Romans cross the Atlantic
- Thread starter LXEagle
- Start date
What did they have for rations that didn't go bad for all those thousands of miles? Island hopping in the wide pacific that doesn't seem well stocked with islands.
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As DValdron mused on earlier, it is exceedingly difficult to create a reasonable POD that creates that motivation for a Mediterranean based culture.
Land hungriness was the motivator for the Viking voyages. And the Polynesians.
What would plausibly motivate peoples with abundant land and resources at hand in the Classical era?
Land hungriness was the motivator for the Viking voyages. And the Polynesians.
What would plausibly motivate peoples with abundant land and resources at hand in the Classical era?
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out...always interested in maritime history links.
Regarding the Polynesians, their open boats are masterpieces. Don't let the word "open" be confused with fragile.
The Proa is one of the most handy boats ever developed...truly double ended it can sail in either direction, forward or backward...which becomes forward...It flies on top of the water rather than plowing through it.
The Polynesians were masterful navigators as well. they not only knew the stars but could read and feel the seas. They could feel the swells that crossed the oceans, distinguishing the great oceanic swells from the intersecting swells reflected from islands. They could tell which direction the island was even if they had never been there. This extraordinary skill was passed down orally and, I believe, there are still some practitioners today. I know it was still alive in the '60s.
There have been no greater seamen and navigators than the Polynesians.
Fish, for one. Fresh, tasty fish. Fermented breadfruit, Yams and other foods that would keep a long time. Water would be captured by rainfall. Coconuts also supplied liquids and more. They also took live animals with them.
First, western Pacific is well stocked with Islands, and while eastern archipelagos are less easy to reach it wasn't much distant for skilled navigators. The hopping probably was less of a matter than was the approach of Azores and Canaries (that are much further from Iberic peninsula than many oceanic islands between themselves)
Their embarcations didn't needed a great deal of crew furthermore, so they probably went with limited rations to begin with and fishing during the rest of time.
Finally, remember that we don't have clear historical sources on this and merely know their success : the dramatic failures, lost ships or dying out migrating people are out of our picture.
Lost voyagers figure in Polynesian and Micronesian lore. I'm sure casualties were high, as good as they were at their craft.
Good point, while I was more talking of at least guesstimated ration of successful/failed attempts at transoceanic navigations based on historical sources rather than lore.
My take on this was more to say : hell, yes they managed to settle the islands but we don't know how much people they lost in the process.
True, I'm not arguing.
All we know at all on the subject is from a dying oral tradition.
Come on!...they totally would have sailed there fore tomatos...
Thats just silly, that they would simply would not trade with a huge market like the americas... if they could, that is...
Obviously they would have needed sailingships and better navigationskills to cross the atlantic ocean. The vikings could do it, with a galley kind of, but that was a more advanced ship and they also island hopped. Maybe if the romans were into whaling, as someone mentioned, or ivory.
How about an easternvoyage? The chinese found theyre way to siberia in the middleages, so what about if maybe one great king or emperor sent an expedition along the indoasian coast, stumbling on alaska they would have eventually come into contact with central and southamerican civilisations?
Thats just silly, that they would simply would not trade with a huge market like the americas... if they could, that is...
Obviously they would have needed sailingships and better navigationskills to cross the atlantic ocean. The vikings could do it, with a galley kind of, but that was a more advanced ship and they also island hopped. Maybe if the romans were into whaling, as someone mentioned, or ivory.
How about an easternvoyage? The chinese found theyre way to siberia in the middleages, so what about if maybe one great king or emperor sent an expedition along the indoasian coast, stumbling on alaska they would have eventually come into contact with central and southamerican civilisations?
This is
Hōkūle`a, a 62' traditional Polynesian vessel that is in the midst of a circumnavigation of the world. They are navigating primarily with traditional methods.
This is their route...some pretty significant crossings involved here.
This is a Polynesian stick chart.
So...lets accept that the real wonder is that the Polynesians did not discover the entire planet and return to the Mediterranean in the classical period.
I don't know how to spell it more clearly than it was already done.
They.Didn't.Know.There.Was.A.Market.Or.For.That.Matter.A.Land.There.
A knarr is everything you want except a roman galley.
First, they aren't row-propelled, then lapstrake (*not* used in Roman times) make a faster and stronger structure.
You do realise there is a continental and terrestrial connection between Siberia and China, and that greatly facilitate coastal navigation, isn't?
So, we need navigators that fail so bad at their job that they miss Indonesia but they still manage reach Alaska before going all the way down to South America?
There's a bit of contradiction there.
Furthermore, you had regular naval relationship between Roman Egypt and Indias (some ponctual ambassies were even made between Rome and some indian princes; and roman coins found in Indian coast aren't that uncommon). But it was essentially a Greco-Egyptian stuff, Romans being sort of hydrophobic when it came to navy.
The motivation to go more further than India was remarkably absent (even if they did knew about far eastern kingdom, calling China "Serica", the country of silk makers.) as everything passed trough India without issues.
Actually, there is some speculation about lateen being of austronesian origin.
Not by direct contact, of course, but by transmission trough other cultures up to Indias, and there introduced in Mediterranean basin.
I'm doubtful about this sorts of attempts : It's far more easy to manage to end such trail succesfully when you know where you're going, that you have the support of decades of technology to back you (I know they're using traditional techniques while onboard, but I'm talking about preparing a trail and knowing what you have to expect).
Eventually, you can proove more or less anything (up to a point of course).
(EDIT : On a unrelated note, when pictures you post are that large, could you just provide a link please?)
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I wouldn't be surprised about the lateen rig but that is a new one to me.
While this voyage has the advantages of modern world knowledge and technology, I don't think the Pacific, Indian or Atlantic oceans will really care that this vessel was built in 2012 and not 1312. Their journey has a purpose beyond proving a point about Polynesian boats so, being no less prudent than their ancestors, they have planned for this voyage as best as they can.
Point about the image size taken, sorry 'bout that.
They were probably quite prudent, for what that's worth in a sailboat in the Pacific. A program on Polynesian navigators suggested that they explored upwind, so they could turn around and sail to a known location with a following wind.
You misunderstood me : I'm not arguing about the use of traditional features on the shipping. If they say they respected that, I'm believing them.
What I'm pointing is that knowing exactly where you're going, which way you'll follow is a whole different thing than jumping (or rather "hopping") into the unknown. Whatever they are concious or not of this, hundreds of year of naval tradition and knowledge are going to modify the immaterial technological material they use on this trip.
What they could proove is that a modern crew can pilot a traditional polynesian ship all over the world, as the Kon-Tiki experiment proved that about andine embarcation trough Pacific (they barely did it, and we know that such thing didn't really happened historically).
The historical implications are limited, at best.
(But again, that's not at all a denigration of this crew experience, and I can only wish them luck and success in what seem to be a passioning expedition)
No problem, and welcome on board!
Ok, lets spell...
1 SUPPOSE THEY DID, THEN IT WOULD BE TOTALLY WORTHWHILE BECAUSE OF TOMATOS!!!
2 THIS WAS A TECH QUESTION...SUPPOSE THEY WANTED TO COULD THEY DEVELOP WHAT TECHNOLOGY?
3 YOU ARE TALKING OUT OF YOUR HAT, STOP QUOTING ME PLEASE.
You may confuse tomatoes with spinach, that in Popeye the Sailor Man give extra strength, and are probably a strategic ressource in this world.
Unfortunatly spinach doesn't give extra strength in reality and neither tomatoes that aren't a strategic ressource.
Furthermore, logic being an hard mistress, Romans couldn't have heard about tomatoes before going in Americas for, interesting detail, tomatoes originate from Americas.
Therefore, knowing about tomatoes before going to Americas is impossible; and arguing that tomatoes could have been a motor for develloping Roman naval technology is a logical fallacy.
Got it?
And if my aunt had some, I would have called her "my uncle".
You don't devellop technologies out of nowhere with a precise goal in mind (well, except in Civilization, but I assume we're talking about real world there).
As they didn't have a motivation for doing so (remember, not knowing tomatoes or Americas...Still following me?), they wouldn't have wanted to go in these technological branches, for you see, practical technological advances are based on needs.
So, yeah, if they had Renaissance age ships, they would have probably used them. And if they had space rockets, you would probably have Romans on the Moon at some point.
The Alien Space Bats section is just below the Pre and Post-1900 sections, you can't miss it.
Your Tomato-fetish is really disturbing at this point, that it deserved an answer. Your propositions are...hugely irrealistic (I would rather use another word, but I'm told that there is children on the board) and if you don't like being corrected on historical or even logical bases, I suggest you to ignore me but I don't think I'd be the only one eventually to point out the problems with your...ah...reasoning.
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For the last time...trolls do not eat tomatos. They eat stakes. Stay at home.