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I know absolutely nothing about Byzantine, but reading this makes me feel like I know all there is to know about the background. Kudos for that. Great writing, flows really smoothly between the action, the intrigue and the past.
One thing though, in this paragraph:
The [1] doesn't correspond to any note.
One thing though, in this paragraph:
The [1] doesn't correspond to any note.
Deleted member 67076
Lets hope it stays that way.
Thank you!
I've tried really hard to fill in much of the gaps and explain the situation that's going on, as I myself initially was confused on all the various occurrences. That missing footnote has since been fixed.
Thank you!
That missing footnote has since been fixed.
Yay!
Could we also get some pictures and maps, if possible of course? I have a hard time imagining everything and everyone, and finding reference material is as effective as trying to draw them while blindfolded with my hands tied behind my back.
Subbed!
And I haven't even started reading yet.
So you must have done something right, I think.
And I haven't even started reading yet.
So you must have done something right, I think.
Deleted member 67076
Yeah its a confusing period; I'll try to make as many maps as I can in the future as the borders will start shifting pretty rapidly.Yay!
Could we also get some pictures and maps, if possible of course? I have a hard time imagining everything and everyone, and finding reference material is as effective as trying to draw them while blindfolded with my hands tied behind my back.
EDIT: I did find this relatively accurate map that, with a few minor changes is accurate to the time of the timeline (1341). Basically, the only differences from here are that Bulgaria should be united under Ivan Alexander with its borders pushing just north of the Rhodope Mountains. Meanwhile, all Anatolian possesions of the Byzantine empire have been lost. Instead, there should be 4 beyliks taking their place, from north to south: Osman, Karesi, Saruhan and Aydin, the latter based in Smyrna (modern day Izmir). In addition, most of Northern Iraq, Kurdistan and Syria should under the control of the Jalayirids instead of the Ilkhanate. Final change should be that the northern half of the despotate of Epirus should be under control of the Byzantine Empire.
Hope that helps.
Yes. They still run the Duchy of Athens and thus will make an appearance in the coming years.
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GdwnsnHo
Banned
Well this is a fantastic PoD - and in the last few minutes to the metaphorical midnight to boot!
An interest in soft power and trade for the Romans after this bodes well, especially for balancing power against the landed nobility.
I wonder if you'd begin to see the rise of merchant dynatoi that favored the navy vs landed dynatoi that favored the army.
Either way - I can't wait to see more!
An interest in soft power and trade for the Romans after this bodes well, especially for balancing power against the landed nobility.
I wonder if you'd begin to see the rise of merchant dynatoi that favored the navy vs landed dynatoi that favored the army.
Either way - I can't wait to see more!
4
Deleted member 67076
In most circumstances, having the rich and powerful of a society against you is a death sentence. For one Alexios Apokaukos, its an opportunity to eliminate your opposition in one go and cement control. For while John could pull a good bluff, Alexios knew how to counter that with the use of an excellent propaganda campaign. Upon hearing the news that many nobles publically announced their support for John, Apokaukos’ first decision was simply to officially confiscate the oppositions’ assets (estates, properties, businesses, etc), and any wealth they left in the capital and the surrounding countryside that had been under Regency control. Following that, he made the fortunes, whatever they may be, of whatever opposition that remained outside his control (most of Macedonia and Greece) public knowledge, with heralds being paid to focus on spreading this news in the poorest areas under regency control. [2] (As a highly influential player in the bureaucracy, the man had access to the records of nearly every landowner. Where the land was, how much it was worth, and who owned what.) Following that, he declared each and every one of them an enemy of the state and declare their lands all confiscated and that the lands would be given to the loyal people of the empire, with a preference to the loyal soldiers of the regency.
The result was exactly as he expected. The poor, destitute from the abuses of the aristocracy flocked to his side in droves, swelling the army to numbers that would have been unfathomable a few years ago. Within a few weeks, Alexios gained an army. An angry, bloated, undisciplined, untrained, and under equipped army, but an army nonetheless.
This spread of knowledge continued outside the countryside. Both by herald and word of mouth, the imperial decrees that told the landowners were free game spread far and wide. The Regency forced had hoped to fan the flames of rebellion however way they could. Thus they began to up their message, painting the aristocracy as abusive, greedy, out of touch and disloyal denizens who would seek to take away the one true emperor who was willing and able to aid his subjects. This was followed by Alexios pressuring Patriarch John into excommunicating the Regency’s opponents and using the church as a tool of mobilization. The likening to the aristocracy to hated figures such as Judas, for example, was common. All of this worked… better than it should have.
What began as a method to bolster their numbers and demoralize their opponent's base soon became a full fledged revolution. Anti Aristocratic revolts popped up left and right in the coming years. Mobs of peasants and urban workers demanding change attacked landed estates, seizing their land dividing it among themselves. Extreme polarization of the population occurred on an unprecedented scale. Either one was with us or with them. ‘Anti-Kantakouzenism’ became the rallying cry of many, and anyone who was accused of it would face their wrath. They took to the streets, demanding change. And if they cannot be given it… they took it.
Alexios had hoped to direct the rage and repression of the urban masses to support his position by providing a cheap source of soldiers. Instead he ignited a revolution. [3]
[1] All of this is OTL.
[2] Alright I want to clear this up right now. When the term ‘Revolution’ is used, its best for you not to think “Russian Revolution”. Better you think “German Peasants revolt of 1524”. There are going to be similarities with both but please do not think this is just having Socialism in the 1300s. I use revolution because purple prose is fun.
The result was exactly as he expected. The poor, destitute from the abuses of the aristocracy flocked to his side in droves, swelling the army to numbers that would have been unfathomable a few years ago. Within a few weeks, Alexios gained an army. An angry, bloated, undisciplined, untrained, and under equipped army, but an army nonetheless.
This spread of knowledge continued outside the countryside. Both by herald and word of mouth, the imperial decrees that told the landowners were free game spread far and wide. The Regency forced had hoped to fan the flames of rebellion however way they could. Thus they began to up their message, painting the aristocracy as abusive, greedy, out of touch and disloyal denizens who would seek to take away the one true emperor who was willing and able to aid his subjects. This was followed by Alexios pressuring Patriarch John into excommunicating the Regency’s opponents and using the church as a tool of mobilization. The likening to the aristocracy to hated figures such as Judas, for example, was common. All of this worked… better than it should have.
What began as a method to bolster their numbers and demoralize their opponent's base soon became a full fledged revolution. Anti Aristocratic revolts popped up left and right in the coming years. Mobs of peasants and urban workers demanding change attacked landed estates, seizing their land dividing it among themselves. Extreme polarization of the population occurred on an unprecedented scale. Either one was with us or with them. ‘Anti-Kantakouzenism’ became the rallying cry of many, and anyone who was accused of it would face their wrath. They took to the streets, demanding change. And if they cannot be given it… they took it.
Alexios had hoped to direct the rage and repression of the urban masses to support his position by providing a cheap source of soldiers. Instead he ignited a revolution. [3]
[1] All of this is OTL.
[2] Alright I want to clear this up right now. When the term ‘Revolution’ is used, its best for you not to think “Russian Revolution”. Better you think “German Peasants revolt of 1524”. There are going to be similarities with both but please do not think this is just having Socialism in the 1300s. I use revolution because purple prose is fun.
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Very interested to see where this is going. I'm guessing an end result might be the position of emperor becoming constitutional or ceremonial, over time, of course.
Deleted member 67076
Eh, probably not. If anything the absolutism might increase as a reaction against the rising influence of the Dynaitoi in the last century.
That actually is rather plausible depending on the right development. I mean OTL we got the Zealots of Thessalonica, who by all means were Monarchist Anarcho-communists.When i saw footnote 3, i thought of a eastern roman commuist state. Needless to say i snickered a bit
Awesome timeline so far, is the prose deliberately in-character? It seems to casually talk about some factors as if they're inevitable historical processes, which was an interesting way to show the divergences from OTL.
Deleted member 67076
Take away the republic part; the Byzantines hated that government like the Nazis hated Communism. Even the Zealots were fiercly loyal to the monarchy as they were skewering nobles for fun.
Yep. The self awareness was very deliberate too.
Alcsentre Calanice
Gone Fishin'
Logical (the Byzantine Senate was controlled by the aristocrats, the only social class which could maybe produce some republican opposition), but regrettable. Beside this particular timelime: I wonder if the Byzantine were aware of the little, not very important fact that the empire, the whole base of the Byzantine state was built under and by a republic, which was the state of their ancestors? Nevertheless, I admit that the medieval republics to which a Byzantine could refer, were little and annoying ennemies of the empire's power and more a plague than an actual lighthouse of temperate, popular government.
Dragos Cel Mare
Banned
Shevek would probably consider this timeline 'reactionary', despite the fact that this is actually pretty dang progressive. True, the Byzies don't like the idea of democracy because it's aristocrat-dominated, and (no offense meant) I think AAoM's 'Sub-legal Absolutionism' is ASB, but at least the economic aspects of the Empire in this timeline are more slanted towards meritocracy and the lower classes...or will be once the civil war is done.
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5
Deleted member 67076
Yeah this won't be a quick war of a couple weeks. No aristocracy gives up their power earlier. Fortunately, the peasants have 2 things on their side: fanaticism and numbers.
Oh yeah, there's no doubt about it. Its a bit ironic that once the government wins it won't be in complete control despite all the work the Regency forces have put in to cement control. Ive already mentioned the Zealots of Thessalonica as one major faction that comes up, but it won't be the only one.
I'd very much appreciate guesses at who or what group or social strata could amass power in the aftermath of the Civil War.
Dunno if I'd call this reactionary, at least not in the economic sense for the time. As for the political sense? I dunno, a Prussia style government could be in the works (except replace the Junkers with something like the Scholar-Bureaucrats of China)
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Anyways, I figured you guys have gone too long without seeing the POD, so here it is:
However, Rome’s unmolested metamorphosis could only be allowed thanks to events that prevented the intervention of its neighbors. Thus, while not the catalyst of this events, a good deal of responsibility for the events that unfolded following the death of Andronikos were the actions of the then king of Hungary, Charles. Therefore, let us turn the clock back a few years to 1336. Hungary (or more accurately its king Charles) was at the time embroiled in war with its neighbors and vassals. Yet again.
At the time, the Hungarians were at war with the Serbians to the south due to the latter’s clash with the Banate of Bosnia, a Hungarian satellite. During the year, Charles decided to invade Serbia to aid his Bosnian vassal/ally. Initially successful in invading the Serbian state, his advanced crawled to a halt as the terrain grew more and more rugged the further south he went, allowing the Serbs to reorganize and pull off a successful guerilla defense. With the Serbs striking at supply lines, launching ambushes and grinding down the morale, the Hungarians were in a tight spot. Growing ever more bolder, the Serbs began to launch raids at high profile targets, attempting to kill captains, nobles and even King Charles himself at one point. During that fateful attempt, the king was unfortunately struck by an arrow. Charles was forced into a hasty retreat back north where the bulk of his forces resided. Despite the best treatment of the day, the close call forced Charles died of infection several days afterword. [1] When the news reached the capital, turmoil reigned.
Hungary had been left in the hands of his ten year old son Louis. A regency council was cobbled together, but the damage had already been done. Serbia has taken the incentive and pushed onwards into Bosnia with the attempt of taking the disputed region of Hum. Capturing town after town, the Serbs progressed with little initial difficulty, forcing peace with the Bosnians by the spring of 1337. Hum would be ceded to Serbia and the Serbian friendly Vladislav Nikolic, lord of Popovo Polje was put to rule the Banate of Bosnia. But that’s not it, in the midst of Hungary’s chaos, one Mladen Subic of Croatia rebels and seizes the Banate of Croatia for himself to restore his family’s power. Despite claiming loyalty to the Hungarian king, the actual Hungarian influence of the sub-kingdom was removed, leaving Croatia de facto independent for the time being. And to add to the list of troubles, Venice jumps in attacking and capturing segments of Dalmatia.
Back on the domestic front, the various nobles who had been chafing under Charles’ centralization of the state rise up once more. Although drastically diminished in power, they hope that the disorganization of home would aid them in their endeavor. At the same time, they seek a pretender to give legitimacy for their claim. John of Luxemburg, the current king of Bohemia with ties to the Hungarian throne fits that criteria nicely. With a bit of convincing, he agrees to challenge Louis. Bohemia promptly invades opening yet another front.
WIth all this on his plate, young Louis had his work cut out for him. In the ensuing remainder of the decade Hungary’s massive army (the majority of which loyal to the establishment) worked to quash revolts, enforce vassalage, repel invaders and keep the peace as much as it could, with mixed results. The ensuing civil war, seen as the most pressing issue by the king’s mother and de facto ruler, was ended relatively quickly after 3 years of fighting thanks to the results of the previous rounds of reforms. Said reforms did wonders in ensuring the royal family would always have an advantage in resources over the nobility in terms of land, money and manpower in addition to dramatically weakening the people’s loyalty to any baron via the former’s honor system.
The Magyar kingdom would eventually overcome it obstacles and restore order in the homefront by 1342 followed by pushing out the Bohemians and making a favorable peace but exhaustion and near bankruptcy had set in before it could do anything else. The government knew it could not afford another war in Wallachia, let alone with Serbia and Venice so it conceded defeat. Hum was recognized as Serbian territory and various ports and islands on the Dalmatian coast were tentatively recognized as Venetian territory followed by a truce being signed by all parties. Hungary had whethered the storm, despite leaving the war weaker than at its start. It would be time for the wounds to heal, but for now the kingdom had earned its rest.
[1] This is our POD. IOTL Charles was wounded by an arrow but survived. Here, he does not, throwing Hungary into chaos and prompting Stefan Dusan to focus his energies north into Bosnia. This has repercussions down the road that prevent Dusan from interfering with in the upcoming Roman Civil War.
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