The “Magnificent Age” - Catherine II TL

Fair. In all fairness I wasn't saying it was bad to rhetorically bludgeon the guy. I was simply noting how it was, non-judgmentally.
Seriously, he was very good for his time and place but deviousness was not the best weapon against the brutal force of someone like Frederick. In OTL Russian policy, at least in the early 1770s was something in between, “neither meat nor fish”, and this round CII lost to both Prussia and Austria. ITTL she is going to be much more ruthless in her politics from the very beginning.

BTW, I was thinking about the end of this stage of the PLC affair: should she limit herself with a “balanced” share on the South or go ahead and grab a big part of Belorussia as well? She has an excuse, Polish reneging on the dissidents deal, and getting most of the Orthodox territories surely would be a great PR domestically. But this a possible only if by the time of partition she has completely free hands and, preferably, victory against the Ottomans impressive enough to prevent Austria and Prussia from getting any ideas. Or this is too much and she must do it in stages (I’m talking strictly about the Orthodox areas of the PLC)?
 
Fair. Perhaps, with how badly Kaunitz misreads some things suggesting he doesn't necessarily have the ability to see reality, the fact that hasn't happened yet wouldn't actually matter.
Or perhaps he sees reality within the traditional framework of his and earlier generations? National idea is pretty much absent and territories are just drawings on a map which can be reshuffled to produce the desirable combinations. The states, even the most powerful ones, do not hav a military force allowing just to crush the enemy and dictate him your will and the politicians are indispensable in the convoluted negotiations.

Hence the ideas of “balancing” as something that will last for the centuries and other similar notions.
 
The negotiating strategy is you limit yourself to the 'balanced' share in the south *in return* for a big chunk of Belorussia. An initial very reasonable peace offer of everything east of the Prut with Wallachia/Moldavia as vassals. Then when Austria freaks out, agree with Frederick it would be really sweet to have Royal Prussia...Then graciously offer to let Ottomans have everything back east of the Dnieper and an equitable (unlike OTL!) partition of Poland. Then clarify if Austria *really* wants to go mano-o-mano when Russia controls everything Russia would have interest in annexing anyway while Frederick is drooling over Royal Prussia and risk being the only great power of the three to get nothing... Trick is to figure out how to have Austria be the one out of position getting a rawish deal rather than Russia like OTL but I have faith in you...
 
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Seriously, he was very good for his time and place but deviousness was not the best weapon against the brutal force of someone like Frederick. In OTL Russian policy, at least in the early 1770s was something in between, “neither meat nor fish”, and this round CII lost to both Prussia and Austria. ITTL she is going to be much more ruthless in her politics from the very beginning.

BTW, I was thinking about the end of this stage of the PLC affair: should she limit herself with a “balanced” share on the South or go ahead and grab a big part of Belorussia as well? She has an excuse, Polish reneging on the dissidents deal, and getting most of the Orthodox territories surely would be a great PR domestically. But this a possible only if by the time of partition she has completely free hands and, preferably, victory against the Ottomans impressive enough to prevent Austria and Prussia from getting any ideas. Or this is too much and she must do it in stages (I’m talking strictly about the Orthodox areas of the PLC)?
My preferences are not 100% locked in. I guess atm Russia is on track to do pretty well vs Ottomans but all sides will have diplomatic difficulties, so even the Ottomans aren't completely screwed.
 
The negotiating strategy is you limit yourself to the 'balanced' share in the south *in return* for a big chunk of Belorussia.

So Belorussia remains Polish? Here is a problem as defined by S. M. Soloviev: by agreeing (in OTL) on a balanced share Catherine lost because she got for fighting and great expenses an equal share with the countries which got their shares for nothing.

An initial very reasonable peace offer of everything east of the Prut with Wallachia/Moldavia as vassals. Then when Austria freaks out,
If the Ottomans signed a peace then Austrian hysteria on that issue is irrelevant: it is not their territory and they don’t have power to interfere militarily.
agree with Frederick it would be really sweet to have Royal Prussia...Then graciously offer to let Ottomans have everything back east of the Dnieper and an equitable (unlike OTL!) partition of Poland. Then clarify if Austria *really* wants to go mano-o-mano when Russia controls everything Russia would have interest in annexing anyway while Frederick is drooling over Royal Prussia and risk being the only great power of the three to get nothing... Trick is to figure out how to have Austria be the one out of position getting a rawish deal rather than Russia like OTL but I have faith in you...
Sounds quite “Kaunitzuan” (intended as a compliment 😉) but offering Ottomans “everything back east of the Dnieper” is a non-starter: relieving the suffering Orthodox Christians from a cruel Polish oppression was of course a noble goal but on a list of the priorities getting the Khanate (even as an independent state) was much more important. In OTL this was the main stumbling point in negotiations with the Ottomans. Another problem is status of Moldavia/Walachia. The Ottomans could (and eventually did) agree upon the Russian approval of the rulers but never upon making them Russian vassals. Perhaps you meant “east of the Danube” and west of the Pruth? Which gives the principalities back to the OE.

Royal Prussia for Frederick was not really a controversial except for the status of Danzig region so he is already on board with Russia. He does not really care about anything else but getting his share is subject to settling things with the PLC and for that he needs Russia. Well, he also does not want excessively big Austrian share and for this he also needs Russia.
On the last issue there is actually no need to invent too much because initially, Austrians were blamed most. Russia had an excuse of being de facto at war with the PLC over it reneging on the officially accepted conditions. Prussia was an enemy almost by definition and also had a dissident clause so its behavior was expected. But Austria had been posing as a friend and did not have any issues with the PLC whatsoever so its behavior was inexcusable.
 
My preferences are not 100% locked in. I guess atm Russia is on track to do pretty well vs Ottomans but all sides will have diplomatic difficulties, so even the Ottomans aren't completely screwed.
Ducking the responsibility leaving me with a burden of making a decision… 😂
 
Or perhaps he sees reality within the traditional framework of his and earlier generations? National idea is pretty much absent and territories are just drawings on a map which can be reshuffled to produce the desirable combinations. The states, even the most powerful ones, do not hav a military force allowing just to crush the enemy and dictate him your will and the politicians are indispensable in the convoluted negotiations.

Hence the ideas of “balancing” as something that will last for the centuries and other similar notions.
I wasn't accusing him of being dumb because he wasn't thinking in terms of national idea or whatnot. I was just saying the Austrian position in general is one of delusion considering the attitudes of the players involved.
 
I wasn't accusing him of being dumb because he wasn't thinking in terms of national idea or whatnot. I was just saying the Austrian position in general is one of delusion considering the attitudes of the players involved.
Not thinking in the terms which were not quite there, yet, definitely does not mean that someone is dumb. Especially when he is a top diplomat in a state where the notion of a national idea was somewhat tricky. 😉

Of course, by following his theory, he came with some fantastic schemas but perhaps less so than the ideas of Joseph. But, objectively, he was in a lousy position because the Hapsburg Empire had to rely much more on prestige (and his cunning) than on ability to achieve its goals by military force. Strictly speaking, in the terms by which he was operating, the 1st Partition was his smashing success: Austria, by a pure bluff, got the territories bringing a highest income. Fritz also got the best deal in his terms: got strategically important territories allowing him to control most of the Polish trade. CII was a looser in both these areas but she got a great PR for the domestic usage. Not that she could use it effectively due to the Pugachev’s Upraising.
 
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Yep, possible I messed up my cardinal directions. Obviously getting rid of the slave raiding khanate and its associated hordes is needed...

Also, yeah, Austria got pretty sweet deal out of first partition. They got 4X the subjects Prussia got, which even given Prussia was least of the great powers, and 2X what Russia got and Russia's share was also much poorer.
 
Yep, possible I messed up my cardinal directions. Obviously getting rid of the slave raiding khanate and its associated hordes is needed...

Also, yeah, Austria got pretty sweet deal out of first partition. They got 4X the subjects Prussia got, which even given Prussia was least of the great powers, and 2X what Russia got and Russia's share was also much poorer.
So, are we going to cut the Austrian share or to increase the Russian? Personally, I’m tempted with the second option but open to the suggestions. 😉
 
I suggest integrating Austria entirely so that Russia can get its sweet adesserts
Desserts and tokay. You are definitely a political genius. This will solve numerous problems of the coming centuries (a proper planning in a science of diplomacy, as the Austrian diplomat said). 😍
 
Folks I've just got a secret message from Alexmilman confirming what I already suspected. Panin and Kaunitz will come to an agreement with the Prussians over Poland and the Sublime Porte in a meeting in a Moscow McDonalds, arranged by Ronald McDonald himself. The loose ends were tied up in the nearby Pizza Hut.
Kaunitz complained his big Mac had pickles and unfavorably compared it to Viennese pastries. Panin told him he would ask Ronald McDonald for extra fries to compensate. (Kaunitz ended up getting a McFlurry instead).
 
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Folks I've just got a secret message from Alexmilman confirming what I already suspected. Panin and Kaunitz will come to an agreement with the Prussians over Poland and the Sublime Porte in a meeting in a Moscow McDonalds, arranged by Ronald McDonald himself. The loose ends were tied up in the nearby Pizza Hut.
Kaunitz complained his big Mac had pickles and unfavorably compared it to Viennese pastries. Panin told him he would ask Ronald McDonald for extra fries to compensate. (Kaunitz ended up getting a McFlurry instead).
As a whistleblower, you ought to be careful, @alexmilman as a god, might have terrible powers
 
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