't refer to OTL Coptic but comes from the Greek word for Egypt, Kuptos.
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Haven`t commented for quite a while due to offline holidays, but great postings of late, too!
I love the Khirichan, the power which stands for - depending on how you view it - a Europe influenced by Buddhism and Asian philosophy, or a Westward extension of "Asia".
I don´t see them as any more violent or uncivilized than the Franks, maybe even less so.
I love the Khirichan, the power which stands for - depending on how you view it - a Europe influenced by Buddhism and Asian philosophy, or a Westward extension of "Asia".
I don´t see them as any more violent or uncivilized than the Franks, maybe even less so.