Surrender of the 101st Division
- Thread starter Alex Zetsu
- Start date
There is a huge difference between line infantry and elite airborne troops. The 101 being over run and destroyed as a cohesive unit then the survivors surrendering, yup possible, the OTL 101 just throwing in the towel, 'NUTS' that is ASB in my book but YMMV,
Apparently one of the German couriers asked what "Nuts" meant, the reply from one of McAuliffe's aides was "It means the same thing as go to Hell." So, the mass surrender of this Division is rather unrealistic.
Studies cited by a (sadly banned guy) pointed out morale was a contagious thing in lots of wars including WW2. If the 106th can give up, so can the 101st.
That's why stuff like desertion and cowardice in the face of enemy gets you shot.
A lot more men surrendered in the Philippines without being disgraced
marathag
Banned
the 106th wasn't a highly trained elite formation that had seen combat
It was a green unit that arrived in France on December 6th, then moved into Belgium on the 10th
No, not at all. Remember that most of a division was already overrun in the central region without this effect, and the overall battle is still a success due to the American North flank smashing an entire Corp at Elsenborne.
Yes sir, Elsenborne ridge would absolutely get the glory, as they probably should have anyway. Multiple German divisions were stopped cold at the most important portion of the offensive.
Bastogne would be a bloody nose, and with things happening as you describe there would be some feeling of "the officers betrayed the men", but in the post war view losing the 101st AND 99th wouldnt be too much worse then just losing the 99th as happened historically.
If I am being honest though, the only way i see bastogne actually falling (not to skirt your post) is a massed German attack fairly early on. The 101st was an exellent and veteren division, and veteran units held up startlingly well to the ardennes offensive. The 2nd infantry, 101st and 81st airborne etc all performed excellently, only giving ground when absolutely forced.
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One serious medium to short term effect is the effective doubling of American losses during the battle that your scenario entails. The follow on German offensive caused issues for the still stretched American forces as was, and the removal of an entire division does hurt.
Only one execution for desertion in the ETO, none at all for cowardice in the whole American Army since the Civil War at least.
Now put a green division like the 106 into Bastion and yes it might fold but a veteran elite Division like the 101 Nah. These guys had been through Normandy, France Belgium and Holland, They knew what was coming down the road at them and were ready for it mentally and physically. That's why they were sent. Alamo the 101 yes but have them roll over and put their hands up not really. As I suggested if you want Bastogne to fall put a different division in to defend it as your POD, that could work.
Not all divisions are created equally
The 101st was a fully trained up Division with educated officers, experienced NCOs, had drawn from a better quality pool of recruits and had 2 major actions under its belt so could be considered a Veteran unit.
The 106th was the complete opposite, a green unit that had only just arrived from the US and only been in the line for less than a week when the Germans dropped the knut on them. They were surprised by the 'bulge' attack and a far more brittle unit than the 101st and so it proved - although it should be added that it was covering a frontage 4 times what it should have been.
Unlike the 106th the 101st was not 'surprised' it was fully aware of the situation it was in and was not in such a precarious position.
I would also add that the 106th was not fully captured, 50% of its personnel were taken prisoner (comprising 2 of its 3 Infantry regiments) and the Division remnants, its remaining Infantry regiment and supporting units reinforced by a regiment of the 28th Division fought on and its units fought well. The 81st Engineer regiment for example gained a Presidential Unit Citation for its gallant stand on the ridge near St Vith.
So I am afraid the OPs POD does not hold water.
The 101st was a fully trained up Division with educated officers, experienced NCOs, had drawn from a better quality pool of recruits and had 2 major actions under its belt so could be considered a Veteran unit.
The 106th was the complete opposite, a green unit that had only just arrived from the US and only been in the line for less than a week when the Germans dropped the knut on them. They were surprised by the 'bulge' attack and a far more brittle unit than the 101st and so it proved - although it should be added that it was covering a frontage 4 times what it should have been.
Unlike the 106th the 101st was not 'surprised' it was fully aware of the situation it was in and was not in such a precarious position.
I would also add that the 106th was not fully captured, 50% of its personnel were taken prisoner (comprising 2 of its 3 Infantry regiments) and the Division remnants, its remaining Infantry regiment and supporting units reinforced by a regiment of the 28th Division fought on and its units fought well. The 81st Engineer regiment for example gained a Presidential Unit Citation for its gallant stand on the ridge near St Vith.
So I am afraid the OPs POD does not hold water.
106 ID is still fighting at what the Germans needed as their main supply route on 21 December, Now they are surrounded, deprived of their artillery ( most of it) and support echelons- which are the guys that bug out, small hint, mobile bath unit vs panzer spearhead bath unit is supposed to run away. But they only surrender after the failure of relieving forces. - Hint AFTER.
The bags of prisoners at Kasserine are around 3,000 ( compared to the 600k Axis prisoners in Tunis and say 49,000 at Alamein) and thats after Fedendall had refused them permission to retreat when they could have.
The panic in the US forces mainly exists in the head of Bradley, maybe Eisenhower briefly, and the press corps every other senior commander on the allied side, well captain on up really is marching to the sound of the guns or alerting major formations for movement. McAuliffe knows this, if McAuliffe turns into a gibbering idiot, the guy who replaces him will know that ( Radios are a thing) and after all the Brits held Oosterbeek for a week so 3-4 days is not really a problem.
The totally ridiculous proposition is that a guy who jumped into Normandy with a carbine and landed at Market Garden after a 25 year career in the army is going to turn into a coward, ignore his orders and run away, when he has a full infantry division( with extra automatic weapons and bazookas) an outsized ammo supply of APDS ammunition for their organic AT guns, elements of an armoured div combat command, an ad hoc battlegroup based on elements of a second Combat Command and a veteran infantry division, 2 armoured field artillery regiments, two corps level artillery regiments, a tank destroyer battalion, His own air recon unit and two combat engineer battalions dug in around defensible position surrounded by a single infantry regiment, later supported by a second infantry regiment and some very badly handled armour because its cold.
He could probably have defeated ( as in buttfucked defeated) a full Panzercorps attacking him and he knows it.
We think of them elite because they fought through bad times and didn't give up, it's a bit circular.
The 70,000 men stranded in the Philippines were not expected to win given the public awareness of the situation. In December 1944, the war was expected to be over any day. But then again I'm sure a lot of the perception is just governed by wartime propaganda.
It's generally amazing to me how well relatively "green" US troops fought in general, even when these formations had two years of stateside training. All the attention on Bastogne, did take away from the fantastic defense the US gave at the shoulders of the bulge.
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cardcarrier
Banned
The 101st had been chewed up pretty heavily throughout 1944, as much as it's easy to focus on the legitimate American heroes like Richard Winters and the 10 or so linchpin characters of his books who fought and survived from D-Day to VE day; many had been killed or wounded and the division had a high number of green/replacement troops
They where lucky that much of the infantry that was attacking them where fresh call ups for the Germans too. More experienced formations would have been able to route them out and defeat them (obviously still at heavy losses due to the surviving veteran core of the division being excellent troops)
If anything, US forces were too agressive in the face of the enemy. Montgomery's, who had actually lead a fighting retreat or two, most pressing concern after taking control of the north side of the Bulge was stopping US commander tossing wasteful localized counterattacks. Patton's big counterattack to Bastogne was rushed as well.
This. While cut off, Bastogne was only a few miles from American lines and was holding out well against the enemy.
If the Germans had somehow managed to capture Antwerp and cut the Allies in two. it might have surrendered. But Germany did not have the resources to do that. They only got as far as they did because they hit a Green unit, that was too spread out, hard with experienced troops. They were cut off for only a few days, but were well supplied, and close enough for relief as soon as the weather turned better.
(This reminds me, my brother got me this book when he went to the museum at Malmedy. I need to move it up on my reading list...)
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Wrong, it was designed to be an elite unit. Unlike regular infantry you had to volunteer to be part of the 101st, you didn't assign draftees to it like a normal unit. You then had to pass their requirements and go through required training and not 100% were able to go through it but only 1 in 3 and that is after they were allowed to enter training in the first place Those who didn't pass muster were assigned to other units.
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