Weren't there also complaints about the I Q requirements meaning that the airborne divisions were soaking up men qualified to be officers to serve as NCO's?
Surrender of the 101st Division
- Thread starter Alex Zetsu
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No. From about mid 42 german troops were not capable of going through a British or American Division, around yes but not through, the most successful attacks are Kasserine, which isolates and then beats 2 regiments but is turned back, and the US are led by the only man in History to make Burnside look like a military genius, Fischfang at Anzio which pushes some allied elements back, but then gets pushed back itself with the Elite Veteran Infantry Lehr routing, And 106 ID spread way too thin being, and they they only go through after several days of fighting.
There always are.
The classic requirement for a WW2 US infantryman is above average intelligence and good mechanical skills. Which applies to everything else as well but the other jobs cant be done without it so infantry gets what's left after Armour Artillery Engineers etc. So as soon as you put a volunteer requirement you de facto selecting people who would not otherwise go into the Infantry, Which is also a reason why African Americans ended up as disproportionate number of NCO postwar the US army had recognise the need to educate draftees after WW1 and set up a system but used education as an analogue for intelligence first cut, so undereducated African American draftees went into a system which then educated them but only after they had been slated for the Infantry.
Slim makes the same point about Commando and Airborne forces the act of volunteering takes out the kind of men that would otherwise be the leaders of ordinary infantry to no effect there was nothing WW2 special forces did that was not done by ordinary infantry in Burma, with special training.
Everyone can surrender if circumstances are right. Men of 101st aren’t automaton robots that would fight to the death. Americans in 1944 knew the war is won, they saw their planes in the sky daily uncontested by enemy, they had everything they could want for a war from food to tanks in abundance. Of course some bravado like the famous “Nuts” is warranted. If any other nations was in the same position same would have happened.
If Germans somehow do push the 101st to breaking point it would surrender or disperse
If Germans somehow do push the 101st to breaking point it would surrender or disperse
Yes, they would. But it would take something more than cut off for a few days. They would have to be pretty chewed up and surrounded for it to happen.
Yeah, Loyd Fredendall was a piece of work. Gives nonstandard names like calling infantry "walking boys" and artillery "popguns", made up confusing codes instead of standard military grid locations, spread his men out in penny packets etc. I have little doubt he confused his own troops more than the enemy!
Indeed it would because American troops knew a fact that keeps soldiers going - they will eventually win. But I am primarily responding to dozen or so posts that make it a compete impossibility for Americans to surrender because they’re so bloody special and unique unlike the French surrender monkeys, cowardly Brits, broken German or human wave Russians.
The 106th was a green division spread out over a wide area. It was in the path of the main thrust of the 5th Panzer Army, at the opening of the campaign. 2 of it's regiments were cut off, and forced to surrender. The 101st Airborne was an elite division, in a compact defensive position, tied in to artillery, and armored support. Most of the strongest panzer units had bypassed Bastogne, and moved on toward the Meuse. The situation in Bastogne was serious, but at no time was it near collapse. The division's surrender was highly unlikely, and the idea of McAuliffe panicking, and doing something so irrational were pretty slim. He knew he needed to just hang tight, and help was coming. Besides he'd at least need the permission of 8th Corps commander Troy Middleton to attempt a breakout, and there's no way he'd give it. So McAuliffe would have to do it against orders.
If the 101st had been destroyed the Battle of the Bulge would've played out largely along the same lines, as in the OTL. The legend of the 101 would be set in books, and movies for centuries, like the Texacans at the Alamo. McAuliffe had the bad luck not to be killed, and would go down as a disgraced general who lost his division though incompetence, and a failure of character. A General Court would finish his career, and reputation. He'd be the division artillery commander, who fate granted the chance to lead one of the best divisions in the army, at a critical moment, and failed under pressure. McAuliffe might try to avoid all that with a bullet to the head.
No it's not impossible, just that in this circumstance it seems highly unlikely. Paratroopers of any major nation are drawn from the best men in the army. Their moral is high, as is their tactical competence, they have a never quit attitude, and are used to fighting while surrounded by the enemy. The British 1st Airborne at Arnhem suffered 80% casualties, and never surrendered, those who could broke out. The 101st also wasn't alone, they had 2 armored combat commands, a tank destroyer battalion, remnants of other divisions defending Bastogne with them, and they knew relief forces were coming. They also had hope the weather would clear, allowing the air force to resupply them, and pound the hell out of the Germans.
It would be hard to make a compelling movie about Elsenborne Ridge, because it was mostly an artillery shoot.
Often wondered if the contents of Bastogne don't represent the strongest force commanded by a ground pounder 1 star in all of WWII!!
Don’t forget the most important aspect of an Airborne unit “ being surrounded is their normal modus of operation” and what they are trained to do until linkup with other forces
This gets said a lot, but I do not believe it is compelling.
Bastogne was mostly artillery too!!
There were probably more close range and savage small unit actions in the Elsenborne region, specifically in the run up to the assault on the ridge. Veteran American infantry stopped SS and Wheremacht infantry advances cold, forcing the Germans to spoil their armor clearing the way to assault the ridge. This allowed the Americans to stack all of the artillery north of hell behind Elsenborne.
Bastogne is famous because of the "cut off and surrounded" nature of it, and rightly so.
However, most of the nazi killing was done by artillery and air power, with infantry fighting numerous small actions. Comparatively, the twin villages and road to Elsenborne saw division level infantry brawls that savaged newly minted Volksgrenadier formations as they assaulted dug in 81st airborne positions. The battle even saw green American troops hold up quite well! The fact that it ended with heavy Artillery murdering AFVs does not change this.
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Dig deep enough & you can find Hollywood movies focused on the loss of the Phillipines & Battan. The drama ' Cry Havoc' and the comedy 'Operation Petticoat' to name two.
I kept saying, not Alamo. It's not "Bastogne falls" it's "101st surrenders, that specific division"