The “Magnificent Age” - Catherine II TL

Well, IMO, getting the areas where majority of a population is going to be generally sympathetic to the new masters makes more sense than ending up with the territories having predominantly Polish and Lithuanian population and resulting OTL problems.
Notions of Polishness certainly aren't going to just disappear after all, yeah, so it imposes a cost on ending Poland as an entity on the map. Whether the courts in Berlin, Vienna, and Saint Petersburg want to deal with those consequences and costs...million dollar question. It's not like the PLC is meaningfully independent anyways.
Speaking of which, ITTL there are plenty of “interesting” problems besides dealing with the Poles outside and inside the Russian Empire.
Yeah, there's certainly many issues that'll crop up. Some involving Poles, some not...
 
Well, after Nappy, yes.
Even before Nappy RE got a lot of the Polish nobility in the lands it annexed.

I was thinking the 1795 partition borders as a comparison point, rather...
ITTL it is mostly unnecessary. Unless you want almost straight North-South border.

(Should be noted that the Tsar in the 1810s was quite Polonophilic and Russia getting Poland had a different tenor in those circumstances)
Oh yes. AI pushed “brotherly love” down both Polish and Russian throats and spent big sums of money on all types of the infrastructural developments in the Kingdom with the investments continued during the reign of NI until the uprising. Manufacturing was created but the love part did not work out on either side.
 
Even before Nappy RE got a lot of the Polish nobility in the lands it annexed.
To be expected, Polish nobility were as far as I understand the bulk of the landed elite in the PLC so it makes sense.
ITTL it is mostly unnecessary. Unless you want almost straight North-South border.
Yeah that's markedly unnecessary here...lines on the map don't exist just to look pretty.
Oh yes. AI pushed “brotherly love” down both Polish and Russian throats and spent big sums of money on all types of the infrastructural developments in the Kingdom with the investments continued during the reign of NI until the uprising. Manufacturing was created but the love part did not work out on either side.
I have to suspect that part of the reason was that ultimately they had no common enemy, combined with the usual bad blood...anyhow, there are reasons why it was hard for it to permanently work IOTL and those reasons still mostly apply ITTL.
 
To be expected, Polish nobility were as far as I understand the bulk of the landed elite in the PLC so it makes sense.
They and the Catholic Church, which would be overlapping entities.

Now, in OTL part of the Polish nobility (I’m talking strictly about the Russian in pre- and post-Napoleonic times) went to various degrees along with the new masters and part left, creating a sizable pool of the lands/serfs to be granted. Out of those who remained some became full-scale loyalists but quite a few did not. In the Kingdom, while AI was appreciated and the Polish ladies were quite popular among his retinue thanks for their more “French” style of behavior comparing to their Russian counterparts, the resentment did not go away. The Polish nobility tended to look at the Russians down their noses considering themselves more “European” (with or without a valid reason) and the Russians were not happy with the Alexander’s pronounced Polish sympathies: at least by the reputation, in 1812 the Polish troops were considered the most cruel among the invading troops. Plus, besides the fact that the Kingdom pretty much preserved its Napoleonic army, its government was insisting upon transferring to the Kingdom the Belorussian and Ukrainian lands “lost” during the partitions. So the whole schema did not make too much sense for either side.

Now, on a limited scale, up to OTL 2nd Partition or TTL Partition, a sum total of the ethnic Poles on the annexed territories is not too big and, while the Catholic Church is still around, they are lacking the “infrastructure” needed for anything serious: the areas are under the Russian administration, there are no Polish troops (the nobles who want to serve are joining the Russian army) and the peasants are generally hostile to the landowners. Situation in the urban areas is more complicated but even in the worst case scenario they are hardly a decisive factor, especially if the new administration makes some meaningful moves like eliminating nobility/church jurisdiction over some urban districts, etc.

Yeah that's markedly unnecessary here...lines on the map don't exist just to look pretty.

Unless your main goal is to achieve a geometrical perfection making a perfectly round or rectangular state. 😜
I have to suspect that part of the reason was that ultimately they had no common enemy, combined with the usual bad blood...anyhow, there are reasons why it was hard for it to permanently work IOTL and those reasons still mostly apply ITTL.
First of all, there are no memories of two extra Russian-Polish wars and 1812 and, as I said, the Polish nobility in the region(s) is lacking infrastructure allowing to become a major problem instead of being a minor nuisance. Those who want to move somewhere socially have to adopt to the general system rather than trying to do the same in the separate national one. Quite a few Poles did this in OTL, some with a noticeable success, and I’m not talking about the top aristocratic types like Adam Czartoryski.
 
If I were Ekatarina right now, I would immediately push the Russianafication agenda, even if the Polish and Lithuanians do not completely assimilate, it would help
 
Laugh you fiend, laugh! 😉😉

I still want Inner and Outer Mongolia and Manchuria. Like in the other timeline. Here I want Lithuania too.
I can understand Mongolia and probably even a part of Manchuria (both have something valuable) but why anybody would want Lithuania (no offense to the Lithuanians) is beyond me. 😜😜😜😜
 
They and the Catholic Church, which would be overlapping entities.

Now, in OTL part of the Polish nobility (I’m talking strictly about the Russian in pre- and post-Napoleonic times) went to various degrees along with the new masters and part left, creating a sizable pool of the lands/serfs to be granted. Out of those who remained some became full-scale loyalists but quite a few did not. In the Kingdom, while AI was appreciated and the Polish ladies were quite popular among his retinue thanks for their more “French” style of behavior comparing to their Russian counterparts, the resentment did not go away. The Polish nobility tended to look at the Russians down their noses considering themselves more “European” (with or without a valid reason) and the Russians were not happy with the Alexander’s pronounced Polish sympathies: at least by the reputation, in 1812 the Polish troops were considered the most cruel among the invading troops. Plus, besides the fact that the Kingdom pretty much preserved its Napoleonic army, its government was insisting upon transferring to the Kingdom the Belorussian and Ukrainian lands “lost” during the partitions. So the whole schema did not make too much sense for either side.

Now, on a limited scale, up to OTL 2nd Partition or TTL Partition, a sum total of the ethnic Poles on the annexed territories is not too big and, while the Catholic Church is still around, they are lacking the “infrastructure” needed for anything serious: the areas are under the Russian administration, there are no Polish troops (the nobles who want to serve are joining the Russian army) and the peasants are generally hostile to the landowners. Situation in the urban areas is more complicated but even in the worst case scenario they are hardly a decisive factor, especially if the new administration makes some meaningful moves like eliminating nobility/church jurisdiction over some urban districts, etc.



Unless your main goal is to achieve a geometrical perfection making a perfectly round or rectangular state. 😜

First of all, there are no memories of two extra Russian-Polish wars and 1812 and, as I said, the Polish nobility in the region(s) is lacking infrastructure allowing to become a major problem instead of being a minor nuisance. Those who want to move somewhere socially have to adopt to the general system rather than trying to do the same in the separate national one. Quite a few Poles did this in OTL, some with a noticeable success, and I’m not talking about the top aristocratic types like Adam Czartoryski.
Thanks for all this informative stuff.
It might be better from the foreign courts' POV if the Polish nobles feel that they have more independence than they actually do...
 
These sorts of things are the most painful the first time, so that does make sense.
Yes, “these” things (the statement was about very specific type of the activities) probably should be painful and IMO similarity with the1st Partition was quite close even some insignificant technical details had been noticeably different. 😢😢😢😢😂
 
Yes, “these” things (the statement was about very specific type of the activities) probably should be painful and IMO similarity with the1st Partition was quite close even some insignificant technical details had been noticeably different. 😢😢😢😢😂
"Who wants a slice of PLC Pizza? Only the most powerful Germans and the most powerful Russian are able to apply, this is an exclusive offer!"
 
Thanks for all this informative stuff.
It might be better from the foreign courts' POV if the Polish nobles feel that they have more independence than they actually do...
In OTL the Polish nobles acted all the way to the 1860s based mostly on their feelings producing a lot of admiration by their patriotism and bravery but very little respect to their brain power. Nappy simply considered Kościuszko to be a lunatic.
 
In OTL the Polish nobles acted all the way to the 1860s based mostly on their feelings producing a lot of admiration by their patriotism and bravery but very little respect to their brain power. Nappy simply considered Kościuszko to be a lunatic.
Hmm, given this, they'll act even more insufferably proud ITTL if the partitions don't happen.
 
Hmm, given this, they'll act even more insufferably proud ITTL if the partitions don't happen.
As they did prior and between the partitions. While the “proud” part was on a rather peculiar side, taking into an account that it was intermixed with the regular ass kissings (look at Pane Kohanku article in the wiki), probably even worse for the PLC was their idea about them being capable to outwit the outside powers, which was one of the reasons while extremely frustrated CII gave up on her earlier policy (which was, admittedly, not very smart) and agreed upon the partitioning.
 
As they did prior and between the partitions. While the “proud” part was on a rather peculiar side, taking into an account that it was intermixed with the regular ass kissings (look at Pane Kohanku article in the wiki), probably even worse for the PLC was their idea about them being capable to outwit the outside powers, which was one of the reasons while extremely frustrated CII gave up on her earlier policy (which was, admittedly, not very smart) and agreed upon the partitioning.
How much did the partitions actually decrease the practical independence of Poland?
 
The schlazta probably got unrealistic expectations from him...really unrealistic expectations...
IMO, Poland was a rather minor (even if a long lasting) potato in his disastrous activities. Russia did not have a single reason to join/organize the 3rd Coalition so many following things either would not happen or would be less terrible for Europe. And the Holy Alliance was a terrible thing that produced even more bad things, among them giving Russia a title “Gendarme of Europe”, which it actually hardly deserved except for the foolish interference into the Hungarian Uprising.
Add to this huge economic and financial problems following the Napoleonic wars and a loss of at least half a million of the healthy male population in a country that already had an overall low population density.
 
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Yes. He was really a very strange person and his activities tended to be on a disastrous side not only in relation to Poland.
He wanted a lot of things, which contradicted themselves. And his desire to be seen as the saviour of the Poles ended badly, for Poles too.

BTW I think Augenis once envisioned GDL separated from Poland "proper" to develop similarily to OTL Finland (with Polish speaking Lithuanians as analogue of Swedish speaking Finns). To some degree it may work, but things in GDL were far more complicated. Neither Polish nor Lithuanian was the language of majority of population and religious landscape also was radically different from uniformly Lutheran Finland. Even Vilnius region (not the city itself, which was predominately Polish speaking since 17th century) was at the time populated mainly by Belarusian speaking Catholics.
 
He wanted a lot of things, which contradicted themselves. And his desire to be seen as the saviour of the Poles ended badly, for Poles too.
His desire to be seen as the savior of Europe did not work well for anybody.
BTW I think Augenis once envisioned GDL separated from Poland "proper" to develop similarily to OTL Finland (with Polish speaking Lithuanians as analogue of Swedish speaking Finns). To some degree it may work, but things in GDL were far more complicated. Neither Polish nor Lithuanian
Lithuanian (Zmudian?) language was, even in mid-XIX, something of an “exotic” thing (see “Lokis” of P. Merimee).
was the language of majority of population and religious landscape also was radically different from uniformly Lutheran Finland. Even Vilnius region (not the city itself, which was predominately Polish speaking since 17th century) was at the time populated mainly by Belarusian speaking Catholics.
With GDL it would be additionally complicated by the fact that without the Belorussian territories which went to RE during the partitions it would be very small and the Belorussian gubernias were not on the table: a trial balloon on that account caused a big uproar in Russia.
 
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