The City of Water:A Venetian TL (Discontinued: See V2 in Industrial Progress: A Story Of Venetian..)

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As with OTL, Ragusa has little to no natural defenses or hinterlands. It survives with diplomacy and it is very good at it. A conflict with Ragusa ITTL would mean an uncertain war with Hungary and whoever else Ragusa brings in.

Ok, that would mean... a more stable Republic of Ragusa? :p
 
If Venice doesn't have Northern Italy, it's not going to be a great power by 1600.

We gave to agree to disagree :p
A Venice master of the Padan plain would be no more Venice. Would be a successor state.
A Venice in perpetual alliance with Milan would have all the advantages of access to the resources of Northern Italy (and beyond) and still be Venice.
I'll go one better on you: give the Visconti the hereditary dogal title, but keep the existing structure of the government of the Serenissima, with all of its checks and balances. The doge was not an absolute monarch, was he?
 
Where's the wealth and population base to be a great power? Holland, with access to much more prosperous markets than the Eastern Mediterranean, and a larger population base, had this problem.

Faeelin is correct, a nation needs a population base and sufficient land to be powerful. But in the context of this TL, I like to point out that the appeal of Venice to me has never been power and it's not my intention to "paint the map" so to speak.

Ok, that would mean... a more stable Republic of Ragusa? :p

It would mean.. Stay tuned :p
 
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There's a limit to the merchant marine for a city of 120,000 at best.

Fine but there are still the population of what remains of the Stato da Tera and the one of the growing Stato da Mar... For the late middle ages, a more than enough manpower.
 
Fine but there are still the population of what remains of the Stato da Tera and the one of the growing Stato da Mar... For the late middle ages, a more than enough manpower.

It's no question that commercial empires require less manpower, but even commercial empires have to have workers, soldiers and so on. The limitations of manpower on a sea power is less, the exact nature is up for debate. Nonetheless, more population is generally better in the POV of states.
 
Where's the wealth and population base to be a great power? Holland, with access to much more prosperous markets than the Eastern Mediterranean, and a larger population base, had this problem.

The wealth is coming from trade and colonial enterprises, same as it was for the traditional history of Venice. The population base - as far as it is needed for her maritime enterprise and the manning of the fleet will come from Istria, Dalmatia, Crete, Cyprus as it traditionally happened. I can see Venice fully integrating a moderate hinterland and also that will be very, very difficult. Venice citizens were a separate breed and even the lure of the empire or the necessities of manpower changed this approach ever. Moderate numbers of individuals and families can - and did - trickle into Venice and over the generations were accepted as Venetians. In time of need the Republic opened the door to the patrician class - and the eligibility to the Grand Council - to a limited amount of individuals against the payment of huge sums. I cannot see (and IOTL it was never ever proposed, even in jest) the Grand Council granting full citizenship to the inhabitants of Padua, Verona or Vicenza, much less the people living in the Stato de Mar.

To answer your questions, the parallel between the United Provinces and Venice is a good one. Holland had a golden century, but failed to become a major power (not for lack of trying but because the manpower was simply not there). Still the Netherlands are still there, and quite prosperous. If the union between England and the United Provinces had lasted, the Dutch would most likely be richer, but my contention is that they would be still Dutch, they would not have become English (and if England had tried a forceful assimilation policy they would have gone their way, or at least tried hard). Exchange England with Milan and Holland with Venice, and it will work in a similar way. Venice will not become a superpower (which is a chancy proposition to say the least) but will remain a vibrant and rich polity. It will not - IMHO - be ever reduced to the parlous state of OTL Venice in the 18th century (being mistress of a very large swath of Northern Italy did not result in substantial benefits for the Serenissima, did it?). There is no possibility of testing my assumptions, but it is not an unreasonable one. The decline of OTL Venice is a matter of record however.
 
The Queendom of Arborea

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Queen Regent Eleanor of Arborea

The Kingdom of Arborea has fallen upon hard times as it is wrecked by deadly pestilence, the very pestilence that claimed the life of the most magnificent Queen Regent Eleanor. Known as the giudicessa (judge) Queen Regent Eleanor is remembered for expelling the Aragonese invaders and implementing the Carta de Logu; a system of fair and just laws with unusual equality between the sexes. The matter of succession is problematic, the original heir Fredrick, died in the war with Aragon, the next in line to the throne Marianus V, her second son, dies of the plague days after Eleanor. The only remaining member of the royal family is the ten year old bastard princess Aurore, while her claim is precarious she is accepted by the nobles as the only remaining legitimate heiress ,easy to manipulate, and preferable to civil war . Located between the mainland and Sicilian fiefs the island of Sardinia/Kingdom of Arborea is of great value to the crown of Aragon and Sicily both as a matter of security as well as trade for its bountiful mines . Observing the trend of Genoese decline and weakened by the plague the de-facto ruling nobles of Arborea begin to look elsewhere for protection against Aragon. The ideal ally is the kingdom of Naples, but king Ladislaus has failed to produce any legitimate heirs to wed and so the search continues. [1]



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[1] Genoese decline is much more severe than OTL. While Arborea's alliance with Genoa in OTL helped it fend off Aragonese incursions for twenty years the severe decline of Genoa convinces the locals to seek help elsewhere. In regards to Aurore, unfortunately there isn't much direct evidence of Eleanor's family, only the offhanded mention that two of her sons died in some Pisan achieves with everything else being folklore. It is literally about a few lines of writing parchment on her, very sparse information-wise.
 
The Visconti of Milan inherited the claim to the Judicate of Gallura (north-eastern corner of the island) from the branch of the family in Pisa who became extinct. Gian Galeazzo might decide to try and revive the claim, and IIRC there is a kind of civil war brewing up in Aragon about the succession in 1409. Holding both Pisa and Genoa there would be a chance to success.

The bad news if the kingship of Sardinia and Corsica invented out of the blue by Boniface VIII in 1297 and awarded to the Aragonese (as an inducement to stay out of Naples).
 
The bad news if the kingship of Sardinia and Corsica invented out of the blue by Boniface VIII in 1297 and awarded to the Aragonese (as an inducement to stay out of Naples).

It's unlikely for Milan given the current preoccupation with matters of war but nothing stops nobles from using century old claims later.


I would really like to see a surviving Arborea leaded Sardinia... It is asking too much?

I would too, I love how progressive they were. But the difficulties of Arborea are many, plague which means that it must rely on foreign help which will dominate it for the immediate future. It's constantly raided by Muslim pirates draining wealth and manpower and it's a small island with a lot of resources by the powerful kingdom of Aragon.
 
Divergent interests

1405 Spring:

For all the treasure spent the Venetian army was not sufficient for the current conflict against Milan, numbering at 9,000 soldiers and another 12,000 followers it was easily dwarfed by the Milanese forces in the Po Valley. Defaulting to tradition a mix of mercenaries and draftees are used to bolster the force to 24,000 soldiers. Dwarfed in size by the Milanese forces numbering 34,000 the Venetian army focuses on relieving the besieged city of Padua and waiting for the Neapolitan and Papal forces from the south.

Meanwhile in the region of Florence, the Milanese army besieging Florence leaves a small detachment to continue the siege while the main army marches south to confront the forces of the Papal States and Naples.

Having been at near constant war for eighteen years, the duchy of Milan has suffered surprisingly little as it is spared of looting due to the offensive nature of the war and with the majority of the taxes extracted from arrests and purges of nobles, political rivals, and that of conquered lands. Gian Galeazzo Visconti has managed to sideline, blackmail, and arrest the majority of political opponents within the duchy of Milan and now continues his work in his conquered territories. Being a learned man, Visconti knows that he must not just install loyal lords in place of the political opponents least they revolt but rather introduce a new administration entirely, and thus the emergence of the first modern bureaucracy is slowing taking place in Milan. Secretly, Visconti makes plans to subjugate and dispose of the various lords and mercenary captains within his army when the fighting ends, after which he shall be absolute within his kingdom. In the meantime, he writes instructions to recruit more mercenaries.

The plains of Antonia nominally controlled by the Timurids witnesses the last withdrawal of Timurid authority as wars flare up between the Timurid successor states. What remains on the plains of Antonia are numerous independent Beyliks.

1405 Summer:

Several skirmishes between the forces of Milan and that of Venice reveal the true effectiveness of the Venetian forces; that training is only a substitute for experience. The discipline of the professional army was sufficient to prevent routs but several losses against the Milanese have Padua isolated and cut off from the Venetian forces. The siege of Padua continues.

In Florence, the much larger combined forces of the Holy League manage to deal a staggering blow to the Milanese forces. The siege of Florence is lifted and the Papal-Neapolitan armies are greeted with much enthusiasm. Such enthusiasm is short lived as Neapolitan commanders carry out the orders of sealed letters written by Ladislaus. Only to be open after entering Florence, the letters contained orders to eliminate all political leaders. With purpose and speed the various grand patrons and nobles of the city are hanged and their property confiscated, by the time the papal forces reacted to the purge the task was already finished. While Pope Innocent VII who has no love for the Florentines, has even less for the prospect of a Neapolitan Florence and prefers the communes of Florence to the domination of Naples. The armies in Florence do not come to open blows and their advance stops at the foot of the Appennino Mountains. Sensing the precarious balance of the conflict, both Pope Innocent VII and Ladislaus of Naples begin to write and scheme.

1405 End of Summer:

A courier arrives in Venice with dreadful news; Ladislaus has made peace with Milan upon recognition of his gains, everything south of the Appennino Mountains while Milan retains the Po Valley. For Visconti this buys him time to deal with matters closer to home, eliminates the immediate threat, after which he can deal with Ladislaus. Furthermore, fearful of Neapolitan intentions the Papal States have also sued for a white peace and withdrew. Venice is now on her own.
 
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Poor venice, how will it get out of this predictment? The city itself is safe, but its mainland lands…

Go byzzies! And go karaman even though you werent mentioned :p

What sources do you use for this TL?
 
What sources do you use for this TL?

Factually:

Ugh, about a few dozen books. I mostly skim through them to get at the parts I want, for example I just went through 6 books on Catalonia for the next chapter, two of them turned out to be the wrong period. I don't finish books, no point reading filler material. Encyclopedia Britannica for some of the minor stuff as I intend to keep the scale of this project small. The main thing is, there isn't exactly a history textbook going into details of what happened in 14xx, I have to piece together bits and pieces from so many different sources on their subject.

Conceptually:

I read historic-social,economic, and military articles to get an understanding of the concepts. Usually I find them on Jstor and sometimes NBER. Generally I find it more important to know why things happened than dabble over dates and numbers, most of which by nature of written accounts are probably inaccurate anyways.

If I am forced to write citations, I will add dragons in the TL and move this to ASB. I hate citations :). I will write them for the important things, but not every detail as if I'm back in school, I don't want this hobby to feel like work.

Also as a disclaimer that I should have done ages ago, I do not support torture, massacres, crusades or anything along those lines. Anything written is purely fictional unless stated otherwise.
 
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Ah, ok. I feel bad for the ottomans, getting thrashed and divided into petty states, but at the byyzies are safe…or are they? (Dramatic music)

Coming up next: byzantium resurges a bit. Begin screams of delight from eastern roman fanboys, then boos from venice fanboys, and crying from ottoman fanboys :p

I like all three so i dont know what to feel :) :mad: :( :confused:
 
Ah, ok. I feel bad for the ottomans, getting thrashed and divided into petty states, but at the byyzies are safe…or are they? (Dramatic music)

Coming up next: byzantium resurges a bit. Begin screams of delight from eastern roman fanboys, then boos from venice fanboys, and crying from ottoman fanboys :p

I like all three so i dont know what to feel :) :mad: :( :confused:
I'm a fan of all three too... Some sort of modus vivendi with the (space filling) eastern empire centered around Constsntinople., is feasible.

As to the Venetians... I would not mind them evolving into a North-Italian federal/confederal successor state of sorts. Nor would I mind them simply remaining independent and prosperous a LA the dutch. So long as they "live long and prosper" as a Serene Republic tis all good. The key is getting to India and Indonesia by the 1500s or so. Once they've established connections and the odd outpost to secure trade Venice is set.
Their core is Istria, the Veneto and Dalmatia. They should be dead set against any powers making gains there (no Austrian Trieste/Friuli). Same for powers expanding into Italy. IMO they simply cannot compete against e.g. France, Austria, Spain, without at least controlling all of North Italy and having a great power ally. Best case is a friendly, allied state combining Savoy+Milan+Genoa and Corsica, with the Republic's borders at around Trent and Trieste/Istria down to Ferrara. Controlling all the alpine passages themselves or with their friends.
Beyond that... If they want to truly dominate the Med they might try to take Malta, and get their western friend to take any of Sardinia, Gibraltar, maybe the Balearics. Small, easily defensible chokepoints to secure all shipping on the Mare Nostrum. If theres an accesible source of silver (Tirol?) that could give them an in with the Ming. Plus the silver wouldn't be enough to destabilize the Chinese economy.

I always take Alexandria in an EUIV Venice campaign. Both from Caesars timeline and the resonance of Saint Marks city it just seems natural. Beyond the eventual "Venetian East Indies" I think blocking Austrian expansion (the rest of Istria?) and keeping either of France or Spain from dominating the peninsula should be long term goals.
 
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Politics have no relation to morals

1405 Fall

The Most Serene Republic of Venice concludes a peace treaty with Milan, the terms of which are that Venice concedes defeat, hands over all officials of Padua in Venetian territory, pays an indemnity of 2,000,000 ducats (roughly half the annual state budget), and ceases all aid to Padua . No territorial concessions are demanded, Visconti knows that he can easily conquer them later after dealing with Naples and does not wish to degrade his army against a minor foe.

In Milan Visconti sends word for new taxes and armies to be raised. Competent, intelligent, and ambitious Gian Galeazzo Visconti is a dragon among men. His only weakness is that he is a poor loser, unaccustomed to being denied he plans his next move. When spring comes and the glacier waters flow so too shall the blood of his foes.

In Venice there is a sense of outrage over the betrayal by Naples and the Papal States, yet it lacks the strength to do much about it. Given the truce with Milan, much of the dismissed mercenaries find employment within the ranks of Milan's army. Still, the threat of Milan continues and a special election is called to raise funds, ten Patricians are elected from 50 candidates each of whom had to pay a fortune to be considered. The Venetian army is deemed too small and efforts are made to increase its size, the Venetian lands are running on borrowed time. The financial loss of the war is accepted as a sunk cost and the Republic resumes its mercantile pursuit of profit.

Offers of an alliance against Naples from the Papal States are rejected as an expensive waste, nonetheless the Venetian diplomat respond that the offer is under consideration. At the same time, similar offers are made to Milan, Hungary, and Aragon offering Hungary and Milan revenge and Martin of Aragon legitimacy for his illegitimate heir. With Aragon following the anti-pope the offer is dismissed out of hand but in the courts of Milan and Hungary the offer finds receptive ears. For Sigismund, it is the perfect way to reclaim his Adriatic fiefs and exact revenge on a pretender to the throne.

Forgotten by the powers and unmentioned by the peace, the village of Valdottavo, located between Genoa, Milan, and Florence becomes de facto independent. Numbering at 200 the village quickly becomes a heaven for criminals and smugglers and would be obscurely independent for centuries.


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Map of the Mediterranean in 1406​

1406

Maria de Luna, Queen consort of Aragon dies and left in her wake are the two legitimatized grandson and granddaughter of King Martin of Aragon. While Martin was suppressing revolts in Sicily, Maria was the de facto regent of Aragon-Catalonia-Valencia. Maria was known for her charity to the poor, her refugee for Jews and Muslims, her peaceful nature, and her piousness her death was mourned throughout the kingdom. A monastic scribe would later remark that at the relative indifference shown at her husband's funeral years later.

With the Kingdom of Naples heirless, the Republic of Genoa a shadow of its former self ,the Kingdom of the Lombards (Milan) and the Kingdom of the Franks uninterested the nobles of Arborea are left with the inevitable fate of being subjugated to the Kingdom of Aragon-Sicily. Motivated by preservation of their local interests the nobles of Arborea "encourage" the eleven year old queen Aurore to betroth the five year old count Frederic of Aragon. While it is understood that under Salic law that the House of Barcelona will inherit the queendom of Arborea the nobles hope that their extreme youth would give their free reigns in Arborea and leave the problems of Aragonese inheritance to the next generation. For King Martin the marriage offers him an easy expansion to his kingdom as well as greater legitimacy for his chosen heir Frederic, the nobles that support a Trastámara heir might now have to relinquish the island of Arborea should they now proceed with their plans. At home queen Aurore is kept under close watch , no attempt is made to provide her with the training needed of rulers and her days are fill with idle distractions while the nobles scheme.


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St. Roch Patron of dogs, the sick, the patron saint of dogs, the wrongly accused, and protection against the plague.

The island of San Lazzaro Degli Armeni, a leper colony on an isolated island within the Venetian lagoon is expanded to quarantine plague victims with the generosity of the House of Mocenigo from Treviso. Having benefitted tremendously from his trading rights with the Ottomans Carlo Mocenigo has not only been able to return his son but also gain considerable wealth from his dealings with the Ottoman court. Despite the question of Ottoman succession, Mocenigo is welcomed by the various Ottoman factions as a supplier of arms and luxuries. Formerly dedicated solely to St. Lazarus the patron saint of lepers the island is now shared with St. Roch, the patron saint of dogs, the wrongly accused, and protection against the plague.

The city of Padua falls to the Milanese forces after two years of siege, weak and malnourished Francesco Novello Carrara goes down fighting while fending off enemies with a stool. Officially at peace through the conquest of his enemies, Visconti now looks to settle an old score with the only remaining contender in Italy, Naples.

Since the death of Mary of Hungary in 1395, Sigismund's rule has been precarious at best. Given the right to rule only due to the rights of his dead wife the situation worsened after the disaster at Nicopolis with his person being imprisoned at various times. In an attempt to secure the succession and his power, Sigismund marries Barbara of Celje in order to secure noble support in Hungary.

1407

Louis I, brother of the King of France and duke of Orléans is slain on orders of the house of the duke of Burgundy. A civil war breaks out between Burgundy and the rival faction led by the count of Armagnac. The King of France, Charles VI of the House of Valois is powerless to stop the civil strife as his episodes of madness increase in severity. Overtures are made to the English by the duke of Burgundy for an alliance of sorts. [1]

An attempt by the low-born citizens of the Bishopric of Trent to form a republic is bloodily suppressed. The heads of the revolutionaries are displayed upon pikes on the city walls as a warning. The survivors either go into hiding or seek refuge in the Po valley. Despite the success of the suppression, the corrupt and unpopular Bishopric keeps losing control of the countryside while the domineering influence of Tyrol looms just over the mountains. [2]

Back in Venice a gradual and subtle change gains strength in the Senate. Unknown to Doge Tommaso Mocenigo who comes from the old Patrician stock the majority of the new Patricians do not share the old Patrician's strong disdain of tyrants. In contrast to the old Patricians who are born into their station the new Patricians had to carve out their own places in life, competition is the norm for the new generations and rewards for one's efforts only proper. Elected Doge at the relatively young age of 39 it has now been over twenty years since he first took office. An entire generation of Venetians raised with only cautionary tales of tyrants and no experience of the disdain of tyrants from the older Patricians. While they do not intentionally relinquish any rights, offices and responsibilities have slowly accumulated in the hands of the capable Tommaso Mocenigo through the decisions of the Patricians.

Through simple intimidation and force of personality, Ladislaus obtains the fiefs surrounding the duchy of Urbino connecting his lands between Tuscany and Naples. Some minor rebellions occur as Ladislaus' method of consolidating royal power is far more violent than Visconti's gradual methods.

Despite the betrayal of Ladislaus Milan is still the main threat to Venice. While Ladislaus is quite aware of the growing alliance against him, it is confirmed by a gesture of good will when Venetian diplomats secretly share secrets of the Pope's proposal and tentative plans. The Venetian senate believes that Naples will not be able to hold Tuscany which is technically territory of the Holy Roman Empire nor Rome of the Papacy in the long run. Knowing that he is unable to hold the Adriatic, Ladislaus attempts to sell his Adriatic rights to the Venetian Republic but is rebuffed due to Venetian concerns about conflict with Hungary. Much to his surprise, the Venetian senate offers to pay for mercenary assistance in their defense.



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[1] Just like OTL, due to Charles' mental illness the power of the throne is contested between his blood relatives. The assassination triggers a civil war and great instability. Note, during this time it is believe that madness is a genetic trait as well as contagious, which bodes poorly for Charles' sons.
[2] Exactly as OTL, the bishopric was very unpopular and facing domination by the lords of Lower Austria
 
Hi!

I like this timeline and I will follow it!

One mention, OTL, during the Ottoman Interregnum, the Wallachian Voievode Mircea reconquer the Dobrudja (at the mouths of the Danube) province (he first conquer it sometimes before the battle of Kosovo-Polje but lost it to Bayazed). His son will lost it again to Mehmet I. It was the period when Wallachia was the strongest in all it's history (it has money, enough manpower and week neighbors). Will he do it the same ITTL?

Please continue!
 
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