So Why DID the Western Roman Empire Collapse?

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
I'm really skeptic : late Republic never had to deal with nearly the same ammounts of troubles Late Empire had (with, among other factors, your population shriking by 2/3), not that the idealized picture of a "citizen army" is really true : Rome already used, massively, auxiliaries (a large, very large, part of Cesarian army was made of Celtic and Germanic warrior) and even mercenaries.

In a deterministic way we could say it all comes down to the initial conditions of the universe, but I'm not sure it explains the immediate reasons why it fell. (Explaining 1453 by what happened in the Ist Century BC would be like explaining Hitler rose in power because of the Vandalic conquest of Africa, chronologically-wise)

I'm only saying that the stagnation of Rome begun on the end of the republic. Expansion was completed under Caesar; after that, there were some conquests, but nothing major, nothing decisive, nothing very impressive happened. Under the republic, Rome beat equal Empires: Carthage, the Seleucids, Macedonia, both with a more or less standing and professional army and with massive economic and technological ressources. Under the Princapte, Rome barely managed to defend against Parthia and not even brought off to annihilate the Germanic tribes unter Arminius (which were completly backward peoples without the possibilites of a world empire like Rome). And the accomplishments of Byzantium are... more or less miserable.

In fact, in general terms, Rome was founded unter a king, grew under a republic, gained from the expansion under the Empire and lost its conquest (with some selective restaurations and reconquests, I know).

I think the decisive reasons for this are that Roman expansion was due especially to the competition between the members of the Roman elite, striving for offices and auctoritas gained through military successes; later on there needed the booty of the conquests to pay back their debts, but that is basically the same: if you wanted to be important in Rome, you had to win a war. And the senators knew that new provinces promised new taxes and new land for their latifundia. Even the simple citizens knew that there were going to get a part of the cake through colonies and war loot.

But then came the Principate, and a strong emperor could rule without any expansion. Rome lost his expansionist impetus, Italy was demilitarised, the normal citizen lost his (positive) link to conquest and war (this, granted, happened already when Marius instaured the professional legion as the regular Roman army). But most importantly, the competition within the ruling class was reduced to a strict minimum, since the power of the Senate and his magistrates was abolished, and thus, the main reason for conquest ceased to exist. Rome begun to stagnate - it lost domestic power through civil wars and plagues (social problems couldn't be any more "exported" and "resolved" through war), and meanwhile, the Germanic and Persian enemies grew in strength.

The stagnation became decline, and the decline mutated into downfall. The first part of the Empire to fall was naturally the poorer one, the west, but the East suffered stagnation and decline too, and falled some hundred years later, even if some leftovers (a little regional power centred around Constantionople) continued to exist for one millennium.
 
I'm only saying that the stagnation of Rome begun on the end of the republic. Expansion was completed under Caesar; after that, there were some conquests, but nothing major, nothing decisive, nothing very impressive happened. Under the republic, Rome beat equal Empires: Carthage, the Seleucids, Macedonia, both with a more or less standing and professional army and with massive economic and technological ressources. Under the Princapte, Rome barely managed to defend against Parthia and not even brought off to annihilate the Germanic tribes unter Arminius (which were completly backward peoples without the possibilites of a world empire like Rome). And the accomplishments of Byzantium are... more or less miserable.

In fact, in general terms, Rome was founded unter a king, grew under a republic, gained from the expansion under the Empire and lost its conquest (with some selective restaurations and reconquests, I know).

I think the decisive reasons for this are that Roman expansion was due especially to the competition between the members of the Roman elite, striving for offices and auctoritas gained through military successes; later on there needed the booty of the conquests to pay back their debts, but that is basically the same: if you wanted to be important in Rome, you had to win a war. And the senators knew that new provinces promised new taxes and new land for their latifundia. Even the simple citizens knew that there were going to get a part of the cake through colonies and war loot.

But then came the Principate, and a strong emperor could rule without any expansion. Rome lost his expansionist impetus, Italy was demilitarised, the normal citizen lost his (positive) link to conquest and war (this, granted, happened already when Marius instaured the professional legion as the regular Roman army). But most importantly, the competition within the ruling class was reduced to a strict minimum, since the power of the Senate and his magistrates was abolished, and thus, the main reason for conquest ceased to exist. Rome begun to stagnate - it lost domestic power through civil wars and plagues (social problems couldn't be any more "exported" and "resolved" through war), and meanwhile, the Germanic and Persian enemies grew in strength.

The stagnation became decline, and the decline mutated into downfall. The first part of the Empire to fall was naturally the poorer one, the west, but the East suffered stagnation and decline too, and falled some hundred years later, even if some leftovers (a little regional power centred around Constantionople) continued to exist for one millennium.

This is a hypothesis that appeals to me because of my pre-existing intellectual biases. But I have to say, if the stagnation/decline began with the rise of Augustus, they sure took their sweet time declining.
 
Economic troubles and overreliance on slave labor
Even as Rome was under attack from outside forces, it was also crumbling from within thanks to a severe financial crisis. Constant wars and overspending had significantly lightened imperial coffers, and oppressive taxation and inflation had widened the gap between rich and poor. In the hope of avoiding the taxman, many members of the wealthy classes had even fled to the countryside and set up independent fiefdoms. At the same time, the empire was rocked by a labor deficit. Rome’s economy depended on slaves to till its fields and work as craftsmen, and its military might had traditionally provided a fresh influx of conquered peoples to put to work. But when expansion ground to a halt in the second century, Rome’s supply of slaves and other war treasures began to dry up. A further blow came in the fifth century, when the Vandals claimed North Africa and began disrupting the empire’s trade by prowling the Mediterranean as pirates. With its economy faltering and its commercial and agricultural production in decline, the Empire began to lose its grip on Europe.
http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/8-reasons-why-rome-fell

Inflation and the Fall of the Roman Empire

https://mises.org/library/inflation-and-fall-roman-empire

400 essays for "fall of rome"
http://www.123helpme.com/search.asp?text=fall+of+rome
 
As mentioned in my previous post, this is just wrong, the years of Augustus' reign were those when Rome conquered more new provinces and client kingdoms than any similar period of the roman republic.

And we have discussed in other threads why the expansion of the empire stopped after. Germany was not a rational place to conquered and turn into a new province. It was full of marshes and forests, weakly populated, ...etc. And then there was the conquest of Britain.

There was not much less to conquered that was profitable enough. Except the parthian empire that was another great power.
 
As mentioned in my previous post, this is just wrong, the years of Augustus' reign were those when Rome conquered more new provinces and client kingdoms than any similar period of the roman republic.

And we have discussed in other threads why the expansion of the empire stopped after. Germany was not a rational place to conquered and turn into a new province. It was full of marshes and forests, weakly populated, ...etc. And then there was the conquest of Britain.

There was not much less to conquered that was profitable enough. Except the parthian empire that was another great power.

What about Nubia and expanding further into Africa, into Ethiopia? Various parts of Arabia (there was already a colony at Aden). Rome had quite a presence in trading with southern India, perhaps an attempt at bypassing Parthia. All these would be conquests that if done instead of Britain and an invasion of Germany would pay for themselves in raw materials and exotic goods. If they were successful.

Say whatever expansion I mention that you pick is successful, even for ASB reasons, would the fact that the Romans left Britain and Germany alone give the Roman Empire the resources to blunt or absorb the massive migration of barbarians occurring across Eurasia as the Huns pushed everyone west before them.
 
Migrations were not that massive and were not the problem. You seem not to have read my first post. It post it again.
 
Simple----overspending and lavishly generous welfare created crazy debts that, when unpaid, resulted in a massive crash that saw Rome's population go from 2million to under 20 thousand almost overnight.

Even shorter version: tax-and-spend always fails in the end. ;^)

Draeger has hit on the real, true, infallible way to know the Fall of the Roman Empire: Take the the thing in present politics that concerns you the most and cast it back into the past. For a certain kind of conservative, it's the Roman Empire's big government spending. If you're a Redditor, it'll be the perfidious Christians, who, as everyone knows, you have logically proven to be so stupid that as soon as stupid evil stupid Christians were Emperors, the end was guaranteed. (Please ignore Byzantium, Charlemagne et. al in this formulation). If you're a certain kind of lefty, income inequality did the job. And so on, et cetera. The Fall of the Roman Empire is the canvass that proves that can be used as proof of any political concern in the modern West. That's been the case since Petrarch, and will likely continue.

More prosaically, there are a number of economic organizations that made a whole lot of sense under Augustus, but the natural functioning of them over several centuries ripped the Roman system apart. Throw in the face that large scale slave labor usage by the Roman elite may have sown the seeds of a long population decline. Throw in the real lack of any mechanism of succession with enough legitimacy to challenge the "I have an army so crown me" method that was the real mechanism from the Year of Four Emperors forward. Sprinkle on elites that weren't powerful enough to fight the trends, but were powerful enough to keep anyone else from fighting those trends. The Empire will then fall.

And then of course throw in the fact that by the 300s on forward, a manorial system, less glorious but perhaps more durable, made a better offer to most of the population than the status quo.
 
The roman empire would have fallen far more quickly if the oligarchic republic had not been overthrown by the monarchical regime of the Principate.

It was self-destroying in political competition between oligarchs. And It was sucking the provinces' blood to death.

Rome and Italy needed to be controlled for the sake of the empire. This was the role of the imperial regime.
That's precisely what Pompey was doing without saying it and that's why so many roman nobles hated him : he was the patron of while provinces and was able to have kings obey his will what ever the Senate and consuls wanted.
That's what Caesar understood too and did copycat on Pompey's strategy. And he later proclaimed what he intended to do by making his program public : "tranquillity for Italy (i.e. no more mess in Italy, and especially no more mess in Rome that was not even mentioned since It was the source of the problem that needed to be solved), peace for the provinces (i.e. guarantee that the sheep will be mowed but no longer flayed) and security for the empire."

The years when the roman empire conquered the largest areas of new provinces or client kingdoms were those of the reign of Augustus. The imperial regime brought more efficiency and rationalization.

Concerning the downfall of the WRE, as others previously mentioned, there were many reason sur that cumulated : structural and accidental. None was decisive but the mix of all was the fatal storm.

Among the most important, I would mention :

- excessive outsourcing of the army to germanic foederati. One should never outsourcing the core of its defence. The ERE, on the contrary, saw the danger and led a "de-germanization" of its army,

- the split between west and east RE, without cooperation and support between these 2 parts, in the early 5th century. The east was structurally rocher because It was in the core of world trade roads, while the west was peripheral/ex-centered,

- the extreme difficulty for the WRE to defend its over-stretched frontiers against many small and mobile threats. Just look at the map. This point combined to the previous one already was very complex to handle : you need either more resources or you need a deep structural change to face these new threats efficiently. And this leads to the fourth and last reason that seems important to me.

- since it no longer had the vast resources of the east, the WRE was more or less forced to opt for a much more decentralized organization. The western emperor had become obsolete and unfit to the new situation. This was a very long-run trend that basically lasted for 6 centuries. The WRE split into smaller kingdoms and then these kingdoms split into smaller principalities. This was the age of feudality.

Consider this point retrospectively : when did western Europe emerge from its dark ages and started to build the fondations that would lead to its Renaissance and then world domination ?
When, after centuries-long restructuration through which It became self-sufficiant and more efficiency, it was able, through better military power projection capacitives, to plug itself back solidly on the East's trade roads, in the late 11th century (Venice and other italian perchant republics led the way.

And when the egyptian mameluks became too greedy and the Ottomans made trade too complicated and too costly, the europeans had the genious to create new trade routes enabling to by-pass those too costly or too unfriendly middlemen. And by doing so, they discovered America and completely changed the geography and balance of world economy for several centuries.

By the way, excess welfare ex pense are completely anachronic projection of present ideology 2000 years ago.
 

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
As mentioned in my previous post, this is just wrong, the years of Augustus' reign were those when Rome conquered more new provinces and client kingdoms than any similar period of the roman republic.

No, it's surely not just wrong. Augustus may have conquered some new provinces in the Alps and formed some new client kingdoms in Anatolia: but he didn't fight and win against an equal power. He fought against minor powers, and he even lost against one!!!

Here a thought experiment:
if Rome had still been a free republic in 9 AD, and if Augustus had been running for the consulate in this year, he would have propagated to send 20 legions into Germania to subjugate the tribes - just to win auctoritas and to win the elections.
No Roman politician of the republic could have imposed a non-expansion rule like Augustus' testament - Augustus, as an Emperor, could do it and did it: and 400 years after it (to be fair, he couldn't know it), the same Germani destroyed the western Roman Empire.

And we have discussed in other threads why the expansion of the empire stopped after. Germany was not a rational place to conquered and turn into a new province. It was full of marshes and forests, weakly populated, ...etc. And then there was the conquest of Britain.

Britain and Germania were both no rational choices. But both would have been conquered in the scenario of a hypothetic ongoing competition between Roman politicans (with rules, and without civil war), and history prove that this would have been a god decision, since both provinces were populated by dangerous barbarians.

There was not much less to conquered that was profitable enough. Except the parthian empire that was another great power.

Yes - and Rome knew great powers. Carthage had been a great power, Rome defeated it. Macedonia had been a great power, Rome defeated it. The Seleucid Empire had been a great power, Rome defeated it. There was no reason why Rome shouldn't be able to defeat the Parthians too. I'm not saying that the Romans could eat them in one chunk, but if Hadrian had been forced to win elections against a warmonger like Lusius Quietus, he would certainly have maintained all of Trajan's conquests. And guess what? This would have been good for Rome, since the Parthians and later the Persians were an important threat and Mesopotamia was a very rich region.
 
Ultimately, Rome collapsed because of decisions made early in the history of the Empire (and in some cases, in the Republic) that seemed like good ideas at the time, but became unsustainable when times grew tougher. That's the only reason any power collapses.
 
Sorry but I can just say that things don't work and did not work this way.

Real politics are very different from total war games.

Historical facts are what follows. The man who would have campaigned for the consulate by propagation to spend 20 legions to conquer Germany would have been defeated at the poll !

People were fed-up with over-levying recruits and too long military service. And the idea that one noble gain too much glory for himself did so much piss-off the other high nobles that then would have organized a coalition to have this candidate lise the election.

Just consider the oppositions Pompey and Caesar faced with the Senate and the other nobles' clients.
 
- excessive outsourcing of the army to germanic foederati. One should never outsourcing the core of its defence. The ERE, on the contrary, saw the danger and led a "de-germanization" of its army
It's essentially an a posteriori threat : because Romano-Germans armies eventually get power, we assume that it was the problem.

But it's probably much more a consequence of political troubles in Rome, than their cause : up to the middle of Vth century, use of foederati (that should be distinguished from Barbarian presence in Roman army, that had a long history and was clearly smoother) wasn't automatically synonymous of loss of power; and eventually was necessary giving the constant lack of manpower Romania knew after the great epidemics.

It's really less use of foederati (that was about integrating whole polities in Romania, instead of wasting already limited ressources fighting them all, IIIrd century way) than a general decline by the Vth century (and even there, it's essentially about opportunism : for exemple Franks, while foederati, weren't really that of a threat. But Visigoths were, and the integration of Hispano-Roman or Gallo-Roman nobility may not be totally unrelated)

since it no longer had the vast resources of the east, the WRE was more or less forced to opt for a much more decentralized organization. The western emperor had become obsolete and unfit to the new situation. This was a very long-run trend that basically lasted for 6 centuries. The WRE split into smaller kingdoms and then these kingdoms split into smaller principalities. This was the age of feudality.
There, I'd disagree entierly. Feudality conceptually doesn't appear before late Carolingian times. The whole principle of systematical devolution of power associated with property is unknown in Merovingian Gaul, or Visigothic Spain.

Rather than a long-trend of decentralisation, we rather have more a continuity of Late Imperial structures (up to the alleged germanic co-kingship of Franks or Goths, and that is probably issued from Late imperial origins), adapted to a post-imperial situation but essentially the same than before WRE collapse.

Not that you didn't have a decentralisation of power, but it already existed during the Principate : if something, the relative increase of bureaucracy allowed a more direct interventionism from the emperor.

And not that the west was cut of from trade roads : these really suffered at the Vth century, that's no question (consequences were felt up to Scandinavia), but recovered more quickly that you make it (Dark Age Economics is a must-read) with not only their revival and growingly more important goods but with the appearance of new trade roads (in North Sea, notably).

It was more or less short-lived in Mediterranean Sea, granted, but it's due to the Romano-Persian wars (and decline of important trades or exchanges, such as gold) and first Arab conquests only parachieved this even before they reached Africa.

Rome beat equal Empires: Carthage, the Seleucids, Macedonia
Not equal empires, on several (while admittedly different) grounds.
Carthage was powerful, but lacked deep commitment to military structures that were more or less looking like what existed in the Late Republican era : reign of ambitious, demagogic generals. Eventually, such division didn't really helped.

As for Macedonia or Seleucids, we're talking of quite declining empires, more or less falling apart from assaults on the East or "balkanisation" in Anatolia or Greece. Not little wood, granted, but Rome made quite opportunistic attacks.

Under the Princapte, Rome barely managed to defend against Parthia
Giving that Parthians were never a structural, and vital threat to Romans, I think you're unfair there.
Of course, Late Republican armies were harshly beaten, but we're in the case I mentioned above. Not much commitment to one front, reign of the ambitious and lack of real unified strategy. Eventually Caesar won because he dealed with Gallic city-states and tribal states, not an unified, ressourceful, wealthy and strong empire.

It would be like wondering at someone being able to beat the crap out of a random guy in the street, while considering that his pal not being able to do so against a professional catcher means he sucks; if you pardon me the analogy.

and not even brought off to annihilate the Germanic tribes unter Arminius
USA weren't able to annihilate Viet-Cong and Viet-Nimh, that weren't remotely able to being a world power as America. Does that means that USA are going to collapse because it's no longer crushing natives efficiently?

And the accomplishments of Byzantium are... more or less miserable.
You mean...living on for one millenia, being able to repeal Arab conquests and falling only due to being attacked from every side at once?

You must have pretty much high standards.

In fact, in general terms, Rome was founded unter a king, grew under a republic, gained from the expansion under the Empire and lost its conquest (with some selective restaurations and reconquests, I know).

You're giving, IMO, too much credit to historiographical definitions : for a Roman of the Ist century, there was no difference between Principate and Late Republic...Because there were not much difference, safe that Augustus posed as an arbitle instead of still ongoing civil wars.

The same way, early Republican Rome (at least up to the IIIrd century) was barely distinguishable (even institutionaly) from Royal Rome. What provoked the changes were conquest and redistribution themselves rather than the contrary : by Augustus, you had the feeling that more territory would be too much (not unlike why Chinese dynasties never went into Borg-like conquest).

Some fine tuning was still considered useful, but it's more about fear to over-stretch, rather than being due to a structural decline.

But most importantly, the competition within the ruling class was reduced to a strict minimum, since the power of the Senate and his magistrates was abolished, and thus, the main reason for conquest ceased to exist.
There as well, I think you're giving too much credit to emperors : at least during the Julio-Claudian dynasty, you had repeted attempts to make the Senate a political partner, that failed because of the unability to totally complete monarchism (not in the sense of kingship, but on the antiquity meaning, as in popular strongmanship) with a more aristocratic institution.

If something, the loss of Senatorial power should be put as military-driven emperors as Vespasians or Antonines; with the imperial power being more and more dependent of military abilities and role.

and meanwhile, the Germanic and Persian enemies grew in strength.
The unability to Persians (and even more Germans) to pose an existential threat before the...what Vth century would point otherwise. While Romans were able to ravage the hell out of Mesopotamia (a critically strategic region for Persians) regularily, Parthians never went even remotly close to do the same on Roman core regions.

As for Germans, as disruptive the IIIrd century raids were (and it's not due to a military problem only, rather the consequences of deadly epidemics happening in the same time), they never really went the way of destroying the imperium (admittedly, de facto dividing it up).
If something, they grew more and more integrated to Rome, rather than forging empire (You can safely date most of Vth Germanic peoples ethnogenesis from this period).

The stagnation became decline, and the decline mutated into downfall.
I don't think that a decline going on for five centuries can be called a decline at all. It's simply handwaving too much immediate factors that happened in the same time than the political collapse (already mentioned above), and eventually doesn't explain anything historically because not being directly tied to the historical conditions of this collapse.
 
People were fed-up with over-levying recruits and too long military service. And the idea that one noble gain too much glory for himself did so much piss-off the other high nobles that then would have organized a coalition to have this candidate lise the election.
This, so much this.

There's a reason why monarchical idea became really popular in Rome by the Late Republic : people had simply enough of unending civil wars, political murders, increasing economical pressure...

Augustus really fit in popular expectations, as did most of its immediate successors : it's a recurrent feature of Ist century emperors, being called "popular" and "democratic" even by the worst chroniclers).

Calling Late Republic a "free republic", is really not understanding what it was.

Provincial elites, while having a growingly more important role, deprived of political role; increasing pauperisation and clientelisation of Italian (Romans or Latin citizens); slow desintegration of the municipal structures (while they were at the core of Roman and antique society) due to a more and more harsh military power.

We're far, far more close to a cliché South American country being torn apart by juntas and revolts than the idealised liberal regime some people still try to paint. (Generally, it comes from a conservative stance, whatever in America or Europe. Politicized history is worst history)
 

TinyTartar

Banned
I think that what ultimately doomed the Empire's ability to survive was the loss of Africa. Losing Africa meant that the financial system of the Dominate, built up over hundreds of years of trade balances and imbalances in the Mediterranean as well as the failure of Imperial Tax Collection as time went on, meant that Western Rome NEEDED Africa to cover its expenses.

Barbarization of the army was an issue, however, there is no reason why the new tribes could not be assimilated like the old ones over time, however, time of course was needed and not granted.

The military situation was not as hopeless as you may think. The Late Roman Army was still a formidable force when unified and supported. Even the 406 Rhine Crossing could have been headed off and prevented had the Romans not needed armies down in Italy.

The Huns of course probably permanently broke the de facto sovereignty Rome had over the fleeing tribes, but Rome, living on in a Mediterranean rump state, could have certainly survived had the wealth of Africa been kept.

And who knows? If they live on to the point of Justinian, things could have gotten back to 3rd century levels with the right kind of organization and rebuilding. Apparently, even Brittania, abandoned in 410 AD, still was reported to have had a Roman identity in the 530s.
 

Spengler

Banned
I'm only saying that the stagnation of Rome begun on the end of the republic. Expansion was completed under Caesar; after that, there were some conquests, but nothing major, nothing decisive, nothing very impressive happened. Under the republic, Rome beat equal Empires: Carthage, the Seleucids, Macedonia, both with a more or less standing and professional army and with massive economic and technological ressources. Under the Princapte, Rome barely managed to defend against Parthia and not even brought off to annihilate the Germanic tribes unter Arminius (which were completly backward peoples without the possibilites of a world empire like Rome). And the accomplishments of Byzantium are... more or less miserable.

In fact, in general terms, Rome was founded unter a king, grew under a republic, gained from the expansion under the Empire and lost its conquest (with some selective restaurations and reconquests, I know).

I think the decisive reasons for this are that Roman expansion was due especially to the competition between the members of the Roman elite, striving for offices and auctoritas gained through military successes; later on there needed the booty of the conquests to pay back their debts, but that is basically the same: if you wanted to be important in Rome, you had to win a war. And the senators knew that new provinces promised new taxes and new land for their latifundia. Even the simple citizens knew that there were going to get a part of the cake through colonies and war loot.

But then came the Principate, and a strong emperor could rule without any expansion. Rome lost his expansionist impetus, Italy was demilitarised, the normal citizen lost his (positive) link to conquest and war (this, granted, happened already when Marius instaured the professional legion as the regular Roman army). But most importantly, the competition within the ruling class was reduced to a strict minimum, since the power of the Senate and his magistrates was abolished, and thus, the main reason for conquest ceased to exist. Rome begun to stagnate - it lost domestic power through civil wars and plagues (social problems couldn't be any more "exported" and "resolved" through war), and meanwhile, the Germanic and Persian enemies grew in strength.

The stagnation became decline, and the decline mutated into downfall. The first part of the Empire to fall was naturally the poorer one, the west, but the East suffered stagnation and decline too, and falled some hundred years later, even if some leftovers (a little regional power centred around Constantionople) continued to exist for one millennium.
You wouldn't be a fan of my namesake would you?


Top whomever is quoting that Mises article, throughout much of the late republic and the empire was inflation a constant, it only became a problem once the political crises started and they had to over expand the army to much and expand its pay to much. LVM is worse than Marx in trying to explain history, except replace inflation with class conflict.



This is the big one, the loss of North Africa the Carthaginian territories pretty much killed WRE, so much of its economy depended on the place and the vandals invasion really made its complete collapse inevitable, being that the place was the bread basket of the WRE.
 
Last edited:
Barbarization of the army was an issue, however, there is no reason why the new tribes could not be assimilated like the old ones over time, however, time of course was needed and not granted.
Thing is, they were assimilated IOTL, would it be only because their ethnogenesis was made along Romanized lines. Cultural and political assimilation alike, while we're talking of an opposition between Roman citizenship identity and Barbarian identity : roughly (while the situation was clearly more complex would it be only trough sheer Roman prejudice from one hand, and Vth century political shifts from the other), was Barbarian (politically) who obeyed and was tied up to a Barbarian king.

You were Goth because you followed a Gothic king, not because you were Roman or Germanic, if the distinction was that important for foederati : I'd like to mention a well known IVth century tomb of a frankish warrior in Pannonia, or rather the text on it.

Francus ego cives, romanus miles in armis
I'm a Frankish citizen, roman soldier in arms.
 
You wouldn't be a fan of my namesake would you?

I recently finished The Decline of the West. I disagree with Spengler, a lot, but I have to admit it was one of the most interesting and thought-provoking books I've read recently.
 

TinyTartar

Banned
Thing is, they were assimilated IOTL, would it be only because their ethnogenesis was made along Romanized lines. Cultural and political assimilation alike, while we're talking of an opposition between Roman citizenship identity and Barbarian identity : roughly (while the situation was clearly more complex would it be only trough sheer Roman prejudice from one hand, and Vth century political shifts from the other), was Barbarian (politically) who obeyed and was tied up to a Barbarian king.

You were Goth because you followed a Gothic king, not because you were Roman or Germanic, if the distinction was that important for foederati : I'd like to mention a well known IVth century tomb of a frankish warrior in Pannonia, or rather the text on it.

Francus ego cives, romanus miles in armis
I'm a Frankish citizen, roman soldier in arms.

What I was generally referring to was not how the tribes saw themselves in the short term, which may have been more Roman or less Roman individually per tribe (the Vandals likely being the least Romanized, but maybe not all the time), but rather having a situation happen like with the Ubii, who started out as Caesar's personal cavalry, and over time of living on the Roman side of the frontier, became Roman to the point of almost full assimilation, or like with the Galatians in Asia Minor (although the centuries of Hellenic contact did not hurt matters, either).

This would take a few generations, and might require a long peace, which would be hard to manage, but if it could be done enough as to the point of the military identification with Rome becoming a political and cultural one, this would be less and less of a problem.
 
(the Vandals likely being the least Romanized, but maybe not all the time)
That's rather gratious, I must say. Every clue points them as no less romanized than Ostrogoths or Visigoths.

but rather having a situation happen like with the Ubii
With an important difference : Ubii were roman allies, within the province Gaul and eventually being given citizenship rights; when Foederati peoples were outside this political identity as altough they could obtain roman citizenship it was often at the loss of their Barbarian citizenship, while Ubii could be both (as many Gallic people after the conquest).

Being on the edge of Romania, within a center of romanisation (their new capital was a regional hub created out of a secondary oppidum).

You won't have a similar situation there, even with time. At best, you'd have a Barbaro-Roman identity appearing out of it preserving the "personality of identity"
It's not about time, but about initial really different situations, even in the long run (and I really mean long, much longer than Ubian political integration*) it could end the same.

*Not unlike you had a continental Saxon identity in Gaul up to the IXth century; or a Hunnic identity along Danube during a good part of Late Antiquity.
 
Top