The Kaiser's Toy Fleet and the Real German Army

Kaiser Wilhelm II never lives with his mother for any extended period of time, he always just visits her. So he never adopts an admiration for fleets and battleships and other silly crafts that float on the water. He spends time with his father and a separate guardian.

Instead he falls in love with rifles; machine guns, artillery, and the formations of Infantry. But he still has megalomania, remember that. All the money that once would have been poured into building ships and submarines is now poured into the army.

What is the outcome of this?

Do we see new technologies?

Do we see new tactics?

Is the German army enlarged?


At this point, Germany only has a small coastal fleet capable of defending key ports. The Kaiser, in an act of sensibility, sells his pacific collections (doesn't matter to who).

Obviously from this point of departure we see improved relations with Great Britain, as Germany is no longer a naval rival. But French and Russian relations cant get any better.

How does Germany favor in the land war with France?

How does Germany favor in the land war with Russia?


The thread is yours.
 

Deleted member 1487

I was going to go for something similar, but this is perfect. The real problem is not just Wilhelm, it is the impression in Germany among the power brokers that colonies and navies are the real deciding factor in international prestige. That attitude would have to change across Germany. The navy was also the place for the middle class to advance, whereas the army was still traditional and nobility focused in the higher ranks. Technologies were looked down on, as were the technical branches like the artillery.

If the Kaiser was strong enough morally to stand up to the German movement toward colonies and an enlarged navy, things would change drastically. Britain would not be nearly as threatened by Germany, but in colonial and economic disputes, Germany would not be or feel strong enough to take a hard line with countries like France. However, with extra money being channeled to the army, it could easily have two extra armies and the smaller armies of OTL like the 7th could have had several more corps. This would mean more active corps instead of reserve units, and probably more corps artillery for the reserves, which they lacked historically. Come 1914, if there is still a war, which I personally think there will be, as the economic elements will still be there and Britain will still be anti-German due to economic competition, though the average citizen would not be nearly as rabidly anti-German without the naval challenges and colonial disputes.

Germany would be much better off during the war, as they would then have more artillery and ammunition on hand at the start, as well as the ability to make more than historically, as all the extra guns would require extra manufacturing ability. Also, the heavy big bertha guns of the 420mm variety, which were still in production at the start of the war, would have more funding and would probably be available for immediate used instead of Germany having to borrow from Austria.

Now, as to the actual conduct of the war, it is hard if not impossible to add any extra troops to Belgium, as it logistics were stretched to the breaking point historically. The extra two armies are going to be headed east, which means that Conrad's plan to chop off Poland may very well go ahead and he won't be left to hang in the wind, getting demolished in Galicia while waiting for German support that never came. Poland falls early in 1914, while the Russians take the offensive against a much better prepared enemy. Austria is much better off and Conrad not seen as a fool as early when his early victories in Galicia pay off because the Germans are poised to support him. Also, the important two extra corps are not sent east during the marne, which means that the retreat to they Aisne line is not necessary (perhaps).


http://www.firstworldwar.com/maps/graphics/maps_03_easternfront1914.jpg

In the east the Russian 1st and 2nd armies attack into Prussia and fight the German 8th and 9th armies, which ends up likely not nearly as successfully as Tannenberg, but still in a German victory. The 10th army goes south before the Russian 9th army is ready, which means they breakthrough the fortress/river line of the Narew. This draws off the Russian 9th army and reinforcements from the Warsaw garrison, and likely the Guards from the Petrograd garrison, sparing the Austrians the collapse of their line in Galicia, at least around Lublin. They keep advancing on Syedlets while the Germans are forced to fight through to there.

The capture of Poland is offset for the Austrians by the loss in East Galicia, where they are forced to retreat. But the losses up north force the Russians to draw off troops to fight the Germans there, where they are outmatched. Eventually the arrival of the Russian 10th army in September and the reinforcements from Galicia allow the Russians to hold the Germans, but it also allows the Austrians to save Galicia and halt the Russians by flank attacks from the freed up 1st army and the newly arrived 2nd army. Still the Russians will be firmly entrenched in Galicia, though without making it much beyond Lemberg if even that far.

Overall things are much better for the Central Powers in 1914, though not war-winningly so. But it does set an important tone for future battles that means the Russians are in trouble. There is probably not much more of a change to the Western front, though there are most certainly more French losses. There are probably no major naval battles like Jutland, but more likely there is a greater focus on the Baltic sea and Russia.

By 1915 there is a much greater change, as the Austrians are not going to be ground to pieces in the Carpathians, but there will be some ugly battles with the Russians. Overall things are better without the loss of so much of Galicia and the fall of Przemysl and the need to transfer to much strength from the Serbian front to Galicia. The Germans probably focus more on the Western front in 1914, as during the Race to the Sea they can bring more strength to bear and won't need to switch any of the new reserve corps east. That mean 6 corps go west instead of 4, which tips the balance even more into Germany's hands during the campaign. Not enough to really affect a total win, but maybe enough to cause a breakthrough to the Somme.

Overall, the additional armies and troops in 1914 mean that Germany is much better prepared for war vis-a-vis their enemies, which then makes them more likely to win in the long run. It also gives them a larger pre-war professional army to maintain the quality of the armed forces during the expansion of divisions. It also means that when the triangular division is created, more corps result from the move, as there are more divisions to reduce in size. Many more professional, experienced troops=greater chance of winning for Germany and more allied casualties.
 
The problem here is that necessity of a battlefleet was proven in the Great War. The Germans triumphed on land but were slowly starved to death by the Allied blockade. This is a similar situation that the Germans - or more correctly the Prussians - found themselves in their war with Denmark in the 1860s.

The rivalry between Britain and Germany basically began in 1871 and nothing is really doing to prevent or dissipate that.

Without the navy the Germans are just going to do a little better in 1914, but they aren't going to win anything more than a negotiated peace.
 
Excellent.

But does Germany have to go through Belgium? Couldn't they not just throw themselves against the French border-forts? I read in A World Undone by by G.J. Meyer that the defenses of Verdun were out-dated and under-manned until some officer (who's name escapes me) took command and refurbished them just in time to halt the German attack. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Deleted member 1487

Excellent.

But does Germany have to go through Belgium? Couldn't they not just throw themselves against the French border-forts? I read in A World Undone by by G.J. Meyer that the defenses of Verdun were out-dated and under-manned until some officer (who's name escapes me) took command and refurbished them just in time to halt the German attack. Correct me if I'm wrong.


That is incorrect. The entire reason that the Germans avoided the border was the forts. They proved extremely hard to knock out with artillery even of the 420mm caliber. The French had modernized the Verdun forts prior to 1914, with a "sandwich" method that put sand over the concrete outdated walls and topped it off with steel reinforced concrete that proved nearly impossible to crack. Even at Verdun 1916 Duaoumont and the other forts took thousands of direct hits without collapsing, though obviously with some damage. It was suicide to move through this region and when the German 6th army tried it in 1914, they were halted with heavy casualties, as they were funneled into the Charmes gap between Nancy and Epinal:

Though these links don't give the complete picture of what happened in August, the Germans were halted and driven back around 08/25/1914, because the French could concentrate their strength on the German flanks and counter attack, which was their plan for the fortified region. Even though the French were outgunned they had the best positions to defend and inflicted heavy losses on the Germans.
http://www.firstworldwar.com/maps/graphics/maps_02_warplans.jpg
http://www.sambre-marne-yser.be/article=5.php3?id_article=62
http://battlefieldseurope.co.uk/ww1fr.aspx


Attacking in the West is going to require a move through Belgium if there is to be any success. Plus any move through just Alsace-Lorraine is going to prevent the Germans from using all their numbers decisively.
 

The Sandman

Banned
I'd argue that the Germans also get a better navy out of this POD. Without Wilhelm II personally interfering, the Germans are likely to concentrate on building a fleet that meets their needs: lots and lots of torpedo boats and destroyers, and any larger ships are built for extreme range and durability.

Also, the Ottomans don't get drawn into the war, or at least not as early; the Germans won't have Goeben and Breslau to offer them if or when the British seize the ships the Ottomans had purchased. They probably still get drawn in eventually, though, because the Germans are likely to prioritize getting the Berlin-to-Basra railway built and then start importing things through there to circumvent the British blockade.
 
The problem here is that necessity of a battlefleet was proven in the Great War. The Germans triumphed on land but were slowly starved to death by the Allied blockade. This is a similar situation that the Germans - or more correctly the Prussians - found themselves in their war with Denmark in the 1860s.

The rivalry between Britain and Germany basically began in 1871 and nothing is really doing to prevent or dissipate that.

Without the navy the Germans are just going to do a little better in 1914, but they aren't going to win anything more than a negotiated peace.
There is nothing Germany could have done against any Allied blockade that includes Great Britain. Great Britain, not needing a large army or forts to defend a land border, always can afford a larger navy than Germany and geographically it couldn't be in a more perfect position to easily block all transatlantic trade to and from Germany. IOW, without some very strong allied navies, any German fleet is pretty much useless against the RN, so why bother building a strong navy in the first place?
 
Again, the problem with the Britainwankers....

Curiously i have a pretty similar concept(but beside doesn't live with her mother, he born perfectly healthy) and besides, Wilhelm II have a very good talent and passion for science but his megalomania overshadow that and with the butterflies he become more interesting in science and techology and for that he demand to research better techology by both force(Army and navy)... and i finished with germany having by ww1(inevitable since the congress of vienna for someone, since Prussia doesn''t annex all of ostrreich for certain people here.....) some proto-semi motorized and armoured(a mark I like to the deutches) and better Aircraft and a a proto-Aircraft carrier.... but that is another history(who have my pantented and registered,xd)

again with the fleet, the problen too was than the all-migthy RN was start to ailing by the masive empire(for that the Entente Cordiale and the Anglo-Japanesse alliance) and the maritime defense of thaht, and antagonist was unavoible again by the economic competition(in some of my Economics History that is a very hot topic) but again if wilhelm II invest in innovativinesss... a close or marginal CP victory is possible
 
A fleet based on torpedo boats and destroyers can do nothing except convince the RN not to start shelling the German coast, which German mine fields and coastal artillery had already convinced them would be an unwise idea.

Meanwhile, this also frees up British resources and, far worse, armor plating and artillery, which might mean tanks or massed armored cars being deployed much earlier. It's one of the wonders of the world that the delaying effort outside Antwerp made by a mere two British brigades with armored cars in 1914 didn't get serious attention sooner.


Also the British managed to double the six available divisions to twelve in short order even with the naval race. Now another two or three divisions arriving in summer 1914 is quite plausible and not only is one division on the defensive worth several on the attack but British standards of marksmanship make this an extremely bad result for the Germans.

OTL in 1914 German units facing the BEF swore that the British were using massed machine guns at every turn, such was the accuracy of British troops with rifles.
 
The naval build-up has an interesting side effect.

There´s practically no german civil service. I actually couldn´t say at the moment if the civil servants performing Reich (federal) functions weren´t just on loan from the member states.

There wasn´t de jure a german army.

There´s a rising, patriotic middle class trying to elevate it´s position. The army positions are reserved quite artificially for the aristocracies, and the reserve army commissions are just not the same thing.

So the Kriegsmarine is the only "german" service available.
 
It's one of the wonders of the world that the delaying effort outside Antwerp made by a mere two British brigades with armored cars in 1914 didn't get serious attention sooner.

Never heard of this one, does the engagement have a name?

Sounds like a wonderful POD campsite.
 
Excellent.

But does Germany have to go through Belgium? Couldn't they not just throw themselves against the French border-forts? I read in A World Undone by by G.J. Meyer that the defenses of Verdun were out-dated and under-manned until some officer (who's name escapes me) took command and refurbished them just in time to halt the German attack. Correct me if I'm wrong.

NO.

The whole point of the envelopment was to circumvent the French border fortifications while allowing the French to bleed themselves pushing against the German frontier. Follow this course of action means that the bulk of the German army collides head on with Plan XVII, with interesting results.

Now, something along these lines actually happened IOTL. The Germans repulsed the French attack into Alsace-Lorraine. Moltke followed this up by ordering an attack on the French fortresses surrounding Nancy. The 6th and 7th armies attacked towards Épinal, but were turned back with heavy losses in the Battle of the Grande Couronne.

Meanwhile, this also frees up British resources and, far worse, armor plating and artillery, which might mean tanks or massed armored cars being deployed much earlier. It's one of the wonders of the world that the delaying effort outside Antwerp made by a mere two British brigades with armored cars in 1914 didn't get serious attention sooner.

To be fair, it was a chaotic time, especially for the Entente. A lot of stuff could easily have gotten lost in the fog of war.

The big question, though, is if the British actually do invest in a larger field army. Sure, the latent potential will be there, but will they see the perceived need or have the will to use it? No naval arms race means that some of the tension, at least, between Great Britain and Germany is lessened. Will the need to put boots on the continent enter the minds of the British before war breaks out?
 
There is nothing Germany could have done against any Allied blockade that includes Great Britain. Great Britain, not needing a large army or forts to defend a land border, always can afford a larger navy than Germany and geographically it couldn't be in a more perfect position to easily block all transatlantic trade to and from Germany. IOW, without some very strong allied navies, any German fleet is pretty much useless against the RN, so why bother building a strong navy in the first place?

Until about 1905 the Germans need a strong battlefleet to offset any potential unification of the French and Russian fleets. This is as long as there are outstanding differences between the Frano-Russian Alliance and Britain. The destruction of the Russian fleet at Tsushima effectively removed the Dual Entente's ability to threaten Britain, while Germany's threat remained.

A strong battlefleet is needed to negate the one major threat of use of force that Britain has - its navy. The Royal Navy was another diplomatic arm that the British could use to muscle their influence about, the Germans sought to build a force that could 'even the playing field' with the British. All that is needed is a force that can be deployed directly in the North Sea. Torpedo boats and destroyers aren't going to cut it, particularly when the British adopt the 'blockade at a distance'.
 

Riain

Banned
The fleet could have proved very useful if the fortunes of war had changed Germany's naval geography, giving an outlet to the Channel or Atlantic or something.
 
A strong battlefleet is needed to negate the one major threat of use of force that Britain has - its navy. The Royal Navy was another diplomatic arm that the British could use to muscle their influence about, the Germans sought to build a force that could 'even the playing field' with the British. All that is needed is a force that can be deployed directly in the North Sea. Torpedo boats and destroyers aren't going to cut it, particularly when the British adopt the 'blockade at a distance'.

So to counter Britain, Germany had to build a navy which later became the major point that Germany had to counter Britain at all...

It's true: the blockade proved that a strong navy is needed. However, only Britain is able to enforce such a blockade on the Germans. With Britain neutral or allied to Germany, there's no blockade and no need for a navy that does more than securing shipping lines to the colonies and coastal defence.

Now I'm well aware that the navy wasn't the sole reason for British-German tensions. Economic reasons were important as well - yet economically, the US were even more threatening to Britain then Germany.
 
The reason why Britain declared war on Germany was not that the HSF might leave port an seek battle with the GF (for the assured destruction of the former), but the threat that the German Army soon might dominate the European continent from Brest/Bretagne to Brest-Litovsk.

I cannot see Britain staying neutral when a much bigger German Army invades neighbouring Europe, even if the German Navy only has skiffs.
 
Double Intervention

At this point, Germany only has a small coastal fleet capable of defending key ports. The Kaiser, in an act of sensibility, sells his pacific collections (doesn't matter to who).

When would you think that would happen ? If it was before 1895, then maybe Germany doesn't take part in the Triple Intervention. In which case, we could see a strengthening of the pro-German faction in Japan - perhaps leading to German-Japanese Alliance.

That could have interesting implications. A later Russo-Japanese war, for example, as Russia would be more cautious about attacking Japan. In fact the *Russo-Japanese War could be the trigger for an earlier *WWI, with Germany following a Russia-first strategy in order to assist its Japanese Ally.

Cheers,
Nigel.
 
So to counter Britain, Germany had to build a navy which later became the major point that Germany had to counter Britain at all...

The British Admiralty typical manufactured 'naval scares' during the late 1800s with Russia and France in order to keep or raise their portion of the military budget. The arms race with Germany was just a continuation.
 

Deleted member 1487

How realistic does this sound for a "Real German Army"

Each reserve corps is upgraded with 4 batteries of 4 guns of 150mm howitzers thanks to the extra money available.
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/150mm_sfh_02_walkaround.htm
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/sFH13.htm
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/sFH13_kurz.htm

The mobile Big Berthas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bertha_%28howitzer%29
are ready in numbers before the war, thanks to extra money being available for the expansion of the artillery arm before the war...I'm thinking about 12 or so, plus perhaps a battery of two guns per army.

Also, there will be 14 cavalry divisions in 1914 instead of 12.
There will be 10 armies instead of 8, but with the following changes:
3rd army gets an extra reserve division
8th army has 3 active divisions and 1 reserve, along with 2 cavalry divisions
9th army has 3 active divisions and 1 reserve, along with 2 cavalry divisions
10 army has 2 active divisions and 2 reserve, along with 1 cavalry division and 3 landwehr brigades
Woyrsch corps is attached to the Austro-Hungarian army, but with an extra division or two of Landwehr and corps artillery, perhaps 2 regiments of heavy howitzers instead of the usual 1

This means the German army has 5 additional active corps and 3.5 more reserve corps with two additional cavalry divisions and perhaps 1-2 more landwehr divisions. Also there is a lot more artillery and ammunition for it, and more pioneer, siege trains, and army level assets to flesh out the two extra armies.

What kind of corresponding reduction in navy ships are we looking at? Is this feasible? I believe I have read in the past (cannot remember where though) that this would be possible without the last two naval laws, 1908 and 1912.

Edit: Forgot to mention that there might also be a Vosges groups of Jäger regiments with mortars and mountain guns produced by Skoda, much as the French had the Chausser-a-Pied in the Vosges. This group would be attached to the 7th army and probably have about 3 regiments, but with corps level artillery attached, but with a mortar regiment/mountain howtizer regiment.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top