The Eternal Flame Dies Out: Rome Loses The Siege of Veii

I can see earlier Diadochs, but in OTL, Rome ended conquering all of them, but with Rome out of the picture ITTL, we must see whats happening at the other side of the Adriatic sea.
I'll be working my way around to the Italian peninsula and Sicily soon enough. I honestly expected to be already back there by now but I got carried away after I learned about Jason of Pherae. :eek:

Whoa, didn't expect that! One of your best updates I think. Looking forward to the fallout today (or whenever you finish it)! :cool:
Thanks! I felt Jason's campaign was becoming too predictable and I did not want it to just turn out the same was as OTL Alexander's conquests (well, actually considerably easier up to the Battle of Persepolis). So I figured I had to shake things up a bit with something totally unexpected.
 
Darius III would flee from the battlefield. Artaxerxes III chose to fight and kill his adversary. Tiribazos has a chance to to salvage something of the situation if he manages to make deal with Autophradates and Datames and send them into the opposite parts of Empire. He can probably regain Mesopotamia and Syria but I doubt if he is able to subjugate Anatolia. Even if he manages to make deal with Autophradates and Datames there is still Mauzolos. In Greece and Macedonia again there is free for all - but I suspect that one or the other Philippos soon unifies Macedon and Thessalian realms and conquer the rest of Greece. Athens are not what they used to be, Thebes also lost plenty of their resources, Korinthos could have get some power and weight if it didn't betray its Argive allies, Sparta is no more and Achaian League is new and untested quality. Somehow it reminds me situation in OTL Rome after Caesar's death - a pack of talented individuals fought in his name and the fittest one prevailed. There is a chance for Greek unification given that panhellenism becomes more and more popular. Besides there was hinted a transition from democrats to kings.
 
Wait, wasn't Artaxerxes II over eighty years old at this time? Why would he be commanding at such an advanced age?
 
The next Artaxerxes. III. Ochus. Kinslayer.
Ah this guy:

artaxerxes_iii_of_persia_by_saganmaineiac-d73ifz1.jpg
 
So I realized after zipping through Jason's story, I have been confused with/forgotten some of the characters that made an appearance. I figured if I had done so, the certainly you folks know what/where/who all the characters are, so I took it upon me to finally organize everything together into 2 charts. I also used that time to flesh out Jason's staff and fill in all the important positions given shit's about to go down now that Jason's dead.

The two charts are a family tree of Jason's family, and a chart of all the important figure in the post-Jason story (well, not anyone from Italy).
JHaYSpb.png

bTa4wNA.png
 
Darius III would flee from the battlefield. Artaxerxes III chose to fight and kill his adversary. Tiribazos has a chance to to salvage something of the situation if he manages to make deal with Autophradates and Datames and send them into the opposite parts of Empire. He can probably regain Mesopotamia and Syria but I doubt if he is able to subjugate Anatolia. Even if he manages to make deal with Autophradates and Datames there is still Mauzolos. In Greece and Macedonia again there is free for all - but I suspect that one or the other Philippos soon unifies Macedon and Thessalian realms and conquer the rest of Greece. Athens are not what they used to be, Thebes also lost plenty of their resources, Korinthos could have get some power and weight if it didn't betray its Argive allies, Sparta is no more and Achaian League is new and untested quality. Somehow it reminds me situation in OTL Rome after Caesar's death - a pack of talented individuals fought in his name and the fittest one prevailed. There is a chance for Greek unification given that panhellenism becomes more and more popular. Besides there was hinted a transition from democrats to kings.
All are astute observations. Autophradates would make a good ally of Tiribazos if he can escape Nora (well, more on what was going on there in a bit :cool: ), this is true. He has a lot of options now, that's for sure. It really does remain to be seen what will go down in Greece-the most recent revolt only ended less than a year ago, and Jason's successors don't have as direct control over it as Alexander and his successors had. So interesting things could go down there.

I like the analogy with Caesar (I guess a similar analogy can be made with Alexander). It definitely rings true here.
I what the Greeks to carry out Jason will and take over everything else.
This is what Jason would have hoped for, I'm sure. ;)
 
So I realized after zipping through Jason's story, I have been confused with/forgotten some of the characters that made an appearance. I figured if I had done so, the certainly you folks know what/where/who all the characters are, so I took it upon me to finally organize everything together into 2 charts. I also used that time to flesh out Jason's staff and fill in all the important positions given shit's about to go down now that Jason's dead.

The two charts are a family tree of Jason's family, and a chart of all the important figure in the post-Jason story (well, not anyone from Italy).

Very useful post; I've liked how you've bolded names thus far, but this helps bring everything together nice and cleanly.
 
As mentioned, I'm using this interlude as a point to get everything organized. So here is a map of Greece at the death of Jason, before all hell breaks loose. Note that Athens regained Chios, having been gifted it when it was by Mentor of Rhodes' fleet in the Persian invasion. Also the two Aitolian League cities are Thermos and Naupaktos.

umpZLkJ.jpg
 
Okay, final map before the update comes out tomorrow:
EDIT: Ignore the purple in Palestine. That was a screw up.
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Chapter IV: Look East For Your Freedom
Part XI: Aftermath

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[FONT=&quot]The Hellenic army faced a great conundrum in the aftermath of their victory. The major question facing them at the moment was what to do now. The had conquered lands from Ionia to Susiana, and had just defeated the army of the Achaemenid Great King and had accomplished all they had hoped for and then some. Yet their basileus was dead and a new Persian army from Baktria was likely to amass and set out to take them on as soon as word spread there. Tiribazosthreatened to rewind the clock and undo everything the Hellenes had accomplished in the past year and a half. It was a truly awkward situation to be in.
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[FONT=&quot]But what to do about it? Kleitos Redbeard, having been chiliarchos under Jason, tried to assert his authority and wished to withdrawal to Babylon and deal with events from there. Few of Jason’s former bodyguard or other staff were content to take orders from him, and regardless, there was a significant portion of them; Olympiodoros chief among them; that advocated for taking the fight further east. The argument went that their best chance of victory lie with maintaining the initiative. As sound as this argument may have been, it was unpractical for a host of reasons, not least because it was readily apparent to everyone that the leaders of the army would not come together to allow anyone to have the supreme authority to lead it. Still others; mainly the Makedonians; pointed out that only Philippos Argead, still in Babylon, had the authority to make a decision.
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[FONT=&quot]They convened a council in the camp among them to settle these matters, hoping to reach at least some short term consensus so they could finally move out. The council was not as divisive and confrontational as expected-the egos and personal ambition of Jason’s former staff were overshadowed by the threat posted just over the horizon from Tiribazos in the east. A compromise drawn up by the politically savvy chief secretary Attalos of Amphipolis was reached, in order to mollify the Makedonians and Thessalians; both Philippos Argead and Artemisia’s infant son would be proclaimed joint kings. This was only a temporary measure, as the Thessalians knew very well that as an adult Philippos could actually exercise and solidify his power while Jason II would obviously be incapable of doing so and likely never be allowed to grow old enough to have that opportunity. Furthermore, aside from confirming all the current satraps in their positions and appointing Demetrios to transfer the Susa treasury to Babylon, they did not settle anything regarding disputes over who would receive what satrapy. All that mattered was that some measure was in place long enough for them to deal with Tiribazos.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There were three more things they did do however, one of which would have profound effects later on. The first was sending a peace offer to Tiribazos, which would recognize all of Jason’s conquests up to Susiana. This was hardly expected to be accepted-indeed, Tiribazos would reply with an even more absurd response, demanding they hand over all their conquests except for Ionia-but it was a nice propaganda measure to say they had tried to negotiate but had been rebuffed.
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[FONT=&quot]The second measure they enacted was sending orders to Memnon of Rhodes in Babylon-note how they sent it to Memnon and not Philippos- to levy Babylonian troops and begin drilling them in order to bolster the numbers of their army to prepare for Tiribazos. They could hardly have expected them to be effective, being newly raised levies, but they were at least on par quality wise with Persian infantry. That they ordered them to be raised at all however shows the precarious position they believed themselves to be in. Under normal circumstances, they would have balked at allowing sizable numbers of easterners to serve as equals in their army; but the Babylonians had been some of the most enthusiastic supporters of the new regime, and the army needed more manpower. Recognizing that forces in Hellas would likely be tied down dealing with revolts, it made the most sense in the circumstances. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
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[FONT=&quot]Finally, the third measure was not an order by the council but a secret order by Kleitos sent with the messengers to Memnon, to order him to assassinate Philippos Argead. Kleitos wanted him out of the way and knew that once he was back in Babylon, removing him from the picture would be extremely difficult. It should be noted that this is highly speculative; we cannot be sure that Philippos did not indeed die of a serious illness. Babylon surely was not the healthiest place to be, and it’s not an unheard of occurrence, particularly in the ancient world. But the timing is too convenient to ignore. It is my opinion that Memnon, having received the order to assassinate Philippos (and no doubt seeing the benefit removing him from the picture may bring him in the future), gave him a slow acting poison in order to make it look like his death was an unfortunate result of a serious illness. Regardless, what is important is that Philippos was dead by the time the army returned to Babylon, and Kleitos had maneuvered himself into the position of regent for Jason II. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
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[FONT=&quot]Before they departed, the council faced a near mutiny by the foot soldiers, who had demanded they march on Persepolis first, to allow them to sack it in revenge for Jason’s death. The phalangarch Meleagros, an opportunist if there ever was one, became their most vocal advocate, threatening to lead the foot soldiers on his own to Persepolis. Disaster was averted by hefty bribes from the gold and silver already at the council’s disposal, and promises of more money later on should they agree to return to Babylon immediately. Still, this was a worrying development, and the council no doubt kept an eye on Meleagros from this point forward, recognizing him as a threat to all of their ambitions. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]They arrived in Babylon by mid-October, and it would not be long after that when Tiribazos’ response arrived. War was now certain, and so despite protests over Philippos’ death, many were eager to not cause confrontation and division until after Tiribazos was dealt with. By now word of Jason and Artaxerxes’ deaths would have spread all across the empire, and nowhere would it have a more explosive effect early on than in Hellas. [/FONT]
 
Before they departed, the council faced a near mutiny by the foot soldiers, who had demanded they march on Persepolis first, to allow them to sack it in revenge for Jason’s death. The phalangarch Meleagros...[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
You'd better be specific about ethnic identities every time when you speak about some group of warriors.
I am sure now the soldiers' identities (meaning "us and them") are not "us foot soldiers", 'us missile troops", "us the guys with silver shields a sword and three javelins"; but "us Macedonians" or "us Greeks" or "us Thessallians" etc.
 
You'd better be specific about ethnic identities every time when you speak about some group of warriors.
I am sure now the soldiers' identities (meaning "us and them") are not "us foot soldiers", 'us missile troops", "us the guys with silver shields a sword and three javelins"; but "us Macedonians" or "us Greeks" or "us Thessallians" etc.
Basically the Thessalian and Makedonian phalanx. There will be ripples between them that will become apparent (and with the League of Delphi soldiers and the Thracians in the army) but this is one thing they agree on. There is also (as there was in Alexander's army at his death) an "us vs. them" mechanic going on between the cavalry and the infantry (the cavalry representing more the noble and privileged class and the infantry being a more representative body of the average guy who couldn't afford a horse or the fancy armor). The council here is obviously most representative of the cavalry given their status.

This was the dynamic at play also OTL when the foot soldiers practically mutinied following the Babylon conference. I'll try to be more specific as this develops however (since ethnic identities will play a role as this develops).
 
Basically the Thessalian and Makedonian phalanx. There will be ripples between them that will become apparent (and with the League of Delphi soldiers and the Thracians in the army) but this is one thing they agree on. There is also (as there was in Alexander's army at his death) an "us vs. them" mechanic going on between the cavalry and the infantry (the cavalry representing more the noble and privileged class and the infantry being a more representative body of the average guy who couldn't afford a horse or the fancy armor). The council here is obviously most representative of the cavalry given their status.

This was the dynamic at play also OTL when the foot soldiers practically mutinied following the Babylon conference. I'll try to be more specific as this develops however (since ethnic identities will play a role as this develops).
There is a HUGE difference between the army of Alexander the Great after his death and the army of Jason after his death.
Alexander's army had a long history of corporate identity for two generations as it was created by Alexander's father and it went through an epic march deep in Asia till India surrounded by hostile peoples. Jason army was a mechanical gathering of different ethnicities which did not have time to develop a corporate spirit.
And you should realize that when we speak about this famous conflict 'foot soldiers vs. cavalry' after Alexander's death we speak about conflict "Macedonian foot soldiers vs. Macedonian cavalry". There were other different ethnicities among foot soldiers and cavalry but they were a passive element, they joined corresponding sides of this conflict following the strong Macedonian lead.
Alexander tried to change it but in spite of all his efforts it was MACEDONIAN army. The core, the flower, the crack troops were of Macedonian origin. They, the Macedonians decided the fate of the empire, that was their empire, they deserved it and everybody knew it. Hm, and they were best fighters in the world, you know that helps to convince those who are not sure who are in charge here.

Correct me if I am wrong but in Jason's army we have ethnic situation roughly like this:
30% of the army are Thessalians
30% are the Macedonians
30% are the Greeks of different origin
10% are other Barbarian nationalities like Thracians etc.

So, who is the leader among each ethnic group? Or the leaders?
But do not tell me that the Greeks like Macedonians whom they consider semi-barbarians, I won't buy it. And the Macedonians consider the Greeks to be haughty snobs.
And Thessalians are the true Greeks who are not able to identify themselves with all of Greece.
Speaking of the Greeks in the army I consider them to be the least united and organized part of the army. I guess their loyalties would be divided between Macedonian and Thessalian parts of the army as more cohesive ethnic groups. Or if the Greeks see that there will be a great Macedonian/Thessalian internal fight - the Greeks say "burn in hell' and go home looting their way through rich eastern cities :D
 
There is a HUGE difference between the army of Alexander the Great after his death and the army of Jason after his death.
Alexander's army had a long history of corporate identity for two generations as it was created by Alexander's father and it went through an epic march deep in Asia till India surrounded by hostile peoples. Jason army was a mechanical gathering of different ethnicities which did not have time to develop a corporate spirit.
And you should realize that when we speak about this famous conflict 'foot soldiers vs. cavalry' after Alexander's death we speak about conflict "Macedonian foot soldiers vs. Macedonian cavalry". There were other different ethnicities among foot soldiers and cavalry but they were a passive element, they joined corresponding sides of this conflict following the strong Macedonian lead.
Alexander tried to change it but in spite of all his efforts it was MACEDONIAN army. The core, the flower, the crack troops were of Macedonian origin. They, the Macedonians decided the fate of the empire, that was their empire, they deserved it and everybody knew it. Hm, and they were best fighters in the world, you know that helps to convince those who are not sure who are in charge here.

Correct me if I am wrong but in Jason's army we have ethnic situation roughly like this:
30% of the army are Thessalians
30% are the Macedonians
30% are the Greeks of different origin
10% are other Barbarian nationalities like Thracians etc.

So, who is the leader among each ethnic group? Or the leaders?
But do not tell me that the Greeks like Macedonians whom they consider semi-barbarians, I won't buy it. And the Macedonians consider the Greeks to be haughty snobs.
And Thessalians are the true Greeks who are not able to identify themselves with all of Greece.
Speaking of the Greeks in the army I consider them to be the least united and organized part of the army. I guess their loyalties would be divided between Macedonian and Thessalian parts of the army as more cohesive ethnic groups. Or if the Greeks see that there will be a great Macedonian/Thessalian internal fight - the Greeks say "burn in hell' and go home looting their way through rich eastern cities :D
I know and I agree with all this. The chinks in the chain of the army will become apparent as things move forward. I already hinted at this at least with the commanders of divisions that will arise between Makedonians and Thessalians. Events in Greece will make it extremely interesting for how the Thracians and Delphi league greeks react. Of course the mercenaries in the army don't really care much who they are fighting for as long as they pay well. There's also the fleet to consider, which is heavily supplemented by Athenian contingents (which is what made Athen's neutrality in the revolt earlier so crucial), and as we will see shortly, Athens was simply being an idle observer this whole time.

At the moment at least, they are loosely united by the threat of Tiribazos to undo what they worked so hard for. That unity is being strained immensely by the politicking going on (i.e. Killing Philip). I should mention also Andronikos and Philip (Antigonus' father, not king Philip) are not on the best of terms either. Believe me, this conflict is going to be a mess, we just haven't gotten there yet.
 
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