The City of Water:A Venetian TL (Discontinued: See V2 in Industrial Progress: A Story Of Venetian..)
- Thread starter Lucius Verus
- Start date
- Status
Lucius Verus
Banned
I'm Hungary that you fix the spelling of "hungry" in the peace treaty
Thank you, but please keep minor things like this in PMs to avoid clutter in the thread. (It does seem obvious in retrospect)
Lucius Verus
Banned
Interlude
Background
At the end of the 14th century, Italy was the richest region of Europe. It's population urbanized , rich, highly mobile, and literate. The geography of Italy and its particular political history contributed to its fragmentation. The Italian peninsula is quite mountainous and fragmented , the only exception is the fertile Po Valley in the north stretching from Milan to Adriatic Sea. During much of the 11th-13th century the Italian states grew in wealth from trade and merchant rule. Italy was rather poor in agricultural and industrial resource , however by the end of the 15th century Northern Italy had accumulated large amounts of capital and infrastructure .
1382
Never a moment of peace among the Italian states, Francesco da Carrara of Padua marches on the former Venetian city of Treviso again . Duke Leopard of Austria, the nominal sovereign of Treviso is unwilling to fight for territories he has not invested in and sells the former Venetian mainland for a mere 100,000 ducats (for comparison the annual Venetian taxation is easily in the millions)
For the Venetian republic this was one of the worst possibilities, her trade routes to Central Europe at the whims of a hostile despot. Furthermore the Venetian republic is unable to respond being depopulated and deprived of her mainland recruiting grounds. Fortunately, Carrara does not possess a noteworthy fleet.
For now the Most Serene Republic can only spectate, for he controls the Po valley, controls the wealthiest lands of Europe.
*Note: Only two nation are affected by the POD so far, Venice and Genoa. All other events listed are the same as OTL
Background
At the end of the 14th century, Italy was the richest region of Europe. It's population urbanized , rich, highly mobile, and literate. The geography of Italy and its particular political history contributed to its fragmentation. The Italian peninsula is quite mountainous and fragmented , the only exception is the fertile Po Valley in the north stretching from Milan to Adriatic Sea. During much of the 11th-13th century the Italian states grew in wealth from trade and merchant rule. Italy was rather poor in agricultural and industrial resource , however by the end of the 15th century Northern Italy had accumulated large amounts of capital and infrastructure .
1382
Never a moment of peace among the Italian states, Francesco da Carrara of Padua marches on the former Venetian city of Treviso again . Duke Leopard of Austria, the nominal sovereign of Treviso is unwilling to fight for territories he has not invested in and sells the former Venetian mainland for a mere 100,000 ducats (for comparison the annual Venetian taxation is easily in the millions)
For the Venetian republic this was one of the worst possibilities, her trade routes to Central Europe at the whims of a hostile despot. Furthermore the Venetian republic is unable to respond being depopulated and deprived of her mainland recruiting grounds. Fortunately, Carrara does not possess a noteworthy fleet.
For now the Most Serene Republic can only spectate, for he controls the Po valley, controls the wealthiest lands of Europe.
*Note: Only two nation are affected by the POD so far, Venice and Genoa. All other events listed are the same as OTL
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Kingpoleon
Banned
I notice you keep saying Republic, but the title doesn't have Republic in it. As a good majority of alternate history enthusiasts like a monarchy, is a monarchy even a possibility? I would like an oligarchy, personally, but that doesn't seem likely with the depleted number of patricians.
Lucius Verus
Banned
Wait and see, Venice has a history of misgivings with dynasties. That however was the time when the consensus among the Patricians that no individual family should have too much power.
As a monarchy-lover, I hope Venice doesn't succumb to having a king or queen. It wouldn't be the Repubblica Serenissima as we know it.
Lucius Verus
Banned
New Beginnings
Chapter 2
A bit of flavor on the city of water.
An artist's depiction of the annual Marriage of the Sea Ceremony
The mentality of Venetian invincibility, reinforced by centuries of protection by the lagoon has been shattered. It became clear that Venice may not be able to defend herself against the vast armies of monarchs and tyrants without allies or armies of her own. The while the means to achieve security were not clear, there was consensus that the Republic has to change. Nonetheless the people of Venice yearned for a return to normalcy, and the coronation of a new Doge was just what was needed.
Of the surviving few dozen patricians, over a third were considered too old, sick, or maimed in participate in politics. Only three of the ancient families survived and only 14 members were affluent, in short the senate no longer held a dominate position in the city. Many ordinances are left unenforced and only the most immediate concerns of shelter, security, food, and commerce are dealt with. The remaining council was split between traditionalist which preferred to keep the status-quo and those that favoured expanding the council. The debate was quickly settled with the simple fact that the existing council did not have the power to rule Venice, if the remaining members hoped to govern then would need help.
It is from these circumstances that on January 11th, 1382 that the Serrata of the Great Council formally came to an end. 150 new Patricians were elected by secret ballot by the people of Venice based on popularity, usually it was based on how they contributed during the war. One of the first acts of the new council was to revoke the automatic enrolment of council family members as Patricians at age 25 .[1]
As per tradition the new council of over two hundred convened to choose the next Doge and end the regency. Using numbered balls obscured in baskets, thirty members of the Great Council, chosen by lot, were reduced by lot to nine; the nine chose forty and the forty were reduced by lot to twelve, who chose twenty-five. The twenty-five were reduced by lot to nine and the nine elected forty-five. Then the forty-five were once more reduced by lot to eleven, and the eleven finally chose the forty-one who actually elected the doge. None could be elected but by at least twenty-five votes out of forty-one, nine votes out of eleven or twelve, or seven votes out of nine electors. This convoluted process assured that the selection of the Doge was random, as one cannot reliably predict who will be chosen to bribe or intimidate.
Portrait of Tommaso Mocenigo, 60th Doge of Venice
The new Doge was a man named Tommaso Mocenigo, a Patrician captain who won great respect for his victories in the war against the Genoese. On the 19th of January, Tommaso Mocenigo spoke the words "This is your doge, if it please you." before the square in San Marco and took the oath of doge. By tradition, with the exception of diplomacy he may not leave the Ducal palace till death. [2][3]
On Ascension day May 14th, a procession of boats led by the doge's ship sailed out to sea. The doge offered the traditional prayer "for us and all who sail thereon the sea may be calm and quiet" and proceeded to sprinkle the procession with holy water. At the end of the ceremony, the Tommaso Mocenigo removed a ring from his finger and casted it into the sea "We wed thee, sea, in the sign of the true and everlasting Lord, for we and the sea are inseparably one"
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[1] In OTL 30 members were added to the council, of whom had to be affirmed by the existing council-this is not an option with a weaker and much smaller council.
[2] In OTL Tommaso Mocenigo was elected the doge in 1414, he was a capable war fighter , he served as a diplomat, he supported commerce , and he was a patron of the arts. His survival in TL was mostly due to him being at sea during the battle of Venice.
[3] The tradition of restraining the doges was part of the regulations and rules applied to the doge to restrict his power. The most important one was that upon his death, a commission will audit the former Doge for crimes specifically targeted against dynasties. Even so several crafty Doges still managed to exert considerable influence.
Chapter 2
A bit of flavor on the city of water.
An artist's depiction of the annual Marriage of the Sea Ceremony
The mentality of Venetian invincibility, reinforced by centuries of protection by the lagoon has been shattered. It became clear that Venice may not be able to defend herself against the vast armies of monarchs and tyrants without allies or armies of her own. The while the means to achieve security were not clear, there was consensus that the Republic has to change. Nonetheless the people of Venice yearned for a return to normalcy, and the coronation of a new Doge was just what was needed.
Of the surviving few dozen patricians, over a third were considered too old, sick, or maimed in participate in politics. Only three of the ancient families survived and only 14 members were affluent, in short the senate no longer held a dominate position in the city. Many ordinances are left unenforced and only the most immediate concerns of shelter, security, food, and commerce are dealt with. The remaining council was split between traditionalist which preferred to keep the status-quo and those that favoured expanding the council. The debate was quickly settled with the simple fact that the existing council did not have the power to rule Venice, if the remaining members hoped to govern then would need help.
It is from these circumstances that on January 11th, 1382 that the Serrata of the Great Council formally came to an end. 150 new Patricians were elected by secret ballot by the people of Venice based on popularity, usually it was based on how they contributed during the war. One of the first acts of the new council was to revoke the automatic enrolment of council family members as Patricians at age 25 .[1]
As per tradition the new council of over two hundred convened to choose the next Doge and end the regency. Using numbered balls obscured in baskets, thirty members of the Great Council, chosen by lot, were reduced by lot to nine; the nine chose forty and the forty were reduced by lot to twelve, who chose twenty-five. The twenty-five were reduced by lot to nine and the nine elected forty-five. Then the forty-five were once more reduced by lot to eleven, and the eleven finally chose the forty-one who actually elected the doge. None could be elected but by at least twenty-five votes out of forty-one, nine votes out of eleven or twelve, or seven votes out of nine electors. This convoluted process assured that the selection of the Doge was random, as one cannot reliably predict who will be chosen to bribe or intimidate.
Portrait of Tommaso Mocenigo, 60th Doge of Venice
The new Doge was a man named Tommaso Mocenigo, a Patrician captain who won great respect for his victories in the war against the Genoese. On the 19th of January, Tommaso Mocenigo spoke the words "This is your doge, if it please you." before the square in San Marco and took the oath of doge. By tradition, with the exception of diplomacy he may not leave the Ducal palace till death. [2][3]
On Ascension day May 14th, a procession of boats led by the doge's ship sailed out to sea. The doge offered the traditional prayer "for us and all who sail thereon the sea may be calm and quiet" and proceeded to sprinkle the procession with holy water. At the end of the ceremony, the Tommaso Mocenigo removed a ring from his finger and casted it into the sea "We wed thee, sea, in the sign of the true and everlasting Lord, for we and the sea are inseparably one"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] In OTL 30 members were added to the council, of whom had to be affirmed by the existing council-this is not an option with a weaker and much smaller council.
[2] In OTL Tommaso Mocenigo was elected the doge in 1414, he was a capable war fighter , he served as a diplomat, he supported commerce , and he was a patron of the arts. His survival in TL was mostly due to him being at sea during the battle of Venice.
[3] The tradition of restraining the doges was part of the regulations and rules applied to the doge to restrict his power. The most important one was that upon his death, a commission will audit the former Doge for crimes specifically targeted against dynasties. Even so several crafty Doges still managed to exert considerable influence.
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I am always interested in a Venetian TL
The (forced) reversal of the closure of the Gran Consiglio is a good POD, and should work well to keep a meritocratic attitude in Venice.
Minor nitpick: in 1382 Gian Galeazzo is not yet duke of Milan (although he has received the investiture as Imperial Vicar in Italy). More importantly, his uncle Barnabo' is still the nominal head of the Visconti family and since he is married to Beatrice della Scala (daughter of the lord of Verona) and not in good relations with his in-laws Francesco da Carrara would be more likely to sound him up first. IOTL Barnabo' was ousted (and subsequently poisoned) in 1385, after which Gian Galeazzo set up an alliance with Mantua, Ferrara and Padua with Verona as an obvious target. I doubt GG would be in a position to anticipate his coup to 1382.
The (forced) reversal of the closure of the Gran Consiglio is a good POD, and should work well to keep a meritocratic attitude in Venice.
Minor nitpick: in 1382 Gian Galeazzo is not yet duke of Milan (although he has received the investiture as Imperial Vicar in Italy). More importantly, his uncle Barnabo' is still the nominal head of the Visconti family and since he is married to Beatrice della Scala (daughter of the lord of Verona) and not in good relations with his in-laws Francesco da Carrara would be more likely to sound him up first. IOTL Barnabo' was ousted (and subsequently poisoned) in 1385, after which Gian Galeazzo set up an alliance with Mantua, Ferrara and Padua with Verona as an obvious target. I doubt GG would be in a position to anticipate his coup to 1382.
Lucius Verus
Banned
I am always interested in a Venetian TL
The (forced) reversal of the closure of the Gran Consiglio is a good POD, and should work well to keep a meritocratic attitude in Venice.
Minor nitpick: in 1382 Gian Galeazzo is not yet duke of Milan (although he has received the investiture as Imperial Vicar in Italy). More importantly, his uncle Barnabo' is still the nominal head of the Visconti family and since he is married to Beatrice della Scala (daughter of the lord of Verona) and not in good relations with his in-laws Francesco da Carrara would be more likely to sound him up first. IOTL Barnabo' was ousted (and subsequently poisoned) in 1385, after which Gian Galeazzo set up an alliance with Mantua, Ferrara and Padua with Verona as an obvious target. I doubt GG would be in a position to anticipate his coup to 1382.
Oh fair enough, I'll see to it as the butterflies only affect Genoa and Venice at this point. Missing the forest through the trees.
Changes start off small and I might as well unload the rant here, I haven't been able to figure out how to post the technical stuff without boring people to death. IMO the reasons for Venice's relative decline lay in reasons both political and geographical. In OTL when Venetian shipbuilding was declining in the late 1400s due to the depletion of oak in the Veneto region and excessive customs the Venetian council responded by imposing fees on ships from Ragusa, they also banned the moving the Arsenal to their Balkan possessions to relocate closer to sources of hard wood . While the luxury tastes of Europe shifted to the West Venice still had her own industries that she squandered away. In OTL when French silk , Flemish cloth and German glass were trying to compete with Venetian luxuries the council responded by burying its head in the sand insisting that it shall prevail through luxuries, while rival industries received subsidies the Venetian republic created more quality committees that were funded from exports, eventually reaching 50% of export value in the early 16th century. Business law never evolved beyond temporary contracts as the State Galleys made exclusive to the Patricians supplemented all the capital they needed instead of proper limited liability corporations. In OTL the Venetian republic decided ban non-patricians from participating in long range trade, so despite the Venetian trade market reaching Siam in the early 14th century (yes they had agents there) nothing ever developed from it as the patricians treated it as part of their just dues, they never tried hurting their Portuguese or Dutch competitors . They never got around to including aristocrats from the Venetian territories, its why their Crete kept revolting and their Dalmatian territories constantly inviting in foreign monarchs. Despite all of the advantages Venice possessed never in its history did the Venetian Senate ever managed to get their heads out of their asses to compete formulate a proper economic policy that wasn't incredible self-serving and self-destructive. There are plenty of other reason to Venetian decline, those are just the ones which had to do with governance. A wiser Venetian republic could have prospered throughout the ages, instead it decided to shoot itself in the leg.
Now that being said, there is plenty of possibility with the kaleidoscope of kings and nations in Northern Italy.
As a person who has to unload loads of technical stuff in my TL, I think it can be done if you word it well enough. Besides, I like to see how the technical stuff works!
Then again, I'm not an expert in Venetian history, and from the looks of it Venice's problems are ones that were drawn out over a period of centuries rather than decades. So, just putting it out there that some technical stuff isn't always that boring (at least not to me).As of the update, looks the the Serenissima* is getting an infusion of new blood in the political sphere, and a Doge that knows how to govern too. Can't say for the rest of Italy, but I have a feeling Genoa's gonna be in for a wild ride, which is kinda sad considering it's the other Serene Republic I personally like in Europe (then again, I'm a sucker for Serene Republics in this era). Oh well, butterflies are bound to end up causing something anyways... wish it could accommodate both republics though.
On another note, with a date this far back, may we see Venice breaking out into the Indian Ocean? Because if so, then I will try my hardest to direct you towards the Malacca Straits, and towards a particular polyglot sultanate that flourished within that era... *is a Malacca tinhat fan*
*I don't know why, but I really like the sound of the word Serenissima. Repubblica Serenissima...
Lucius Verus
Banned
On another note, with a date this far back, may we see Venice breaking out into the Indian Ocean? Because if so, then I will try my hardest to direct you towards the Malacca Straits, and towards a particular polyglot sultanate that flourished within that era... *is a Malacca tinhat fan*
That's the thing, Venetian merchants were in India by the 13th century, what it lacked was any state backing vs the national navies of western Europe. And unlike the English whose successful private ventures were eventually backed by the state the Venetian state made long range trade a royal monopoly and you never got the true colonial entrepreneur no one could make profit in the Indian ocean unless they were specifically sent by Patricians.
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Kingpoleon
Banned
It would be the Monarchia Serenissima as we would know it if we existed in such a TL.As a monarchy-lover, I hope Venice doesn't succumb to having a king or queen. It wouldn't be the Repubblica Serenissima as we know it.
Lucius Verus
Banned
State of Affairs
1382-1400
Venetian population:
Devastated by the war of Venice, the post-war population of Venice has been reduced to a mere 40,000 (for comparison, her peak population was 120,000 earlier in the century). The loss of Dalmatia and Treviso severely reduced her manpower pool necessitating the employment of mercenary bands, if they could be afforded. With a special edict extending the tax free status of foreign craftsman, many immigrants in the next decade came to call the city home. To the dismay of the old guilds, rival German and French immigrants refuse to join the existing guilds within the city.
Venetian navy:
Relatively untouched by the war in both material and manpower the Venetian merchants quickly rushed to fill the void left by the Genoese.
Her great galleys , as ships of great security they continue their annual voyages to the Atlantic ferrying high value low bulk cargo such as spices ,sugar ,jewellery, and luxury cloth. Upon debarking their goods in London and the low countries the great galleys would ship wool from England in exchange for Flemish cloth, which can be turned for a nice profit anywhere in Europe.
Meanwhile, her massive fleet of cogs (sail-borne round ships) dominated trade in the Eastern Mediterranean while the Atlantic and Western Mediterranean are contested by Portuguese and Argonese merchants. Her cogs carried all manner of mundane goods such as tin, iron, cloth, cloth, wool, salt, grain, bow wood, and silver throughout Europe .
To compliment this array of merchants are her fleet of galleys most of whom are small but fast enough to chase down pirates. [2]
Yet the great galleys for all their security are limited in their time, unknown to the merchants and shipbuilders of Venice the very naval bombards they championed during the war of Venice was soon to render them obsolete. The Venetian galleys of the following decades saw the advent of naval bombards and a corresponding decrease in the construction of superstructures, formerly constructed to give archers and marines a height advantage.
Venetian Industry:
The loss of the metal works in Treviso*has been a drag on the Venetian state coffers, nonetheless her glass and textiles industries are booming . Special incentives are made to attract skilled workers with taxes waived for the first five years of residence. (the terms are a bit more generous than OTL, but the essence is the same)
The loss of many artisans during the war of Venice had severe effects upon the existing guilds, formerly designed to provide social welfare, quality control, education, and supply limits to increase price most guilds were unable to respond to the tragedy of the war and faded in importance. One particular exception to the decline of guilds after the war is the workers of the Arsenal, withheld from combat as a strategic industry and protected from fighting by the walls enclosing the Arsenal the ship builders of Venice emerged as the sole surviving Venetian guild.
Despite the loss of artisans production of luxury glass , cloth and furniture remained on par with pre-war levels as many artisans left the declining along with their imposed production limits.
Venetian Law
With the infusion of new Patricians certain laws of the old council were revoke or simply not enforced. The restriction of the Great Galleys to members of the Patrician has been revoked as the Patricians are no longer economically hegemonic in Venice, long distance trade was now available to all. An expansion of trade in Asian luxury occurs as
By demand of merchants and workers of the Arsenal many duties and fees all goods except salt and grain have been weaved and shipbuilding of the republic is greatly boosted. [3]
[1] Anyone interested in the lives of everyday Venetians can read the works of Working Women of Early Modern Venice: Monica Chojnacka, while histories normally record the lives of the nobility the Venetian Inquisition has retained a great deal of information from trials.
[2] Anyone interested in the technical aspects such as cargo capacity and construction methods can read the works of Fredrick C lane who has published numerous papers on the economics of the Venetian republic.
[3] In OTL fees and duties meant to confer the Patricians an advantage almost destroyed Venetian shipbuilding and shipping . The effects were so severe it was cheaper for Dutch ships to ship sugar from Crete and Cyprus to Gorz and walk it to Venice than it was to ship it directly via Venetian shipping. While the rates varied throughout history, by the end of the 15th century they were gradually strangling Venetian commerce.
1382-1400
Venetian population:
Devastated by the war of Venice, the post-war population of Venice has been reduced to a mere 40,000 (for comparison, her peak population was 120,000 earlier in the century). The loss of Dalmatia and Treviso severely reduced her manpower pool necessitating the employment of mercenary bands, if they could be afforded. With a special edict extending the tax free status of foreign craftsman, many immigrants in the next decade came to call the city home. To the dismay of the old guilds, rival German and French immigrants refuse to join the existing guilds within the city.
Venetian navy:
Relatively untouched by the war in both material and manpower the Venetian merchants quickly rushed to fill the void left by the Genoese.
Her great galleys , as ships of great security they continue their annual voyages to the Atlantic ferrying high value low bulk cargo such as spices ,sugar ,jewellery, and luxury cloth. Upon debarking their goods in London and the low countries the great galleys would ship wool from England in exchange for Flemish cloth, which can be turned for a nice profit anywhere in Europe.
Meanwhile, her massive fleet of cogs (sail-borne round ships) dominated trade in the Eastern Mediterranean while the Atlantic and Western Mediterranean are contested by Portuguese and Argonese merchants. Her cogs carried all manner of mundane goods such as tin, iron, cloth, cloth, wool, salt, grain, bow wood, and silver throughout Europe .
To compliment this array of merchants are her fleet of galleys most of whom are small but fast enough to chase down pirates. [2]
Yet the great galleys for all their security are limited in their time, unknown to the merchants and shipbuilders of Venice the very naval bombards they championed during the war of Venice was soon to render them obsolete. The Venetian galleys of the following decades saw the advent of naval bombards and a corresponding decrease in the construction of superstructures, formerly constructed to give archers and marines a height advantage.
Venetian Industry:
The loss of the metal works in Treviso*has been a drag on the Venetian state coffers, nonetheless her glass and textiles industries are booming . Special incentives are made to attract skilled workers with taxes waived for the first five years of residence. (the terms are a bit more generous than OTL, but the essence is the same)
The loss of many artisans during the war of Venice had severe effects upon the existing guilds, formerly designed to provide social welfare, quality control, education, and supply limits to increase price most guilds were unable to respond to the tragedy of the war and faded in importance. One particular exception to the decline of guilds after the war is the workers of the Arsenal, withheld from combat as a strategic industry and protected from fighting by the walls enclosing the Arsenal the ship builders of Venice emerged as the sole surviving Venetian guild.
Despite the loss of artisans production of luxury glass , cloth and furniture remained on par with pre-war levels as many artisans left the declining along with their imposed production limits.
Venetian Law
With the infusion of new Patricians certain laws of the old council were revoke or simply not enforced. The restriction of the Great Galleys to members of the Patrician has been revoked as the Patricians are no longer economically hegemonic in Venice, long distance trade was now available to all. An expansion of trade in Asian luxury occurs as
By demand of merchants and workers of the Arsenal many duties and fees all goods except salt and grain have been weaved and shipbuilding of the republic is greatly boosted. [3]
[1] Anyone interested in the lives of everyday Venetians can read the works of Working Women of Early Modern Venice: Monica Chojnacka, while histories normally record the lives of the nobility the Venetian Inquisition has retained a great deal of information from trials.
[2] Anyone interested in the technical aspects such as cargo capacity and construction methods can read the works of Fredrick C lane who has published numerous papers on the economics of the Venetian republic.
[3] In OTL fees and duties meant to confer the Patricians an advantage almost destroyed Venetian shipbuilding and shipping . The effects were so severe it was cheaper for Dutch ships to ship sugar from Crete and Cyprus to Gorz and walk it to Venice than it was to ship it directly via Venetian shipping. While the rates varied throughout history, by the end of the 15th century they were gradually strangling Venetian commerce.
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Lucius Verus
Banned
Looks like padua is set to conquer venice…until francesco gets poisoned by someone the venetians hired
He would run into the same problem as OTL, Padua does not have a naval tradition or fleet.
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reduced to a mere what???
Waived. Please. Unless they are slaloming back and forth.
Re: Infodumps
Some of us use footnotes to point out technical info, and point out differences from OTL, to not burden the flow of the story, but to help the reader keep track.
Lucius Verus
Banned
Thank you for pointing those out, it is my first TL but that doesn't excuse non-stylistic and non-factual mistakes. For the sake of de-cluttering please PM corrections and errors in the future.
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