Ok, no Israel- now what?

Assuming the British Mandate still expired as IOTL, Palestine WOULD have been part of Transjordan (with Gaza, IIRC, part of Egypt). There was never, to my knowledge, any plan to CREATE a state called Palestine.

It depends on what POD we're talking about. The British split the original mandate in 2 soon after acquiring it. That's why Trans-Jordan got its name. Any POD after the split would result in an Arab Palestinian state. The Egyptian Gaza thing I never heard about, I think you're back-projecting.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I still wonder if a significant migration to South Africa might have changed the nature of the white electorate in crucial ways


I doubt that there will be a much larger Jewish population in SA, in OTL SA restricted emigration from East Europe to avoid getting to many Jews especially in the thirties.
 
Trans-Jordan was given to Abdullah as a bit of a reward for not getting involved in the fighting in Syria, part of the general awarding of booby prizes to the Arabs which had been promised so much during the war. If there is no "Jewish homeland" to worry about, would the British give him the entire area, including the more populous - and very religiously significant to _Christians_ west-of-the-Jordan bits? I'd think they'd rather spin it off as a separate colony, which probably post world war II gains it's independent in fairly short order during the general 1947-1960-something decolonization scramble.

Might even get some sort of initially more-or-less democratic government, but I'm doubtful it stays so for long. If Nasser isn't butterflied away, or if we get a similar strong unify-the-Arabs boss man in Egypt, geographically contigous and non-Monarchic Palestine will be first on the unionist agenda, which might even have popular support in Palestine. (What did pre-war Palestinians think of Egyptians, BTW? Beating Heart Of The Arab World or a bunch of disorderly fellahim?) If it happens, the aforementioned geographic continuity means the union might stick - which may be settings things up for a _big_ war later on...

(I think in the absence of Israel, the conflict between traditional monarchies and modernizing, leftist or *Baathist "republics" will be, if anything, sharper: no israel as a common enemy - although, I will admit, that never seemed to restrain people much - no diversion of energies into wars vs Israel, and Egypt is no longer geographically cut off from the Arabian peninsula. )

No Israel means no lost wars with Israel, which means less humiliation for the Arabs, which may mean positive things for the development of middle eastern democracy over the long run, if a series of nasty wars in failed attempts to "unify the Arabs" don't mess things up. (And people will have less of a perception of Arabs being unable to fight their way out of a paper bag even if given an exacto-knife. Or am I assuming too much here? There seemed to be a willingness to be impressed by the prowess of Iraq's armies in 1990, unless that was all last-minute propagandizing).

Without the Palestinian conflict spilling over into Lebanon, will that country's fragile balance be preserved, or is it still doomed to civil war as the Christian % of the population decreases and the Shiites push for a bigger slice of the pie?

Our foisting the Shah on the Iranians probably is independent of the existence or otherwise of Israel, so he probably still gets the nod from the US and gets to offend a great many Shi'a clerics. Butteflies are big enough that it's hard to say whether we get an iranian revolution like ours, and when it might happen.

Without the wars of OTL, we probably don't get the oil embargo, but the big oil producers getting together to flex their muscles is probably inevitable: oil prices probably rise substantially over the 70's and perhaps 80's, but it might be gradual enough that the panicky attitude of OTL is not duplicated. (Also, the USSR's oil sales will not follow the "boom-and-bust" cycle of OTL, with possible effects on the empire's stability).

No Israel, the US lacks a stable ally in the area in the later parts of the century. (I don't think the US really considered Israel an ally for the first couple of decades, at least). Does the US try harder to find and build up friends in the area? ("Yes, Saddam is a S.O.B. But he's _S.O.B.")


Bruce
 
Well, it all depends on the POD. Why is there no Israel?
The 3 most probable options are:

1) The Zionist movement either realizes there's a people already living in Israel or goes for the Uganda plan.
2) No holocaust, or a lesser one. UN doesn't support Jewish spvereignity, and the Yeshuv (Jewish settlement) agrees to live as a respected minority in an Arab state.
3) 1948 war goes bad for Israel (!extremely unlikely!)

Respective with the PODs, these are the TLs i thought up:

1) British give both banks of the Jordan river to the Hashemites. Tensions soon rise between the Pan-Arabian Republic of Syria and the conservative, natoinalistic Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine. The two nations are bound to endless conflict. Iraq and Lebanon might also be affected by the Levantine situation.

2) Occasional riots. Begin, or a branch of his men, become underground terrorists. A Palestinian terrorist group probably also rises. The two groups, however, will probably destroy one another before they can cause any serious damage. Everyone lives happily ever after.

3) The Jewish minorities of Syria, Egypt and Jordan are brutally opressed and resort to terrorism. Eventually, they take control of their lost territories (although their not really recognized). With either Soviet or European assistence, the state is reestablished.
 

HueyLong

Banned
The POD I had in mind is that vague one bandied about- the Brits and Yanks don't let the Jews flood into Israel post-War, the Brits stop the formation of an Israeli state, and basically, the world is awesome from there.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The POD I had in mind is that vague one bandied about- the Brits and Yanks don't let the Jews flood into Israel post-War, the Brits stop the formation of an Israeli state, and basically, the world is awesome from there.


Awesome???? WTF????:eek:
 
There'd be no neverending Israeli-Arab/Palestinensian conflict, but otherwise I don't see what'd be awesome. And where'd the Jews go to, then?
 

HueyLong

Banned
Your walking on thin ice, HueyLong

Wow... can no one detect sarcasm?

The idea of a Middle East with No Israel(with the No Israel part being left vague as to how it happened) has been a common point of discussion, with a pretty large portion of people pretty much stating that the Middle East will become affluent and wealthy if not for Israel. It will unite, or at least be more unfiied, and democracy will develop if not for the Jewish State (y'know, the only functioning democracy of the region)

Dear God, this is like the third time I've been flip-flopped on my view of Israel. One minute, I'm an anti-Semite, the next I'm a crazy, wild-eyed Millenial Israel supporter, and now I'm definitely calling for the destruction of the state of Israel.......

The British did not even try to stop Jewish immigration to the Mandate of Palestine, so its hard to say that they "fully" opposed it in every manner they could.
 
The POD I had in mind is that vague one bandied about- the Brits and Yanks don't let the Jews flood into Israel post-War, the Brits stop the formation of an Israeli state, and basically, the world is awesome from there.

The only way to do that - no Balfour Declaration. That is (I think) the best option. If the UK sticks to its original promise of a pan-Arab homeland, then that would give the UK "street cred" in the Arab world.
 
The POD I had in mind is that vague one bandied about- the Brits and Yanks don't let the Jews flood into Israel post-War, the Brits stop the formation of an Israeli state, and basically, the world is awesome from there.

Had to read the entire thread to figure out why people were upset with your statement. Still can't figure it out. Your basic idea, if it deals with No Balfour Declaration etc., probably works.

Tho I believe that the Balfour Declaration is tied up with some British governmental agreement during the Great War.
 
Had to read the entire thread to figure out why people were upset with your statement. Still can't figure it out. Your basic idea, if it deals with No Balfour Declaration etc., probably works.

Tho I believe that the Balfour Declaration is tied up with some British governmental agreement during the Great War.

I dunno if this is a true story, but I read somewhere that one reason the Balfour declaration was issued in 1917 was that the rather anti-Semitic British politicians behind it actually believed in the "international Jewish conspiracy"...and wanted to get on it's good side.

Bruce
 
It's risky territory for me posting on this subject but here goes;)

One of the biggest helps to the "flooding" of the Mandate with Jewish immigrants was the willingness of Arab landlords to kick Arab tenant families off their land and sell it to the newcomers.

If the POD is post shoah then I think the only thing that would stop this would be some sort of strong democratic socialist secular movement arrising in Palestine that would be capable of taking control of the land - or - as did seem on the cards for a few years (read "A world to win" by Palestinian Jewish socialist Tony Cliff) a secular bi-partisan socialist/nationalist movement arrose to create a secular unified state. The second option was possible but was crushed by the commies, the Brits, the zionists, the arab nationalists, and the islamists.

If the POD is pre shoah then given that real zionism was an understandable reaction to mass anti semitism (and at the same time reliant on anti semitism - the idea of a "humane" solution to removing the Jews from Europe) in Europe and America you have to space bat anti semitism.
 
Well, the Zionist chaps did originally reject Palestine, because people were already living there. :p

I believe Madagascar was also suggesed at some point.
 
Palestine was the only realistic option ever, in terms of location and environment, not to mention the British government creaming it's pants (despite their inate anti-semitism, ain't international politics complex?) at the idea of a little "loyal Jewish Ulster" in the Middle East.

Not to mention Zionism was always factionalised like any other movement - but the Palestine option was the one that generally held sway.
 
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