Reconstruction: The Second American Revolution - The Sequel to Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
Right. He was part of a peace committee in 1860 - I could easily see Breckinridge trying to use him in his own peace plans, and former President Tyler then being executed by the junta.
It's amazing that he had children alive that long after he was born. I did meet a lady in our church recently who is around 90 whose grandfatehr was born in 1818, and her father, if I recall correctly,around 1880, but 1818 is almsot 30 years after Tyler was born!That means the children in her case were born with the dads in their early 60s and mid-50s, respectively, verses close to 70 for both in Tyler's case.
Looking on all the discussions sprouting up, I think in both the short term for political expediency of reconstruction and in the long term of the south as a whole to spare itself perpetual self-loathing the Coup is critical. In ITTL argument:
the pre-coup confederacy was for a foolish and downright bad cause but many behaved nobly (guys like Lee or Longstreet for example) and the leaders like Breckenridge stood up to the evil planter elite to fight for the average man that thought that secession was a representation and declaration of a shared southern culture rather than a tool of the Slaveocracy to stay in power. As the war was clearly lost and those of the noble persuasion realized it and tried to get the best peace possible, the Slaveocracy threw off their mask of southern pride and revealed themselves to be what they were.
This argument is filled with distortions, obfuscations, and convenient lies but the kernel of truth is in there and makes for a heady way for Lincoln and the Union to focus hate on the Junta (I mean, the starvation and Jacquerie and the futility of fighting and the kangaroo justice involved pretty much makes it easy even from a southern pov) while portraying the pre-Junta as wrong and criminal but still having "honor." Such a distinction is not a dividing line given that Toombs and the men he killed all shared the same disgust with abolition but I feel the distinction will be viewed as bright by the vast majority, especially in the south.
I see a lot of class distinctions coming forth, maybe the Lincoln admin trying to connect the plight of the slaves with that of the poor southern whites: "The Slaveocracy didn't care about anything but their own power" to counteract claims of white supremacy. Toombs executing people to preserve his wealth and Joe Johnston/Beauregard executing people to settle political scores while stirring up racial hate as a justification while seeing all the poor of all races as just cannon fodder.
the pre-coup confederacy was for a foolish and downright bad cause but many behaved nobly (guys like Lee or Longstreet for example) and the leaders like Breckenridge stood up to the evil planter elite to fight for the average man that thought that secession was a representation and declaration of a shared southern culture rather than a tool of the Slaveocracy to stay in power. As the war was clearly lost and those of the noble persuasion realized it and tried to get the best peace possible, the Slaveocracy threw off their mask of southern pride and revealed themselves to be what they were.
This argument is filled with distortions, obfuscations, and convenient lies but the kernel of truth is in there and makes for a heady way for Lincoln and the Union to focus hate on the Junta (I mean, the starvation and Jacquerie and the futility of fighting and the kangaroo justice involved pretty much makes it easy even from a southern pov) while portraying the pre-Junta as wrong and criminal but still having "honor." Such a distinction is not a dividing line given that Toombs and the men he killed all shared the same disgust with abolition but I feel the distinction will be viewed as bright by the vast majority, especially in the south.
I see a lot of class distinctions coming forth, maybe the Lincoln admin trying to connect the plight of the slaves with that of the poor southern whites: "The Slaveocracy didn't care about anything but their own power" to counteract claims of white supremacy. Toombs executing people to preserve his wealth and Joe Johnston/Beauregard executing people to settle political scores while stirring up racial hate as a justification while seeing all the poor of all races as just cannon fodder.
And from a pragmatic standpoint ensures the Union doesn’t get saddled with a “Southron Problem” the same way Britain had an Irish Problem, Russia a Polish Problem, or Austria a Hungarian Problem.
Something like that, yes. He'd probably deserve execution, but the idea of doing it would raise all kinds of trouble. Especially the fact that Stephens remained popular in Georgia also contributed to him being exiled instead of executed. As for Lee, yes, he's likely to be a very controversial figure and the question of whether he would have supported the coup and the Junta would be endlessly debated ITTL. There are arguments for both, with how Lee was very loyal to Breckinridge but how he also would have absolutely opposed the idea of abandoning Virginia until he was truly forced to. I think it's more fun if there's no firm answer.
Exactly my reasoning when I wrote this story. At the end of the day, we need to give the people a new and different foundation on which they can build an identity. They're going to seize on something, because they can't be expected to just immediately admit they are evil and their cause was evil. They need a villain, something that allows them to say "the cause was evil but we are good people, for we were merely deluded and forced." If hatred can be directed against the planters and some sort of solidarity with the freedmen built, we've got a much better foundation for a new Southern identity.
Yeah!
Of course. It weakens and divides Southern society, which OTL was firmly arrayed against the Yankees and their fancy "Reconstruction."
Saw this, checked it out and discovered it was a sequel to another TL so I went and binged that before coming back. I gotta say, that was an amazing TL and I cannot wait to see how this one will turn out. Eagerly waiting for additional updates.
In accordance with me asking about D. W Griffith in the original thread, may I ask what happened to Thomas Dixon Jr. ITTL? Assuming he was still born in North Carolina in 1864. IOTL he was an author who wrote racist novels that supported white supremacy and opposed racial equality for blacks, most notably his novel The Clansman (1905) was later adapted into a popular play and then the infamous blockbuster movie Birth of a Nation (1915) directed by the aforementioned D. W. Griffith, which has gone on to be called the most racist film in Hollywood history.
I wonder if James Longstreet ends up in a far better position than he was OTL, given he's the "living martyr" of the Junta plus earning the respect of the Union for surrendering at the time he did.
Oh I expect the Union to parade Longstreet out and, once he's proven his loyalty, actually give him a position of influence. He could potentially end up as a Reconstruction Governor if he proves his worth - he's be able to speak to disenfranchised Southrons, explain how he had believed in the Cause, but came to see it for how wrong it was and ha to stand up to the Junta in order to protect the soldiers he cared about. If he shows a willingness to work with Freedmen, he could basically become the prototype of the "Good Confederate" - and it would make sense for the Union to push him when and where they can
And promoting people like Longstreet and co would help ensure that the Union does not have its own equivalent to Britain's "Irish Problem" except the size of a continent by making it clear to White Southerners that Reconstruction, if they play ball and keep their head down, was not the end of the world.
Hello,
Longstreet may be placed in a way that lets him continue to serve the US and putting him out of the way until he fades into obscurity. I think he wishes not to draw more attention to himself after his defection helped by Grant. So, this may happen like in OTL ...
I wonder how the Fighting McCooks fared in this timeline.
In OTL they were two brothers from Ohio: Daniel McCook and John James McCook, along with the 13 sons of both, who all served in the Union military. Daniel died during the war, becoming a war hero, while many of the second generation went on to have political ambitions. George Wyth McCook would serve as the AG of Ohio and was a losing Democratic candidate for governor. Edwin Stanton McCook would be named the Secretary of the Territory of Dakota before being assassinated in 1873 due to a personal dispute with another leading figure in the territory. Edward Moody McCook would be named the territorial governor of Colorado, and John James McCook Jr was a prominent NY lawyer and railroad executive. A number of other passed away during the war in various battles.
Rather fascinating group - most known for their temper and gungho attitude.
Would be some interesting stories you could spin off of these guys. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_McCooks
In OTL they were two brothers from Ohio: Daniel McCook and John James McCook, along with the 13 sons of both, who all served in the Union military. Daniel died during the war, becoming a war hero, while many of the second generation went on to have political ambitions. George Wyth McCook would serve as the AG of Ohio and was a losing Democratic candidate for governor. Edwin Stanton McCook would be named the Secretary of the Territory of Dakota before being assassinated in 1873 due to a personal dispute with another leading figure in the territory. Edward Moody McCook would be named the territorial governor of Colorado, and John James McCook Jr was a prominent NY lawyer and railroad executive. A number of other passed away during the war in various battles.
Rather fascinating group - most known for their temper and gungho attitude.
Would be some interesting stories you could spin off of these guys. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_McCooks
I could see Longstreet acquiring a public reputation that's a sort of mix between popular perceptions of Rommel and von Stauffenberg.
Emphasis on the "popular perceptions" part mind.
Emphasis on the "popular perceptions" part mind.
How about labor struggles? Given that a radical labor tradition gained steam from 1865 onwards in America, in OTL, with a more radical Reconstruction I can easily see a more popular socialist or labor party gain influence. In particular, the great strike of 1877 could be interesting.
Reading back I wonder what role will Robert Smalls play in reconstruction considering he has been portrayed as the model African-American solider and otl served as a Representative from South Carolina during Reconstruction
Speaking of which, how much would this TL’s first chapters discuss demobilization of the wartime Army and how it affects Reconstruction?
There may not be much demobilization they need the army to help keep peace in the south.
Chapter 1 already states that one hundred thousand soldiers were left for peacekeeping, which largely lines up with OTL. IOTL, more than 800,000 men had been discharged and another 190,000 by spring 1866. Demobilization was popular and in line with the anti-military disposition . That said, the demobilization of USCT could definitely be avoided, which was justified as a measure to placate Southerners. Retaining the cavalry volunteers or converting some USCT regiments to cavalry units would also be good for counter-insurgency.