Truly LXEagle, you're not bringing anything serious into this conversation. Either chill or reconsider your approach, please.
Romans cross the Atlantic
- Thread starter LXEagle
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Truly LXEagle, you're not bringing anything serious into this conversation. Either chill or reconsider your approach, please.
Calm down.
You have asked a series of questions. You haven't liked the answers because they do not fit into your preconceived hopes for this thread.
That sucks.
Doesn't give you the okay to insult.
I'm not sure why this thread should get so antagonistic.
Neither Herzen nor I have actually said no. We've just said that it can't happen easily, and if you wanted to make something like this happen, you'd have to go about it carefully and effectively.
It's not like some Roman would just jump in a ship and sail off to America.
It's not like the Romans would just decide to build a super-sailing ship, that was within their technology, and decide to sail randomly until they hopefully hit land... or sank from misadventure... or starved to death... or capsized in a storm....
And even if they did manage to get out there, it's not like they'd be able to sail back.
And even if you had a two way expedition, there's no likelihood of regular traffic....
Unless you acted like a real alt-historian, and posited a POD where there was a motivation for Romans or a Satellite culture to develop some sort of blue water capacity, where they would accumulate enough technology, enough skill and enough lore over seamanship and ocean and wind currents that they'd have the ability to consistently survive the voyage and return.
Now, that's not impossible. It's difficult, but it's not impossible.
But it's not a post-facto thing. The Romans don't know about the new world, can't know about the new world, have no idea of any advantages or opportunities. So if there's any motivation, then it has to be extremely local.
Neither Herzen nor I have actually said no. We've just said that it can't happen easily, and if you wanted to make something like this happen, you'd have to go about it carefully and effectively.
It's not like some Roman would just jump in a ship and sail off to America.
It's not like the Romans would just decide to build a super-sailing ship, that was within their technology, and decide to sail randomly until they hopefully hit land... or sank from misadventure... or starved to death... or capsized in a storm....
And even if they did manage to get out there, it's not like they'd be able to sail back.
And even if you had a two way expedition, there's no likelihood of regular traffic....
Unless you acted like a real alt-historian, and posited a POD where there was a motivation for Romans or a Satellite culture to develop some sort of blue water capacity, where they would accumulate enough technology, enough skill and enough lore over seamanship and ocean and wind currents that they'd have the ability to consistently survive the voyage and return.
Now, that's not impossible. It's difficult, but it's not impossible.
But it's not a post-facto thing. The Romans don't know about the new world, can't know about the new world, have no idea of any advantages or opportunities. So if there's any motivation, then it has to be extremely local.
ctayfor
Monthly Donor
So now we go onto the subject of potatoes?
Seriously, the only way I can see the Romans ending up across the Atlantic is in some earlier iteration of the Cabral expedition, heading down the coast of Africa and being blown across to Brazil in a storm. That would only be likely to happen if there were expeditions coasting down Africa's west coast at least on a semi-regular basis. Now we have to have a plausible reason for that (King Solomon's Mines anyone?)
Incidentally, the grain ships that took Egyptian and other North African grain to Italy would have been quite capable of surviving Atlantic voyages.
Seriously, the only way I can see the Romans ending up across the Atlantic is in some earlier iteration of the Cabral expedition, heading down the coast of Africa and being blown across to Brazil in a storm. That would only be likely to happen if there were expeditions coasting down Africa's west coast at least on a semi-regular basis. Now we have to have a plausible reason for that (King Solomon's Mines anyone?)
Incidentally, the grain ships that took Egyptian and other North African grain to Italy would have been quite capable of surviving Atlantic voyages.
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So now we go onto the subject of potatoes?
Seriously, the only way I can see the Romans ending up across the Atlantic is in some earlier iteration of the Cabral expedition, heading down the coast of Africa and being blown across to Brazil in a storm. That would only be likely to happen if there were expeditions coasting down Africa's west coast at least on a semi-regular basis. Now we have to have a plausible reason for that (King Solomon's Mines anyone?)
Incidentally, the grain ships that took Egyptian and other North African grain to Italy would have been quite capable of surviving Atlantic voyages.
Nah. Coastal hugging is not bad. But there needs to be some incentive or motivation for deep water sailing. My thinking is that the Macaronesian Islands need to be in it somehow. Maybe as penal colonies, or luxury condos or something.
But there has to be the incentive to settle the near ones, discover and settle the further ones. That creates a skill base, and it also fosters the idea that there might be more islands out there....
Why do you say that? They were large ships for their day to be sure but was their construction and rigging up to it? I'd love to see some documentation behind this. Not that they were used in the Atlantic anyway....
As for "King Solomon's Mines", isn't the consensus that they were OTL in what is now Jordan or Arabia? Certainly nothing to do with the Atlantic coast of Africa.
We probably should leave H. Rider Haggard out of the discussion...
Blown by a storm to Brazil, if in the right place at the right time? Possible. Probable they don't ever make it back. More likely the ship (or parts thereof) make it to the Brazilian coast, but with no survivors, who have since starved or died of thirst. Dead men tell no tales...no tales of new lands with untold riches,etc. that might entice.
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Well there were ancient expeditions around Africa OTL : Nechao's expedition, Hannon,...
And still nobody discovered Brazil in the way, or if it was, actually reported it.
It's one of the reasons that make me thinks such accidental discovery isn't bound to happen in the region. Of course, more expeditions goes that way, more chances.
But if Romans really wanted to go deeper in Africa, it would have make more sense to try by Read Sea that was actually quite well known, or even by land (they did made expedition southern of their african provinces, without much result).
The ships? Maybe. Their crew, err...
As I pointed above, their speed was relativly limited (again, I assume we rule out galleys as definitely too unlikely) and they would have needed more than one month of trip in the best and constant situations.
I won't be surprised to see wrecked ships in American coast, really. But the travel would have been too random to have a definitive outcome.
There was no impetus for them to look for new lands..
The accidental re-direction of a Phoenician fleet to Brazil is the most plausible approach I think. but the ability of that fleet to return to the Med is problematic at best. resulting in an interesting, but inconsequential pre-columbian exchange, at least for Europe. (when did smallpox appear in Europe anyway?).
Smallpox is generally considered, without definitive proof, to have been carried from China to Europe as a consequence of Arab conquests. It is possible, though, that it appeared earlier in the VI century.
Measles, on the other hand, was present during the Roman times (Antoinine Plague was maybe a measles though chickenpow is another possibility) and killed as much people than Black Death in its time (proportionally speaking).
That said, an early *columbine exchange would have required an actual exchange between populations : it's not a given but depending on the places these ancient ships arrive and if their crew survive, they could as well find no one around.
At the time of Hanno's expedition (the most likely period for such a thing, with ships being separated from others), Maya civilisation was still into pre-cassical period. It could have important changes or not at all.
One of the goals of the expedition was mainly to recognize the african coast with the hope of founding later colonies, and they would have likely melt with local population.
Rather than mettallurgy (not everyone know how to melt, to mine, where are the good spots, without possibly the good tools), I would see social changes : coins, by exemple or possibly navigation (after all they were sailors), making Mayas possibly more maritime-focused than OTL.
Mine too, the subject of pre-Columbian contact with the Americas is something I have been interested in ever since I first found out about Leif Erickson's settlement when I was a kid.
One thing to keep in mind is that it is entirely possible there were a few ships that were blown off course and they crashed in the Americas where the crewmen died and the ship rotted but without anybody going back nobody ever knew.
That is the big problem with this topic. There is anecdotal evidence and all sorts of rumors for a lot but no proof of any sustained two way contact outside of what we know of OTL.
Ultimately? Absorption into the local culture. Probably without leaving much in the way of tangible traces behind.
Although, If we're lucky, a bronze age earlier, beginning in the Atlantic side of S. America (as opposed to the slower and later diffusion of bronze age tech from the Andean highlands that started with the Moche (around 100AD). That is assuming the right kind of knowledge comes along for the ride with the errant Phoenicians.
continuing to play with this idea...lets assume that the Phoenicians had several ships that had foundered on the Brazilian coast. Husbanding their resources they were able to send ships north into the Caribbean. i.e. the Maya sphere, nascent as it might have been.
Aside from the technological advances they might have shared there would also be knowledge of the " old world".
It seems to me that the implications could be quite significant.
Aside from the technological advances they might have shared there would also be knowledge of the " old world".
It seems to me that the implications could be quite significant.
Aw geez.
Okay, here goes - a model for anyone who wants to pick it up and run with it.
The genus Rubiaceae, also known as the coffee family, originates in the Eocene, probably about 45 or 50 million years ago, and eventually achieved worldwide distribution, mostly in the tropics.
Coffee itself probably originated in Madagascar. There are seven discovered species of Coffee plant there, which seems to be more genetic diversity than the rest of the world put together.
We can assume that Coffee plants somehow crossed the Indian Ocean divide, and ended up in the Kenyan and Ethiopian highlands. However, they spread across Africa. Two species were found in the Cameroons highlands. There's a Liberian species which is fairly economically lucrative.
Now, how do Coffee plants manage to jump from Madagascar to Africa, to get from the eastern highlands to Liberia. I'm assuming the mechanism of transmission in bird guts. Maybe not common, but it happens often enough to jump and establish viable populations.
So your POD is this: Coffee Liberica is an established plant growing on or around the lower west coast of Africa, in Liberia and presumably neighboring states. It ends up in the guts of migratory birds who end up dropping it on the Cape Verde Islands, where it takes root and thrives. Migratory bird populations nesting on the Macaronesian islands transmit it to the Azores, the Canaries and the Madeiras, where local conditions and lack of predators allow it to take root. The coast of Africa around this region is much too dry for coffee plants. So what we get are isolated populations of coffee plants all over the Macaronesian islands.
BUTTERFLY NET!
Now, let's take the Canary Islands. The Canary Islands are nice. Seven major islands, a bunch of small islets, roughly 3000 square miles, the closest island is 60 miles off the African coast. It's down just between Morocco and the former Spanish Sahara (Sahel?)?
From what we know of antiquity, the Islands were first visited by the Phoenicians, roughly 500 BCE, then by the Greeks and Romans. It was relatively well known, but no one gave much of a shit about the place OTL. Sure it was nice, but it seems to have been uninhabited or mostly uninhabited and contained nothing of interest or value.
Well this time, in the ATL, there's.... COFFEE!!! That's right. Caffeine, the wonder drug, picks you up swings you around, associated with wakefulness, energy, enthusiasm, and in strong doses mania and giddiness. It's gooooooood shit!!!!
So one of these Phoenicians, many Hano the Navigator himself, he puts in that one of the Canaries to reprovision, when the beans are in season. His sailors are hunting rats and iguana's, stocking up on meat, fresh water, collecting berries and seeds. Well, it turns out some of these seeds, the coffee beans have quite a kick to them. A thrilling wonderful kick.
Hanno finishes his voyages. The word gets around. Other sailors in the area make a point of picking up coffee beans, maybe even making a special trip. Coffee becomes a small scale but valuable trade commodity. Enough to justify making regular tricks.
Now, here's the thing with coffee liberica. It's 'infrastructure' type coffee. We're not talking bushes here. Liberica produces 20 meter trees. That's about sixty, seventy feet. You'll get a real good crop of beans from one of those trees. But you want my thinking... it takes a long time to grow a seventy foot tree, particularly at the outer peripheries of the plant's range. Way too slow to cultivate like you would a normal crop.
So basically, the Canary harvests are simple exploitation. Go out, hunt around, find a tree or grove and harvest. But we're not talking cultivation or management. Initially, you might see short sighted arseholes cutting down the trees to collect the beans. But the smarter in the bunch realize if they don't cut the trees down, they can show up at the right time every year to collect. And of course, the way to increase harvest is to just keep finding new trees.
So the Island group gets pretty explored. Maybe even some settlement. After all, these are pretty valuable beans, want to keep an eye on them. There's the seeds (excuse the pun) of a blue water sailing capacity emerging there.
Now, fast forward just a little bit. There's a thriving coffee economy, maybe even coffee arboculture based around the canaries. It's valuable as hell. Demand always outruns supply. Then somewhere say between 100 BCE and 70 CE, the Madeira's are discovered. In OTL it was most likely around 70 CE. But given the increased and valuable traffic back and forth from the Canaries in this timeline, we can reasonably move things up further and faster.
Now the Madeiras aren't quite so promising. Maybe 800 square miles in all. Two principle islands. Now, its about 280 miles from the African coast. About 500 miles from Europe. Maybe two or three hundred miles due north of the Canaries.
And low and behold, there's a population of Coffee Liberica trees there, just waiting to be harvested. Probably not a great population, this really would be at the outer edges of the plants tolerance. But there's a huge demand for Coffee, almost worth its weight in gold and all that. So the discovery of a second set of coffee islands, which might represent a significant increase in production from 10 to 30% (depending), is a big, big thing. Also, an even bigger thing - it's an unclaimed set of coffee islands. A wonderful resource. So lots and lots of interest.
Now it starts to get cool. You have have seafarers dancing 60 miles out into deep water, bouncing around the islands of the Canaries. Then you've got them 280 miles out, booting around the Madeiras. Maybe communicating regularly back and forth with the Canaries. Or shipping directly over to Europe - open water journeys of 250 to 500 miles. Impressive.
Now, that's where you're starting to develop blue water skills. A 500 mile trip is no great shakes, America is still thousands of miles away. But when you're making 200 or 300 or 500 mile blue water trips, you start to get to know the currents, the winds, the seasons, etc. Your territory is local, but you're getting a picture window of the local that you can generalize from... after all, those currents and winds are going somewhere.
But the really mind blowing thing here is an intellectual leap. "There are other islands" The Canaries might have just been their little one off. One is a special number.
But two is an unreal number. The thing with two, is that once you get to two, then you get to the possibility of three or four, or all kinds of other numbers. Once you get past the notion that something is not unique, singular, a category of 'one' - and are coming to grips with the idea that there could be more than the one... like two... that opens the door.
And in this case, that door opens onto a gold mine. Because coffee is incredibly valuable, and incredibly hard to get a hold of. If coffee is not just confined to the canaries, but grows in another place... it might grow in other places.
There's now an incentive to start looking. To sail down around the coast of Africa, seeing if there's more coffee plants there. There might be. They'd have to get pretty damned far to get to Liberia.
But before Liberia, there's a good chance of getting to the Cape Verde Islands. These are 350 miles off the coast of Africa. About 10 islands. Fifteen hundred square miles. Would the coast huggers find the Cape Verdes.... well, these are guys who have a proto-deep sea tradition, and are used to making 250 and 500 mile voyages, and they're a long way out. And they're looking for islands or signs of islands, because, after all, the coffee trees only grow on islands so far.
Anyway, between the Canaries, the Madeiras, the Cape Verdes and possibly some harvest on the African coast, there's a pretty thriving and lucrative coffee trade going on. One that is developing a reasonable knowledge of coastal geography, and offshore winds, currents and seasons.
You with me so far.
And here's the big thing. Exploration, and luck, have paid off. There's a set of brass rings that have been collected. Sure, there's lots of failures, unlucky sods who found nothing, lost their shirts, or died swallowing their tongues at sea. But you know how it is - the same urge that keeps people gambling would keep people on the lookout.
Now, the Azores. About a thousand square miles, the islands are scattered over about 350 miles width. It's about 850 miles west of Portugal. 950 south west of Morocco. This would be our biggest jump - but we are now looking at coastal voyages of maybe 1500 or 2000 miles, and several areas of deep sea crossings between 250 and 550 miles. So it's a jump, but not an umanageable one.
So, within this timeframe, between say 100 BCE and 200 CE, you have a thriving set of island economies going devoted to a very lucrative commodity, with an evolved tradition not only of seacraft but sea knowledge, and a culture which is open to the idea that there could be more islands or more value out there.
Now that, is the sort of sea tradition in which a lost or blundering or storm driven ship could end up surviving all the way to a landing in the new world. And that's the sort of sea tradition where they'd have a rats ass chance of finding their way home. And that's the sort of sea tradition where the local cultures might see enough potential and opportunity to try and make something of it.
So there you go. Anyone want to use this as the skeleton for something, or the basis to flesh out into a timeline, go right ahead. Just give me an acknowledgement.
Okay, here goes - a model for anyone who wants to pick it up and run with it.
The genus Rubiaceae, also known as the coffee family, originates in the Eocene, probably about 45 or 50 million years ago, and eventually achieved worldwide distribution, mostly in the tropics.
Coffee itself probably originated in Madagascar. There are seven discovered species of Coffee plant there, which seems to be more genetic diversity than the rest of the world put together.
We can assume that Coffee plants somehow crossed the Indian Ocean divide, and ended up in the Kenyan and Ethiopian highlands. However, they spread across Africa. Two species were found in the Cameroons highlands. There's a Liberian species which is fairly economically lucrative.
Now, how do Coffee plants manage to jump from Madagascar to Africa, to get from the eastern highlands to Liberia. I'm assuming the mechanism of transmission in bird guts. Maybe not common, but it happens often enough to jump and establish viable populations.
So your POD is this: Coffee Liberica is an established plant growing on or around the lower west coast of Africa, in Liberia and presumably neighboring states. It ends up in the guts of migratory birds who end up dropping it on the Cape Verde Islands, where it takes root and thrives. Migratory bird populations nesting on the Macaronesian islands transmit it to the Azores, the Canaries and the Madeiras, where local conditions and lack of predators allow it to take root. The coast of Africa around this region is much too dry for coffee plants. So what we get are isolated populations of coffee plants all over the Macaronesian islands.
BUTTERFLY NET!
Now, let's take the Canary Islands. The Canary Islands are nice. Seven major islands, a bunch of small islets, roughly 3000 square miles, the closest island is 60 miles off the African coast. It's down just between Morocco and the former Spanish Sahara (Sahel?)?
From what we know of antiquity, the Islands were first visited by the Phoenicians, roughly 500 BCE, then by the Greeks and Romans. It was relatively well known, but no one gave much of a shit about the place OTL. Sure it was nice, but it seems to have been uninhabited or mostly uninhabited and contained nothing of interest or value.
Well this time, in the ATL, there's.... COFFEE!!! That's right. Caffeine, the wonder drug, picks you up swings you around, associated with wakefulness, energy, enthusiasm, and in strong doses mania and giddiness. It's gooooooood shit!!!!
So one of these Phoenicians, many Hano the Navigator himself, he puts in that one of the Canaries to reprovision, when the beans are in season. His sailors are hunting rats and iguana's, stocking up on meat, fresh water, collecting berries and seeds. Well, it turns out some of these seeds, the coffee beans have quite a kick to them. A thrilling wonderful kick.
Hanno finishes his voyages. The word gets around. Other sailors in the area make a point of picking up coffee beans, maybe even making a special trip. Coffee becomes a small scale but valuable trade commodity. Enough to justify making regular tricks.
Now, here's the thing with coffee liberica. It's 'infrastructure' type coffee. We're not talking bushes here. Liberica produces 20 meter trees. That's about sixty, seventy feet. You'll get a real good crop of beans from one of those trees. But you want my thinking... it takes a long time to grow a seventy foot tree, particularly at the outer peripheries of the plant's range. Way too slow to cultivate like you would a normal crop.
So basically, the Canary harvests are simple exploitation. Go out, hunt around, find a tree or grove and harvest. But we're not talking cultivation or management. Initially, you might see short sighted arseholes cutting down the trees to collect the beans. But the smarter in the bunch realize if they don't cut the trees down, they can show up at the right time every year to collect. And of course, the way to increase harvest is to just keep finding new trees.
So the Island group gets pretty explored. Maybe even some settlement. After all, these are pretty valuable beans, want to keep an eye on them. There's the seeds (excuse the pun) of a blue water sailing capacity emerging there.
Now, fast forward just a little bit. There's a thriving coffee economy, maybe even coffee arboculture based around the canaries. It's valuable as hell. Demand always outruns supply. Then somewhere say between 100 BCE and 70 CE, the Madeira's are discovered. In OTL it was most likely around 70 CE. But given the increased and valuable traffic back and forth from the Canaries in this timeline, we can reasonably move things up further and faster.
Now the Madeiras aren't quite so promising. Maybe 800 square miles in all. Two principle islands. Now, its about 280 miles from the African coast. About 500 miles from Europe. Maybe two or three hundred miles due north of the Canaries.
And low and behold, there's a population of Coffee Liberica trees there, just waiting to be harvested. Probably not a great population, this really would be at the outer edges of the plants tolerance. But there's a huge demand for Coffee, almost worth its weight in gold and all that. So the discovery of a second set of coffee islands, which might represent a significant increase in production from 10 to 30% (depending), is a big, big thing. Also, an even bigger thing - it's an unclaimed set of coffee islands. A wonderful resource. So lots and lots of interest.
Now it starts to get cool. You have have seafarers dancing 60 miles out into deep water, bouncing around the islands of the Canaries. Then you've got them 280 miles out, booting around the Madeiras. Maybe communicating regularly back and forth with the Canaries. Or shipping directly over to Europe - open water journeys of 250 to 500 miles. Impressive.
Now, that's where you're starting to develop blue water skills. A 500 mile trip is no great shakes, America is still thousands of miles away. But when you're making 200 or 300 or 500 mile blue water trips, you start to get to know the currents, the winds, the seasons, etc. Your territory is local, but you're getting a picture window of the local that you can generalize from... after all, those currents and winds are going somewhere.
But the really mind blowing thing here is an intellectual leap. "There are other islands" The Canaries might have just been their little one off. One is a special number.
But two is an unreal number. The thing with two, is that once you get to two, then you get to the possibility of three or four, or all kinds of other numbers. Once you get past the notion that something is not unique, singular, a category of 'one' - and are coming to grips with the idea that there could be more than the one... like two... that opens the door.
And in this case, that door opens onto a gold mine. Because coffee is incredibly valuable, and incredibly hard to get a hold of. If coffee is not just confined to the canaries, but grows in another place... it might grow in other places.
There's now an incentive to start looking. To sail down around the coast of Africa, seeing if there's more coffee plants there. There might be. They'd have to get pretty damned far to get to Liberia.
But before Liberia, there's a good chance of getting to the Cape Verde Islands. These are 350 miles off the coast of Africa. About 10 islands. Fifteen hundred square miles. Would the coast huggers find the Cape Verdes.... well, these are guys who have a proto-deep sea tradition, and are used to making 250 and 500 mile voyages, and they're a long way out. And they're looking for islands or signs of islands, because, after all, the coffee trees only grow on islands so far.
Anyway, between the Canaries, the Madeiras, the Cape Verdes and possibly some harvest on the African coast, there's a pretty thriving and lucrative coffee trade going on. One that is developing a reasonable knowledge of coastal geography, and offshore winds, currents and seasons.
You with me so far.
And here's the big thing. Exploration, and luck, have paid off. There's a set of brass rings that have been collected. Sure, there's lots of failures, unlucky sods who found nothing, lost their shirts, or died swallowing their tongues at sea. But you know how it is - the same urge that keeps people gambling would keep people on the lookout.
Now, the Azores. About a thousand square miles, the islands are scattered over about 350 miles width. It's about 850 miles west of Portugal. 950 south west of Morocco. This would be our biggest jump - but we are now looking at coastal voyages of maybe 1500 or 2000 miles, and several areas of deep sea crossings between 250 and 550 miles. So it's a jump, but not an umanageable one.
So, within this timeframe, between say 100 BCE and 200 CE, you have a thriving set of island economies going devoted to a very lucrative commodity, with an evolved tradition not only of seacraft but sea knowledge, and a culture which is open to the idea that there could be more islands or more value out there.
Now that, is the sort of sea tradition in which a lost or blundering or storm driven ship could end up surviving all the way to a landing in the new world. And that's the sort of sea tradition where they'd have a rats ass chance of finding their way home. And that's the sort of sea tradition where the local cultures might see enough potential and opportunity to try and make something of it.
So there you go. Anyone want to use this as the skeleton for something, or the basis to flesh out into a timeline, go right ahead. Just give me an acknowledgement.
Mmm, that's interesting but I'm a bit unconvinced.
As you said, coffee was found in Ethiopia (but not only, in Arabia as well) and nobody really minded up to at the very best the Xth century while one major trade road passed just trough there.
I understand that this variety could be more economically lucrative, but if nobody minded in first place, why should they because they found it on a lost archipelago?
As you said, coffee was found in Ethiopia (but not only, in Arabia as well) and nobody really minded up to at the very best the Xth century while one major trade road passed just trough there.
I understand that this variety could be more economically lucrative, but if nobody minded in first place, why should they because they found it on a lost archipelago?
I don't mean to be a dick, but not really buying into it. Hell, even in 1492, when Colombus took a fleet of three ships, he lost one on the way.
As Herzen and I keep pointing out, Phoenician or Roman ships were basically mediteranean travellers or coast huggers. It's profoundly far fetched but vaguely possible that even one very unlucky ship might have made it out there. It's ASB to think that the Phoenicians or Romans would have launched a fleet in a place far out enough that they could have gotten caught in storms or currents or sheer dumb luckery that they'd get across the Ocean. And its double ASB to suggest that the survivors of the unlucky fleet would then pony up, and sail 5000 miles into the Mayan heartland.
Look, my point in the previous post was that if you want to have Ancient contact with the America's, then you can do it. But you don't wave a magic wand, unless you're happy with ASB country. You got to do the work to establish the premise.
I put together one example by the seat of my pants. Maybe there's dozens out there. But it's about doing the work.
At least it's an outline of the kind of train of luck, greed, experience, and imagination that would be needed to get a plausible early exploring dynamic into the Atlantic.
Coffee. Not potatoes, tomatoes, or gold. Coffee.
I salute you DValdron, for playing to my over caffeinated prejudices.
(I don't think any variey of coffee I know would thrive as far North as the Madeiras or Azores.)
Perhaps, more realistically it's a comestible or raw material we've not considered yet.
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