Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
I'd bet on republic honestly but maybe a rump Sultan could be useful to the allies like with Japan?
I'd think Armenia would have the coast not the Russians. Or is it host to the Pontic Greeks? Even then I'd think they would prefer being part of someone else for protection (that's not Russia).
Who's blue, btw. Assyria? Or a socialist Kurdish Republic?
Also I'd think Kurdistan would have some bits of the coast at Syria. Coasts are very important and unless Kurdistan has good relations with Syria (which I doubt) Kurdistan would need the coast.
Also what's happening in Lebanon and Israel? Arab nationalism would grow after WWII, and I'd like to Israel kicking butt. The Middle East would be insane ittl as the UAR would be fighting against multiple fronts. Lebanon, Kurdistan, the blue thing (provided it's not socialist) and South Turkey would be allies fighting against the UAR and South Turkey, and I'd expect quite some borders to shift and change in the Middle East from the end of WWII to the end of the cold war. Greece would also be major player there. If Cyprus is part of Greece it will heavily influence the Middle East and so it'll also influence many of these wars which will be quite interesting since Greece otl never got the chance to influence much.
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That's Georgia, and I vaguely based it on Sphenodon's claims map way back on pg 31. Pontic Greeks got pop-transfered I think.
I doubt there are enough Assyrians for an Assyria that big, i will give kirkuk and Erbil to Kurdistan but I doubt that Assyrian state would be very viable without significant support from a superpower, surrounded by enemies in all sides.
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I mostly agree actually. I kinda figured this would be a map for right after the war. Whether Assyria would be able to hold everything given on paper well... I was rather sarcastic about the whole 'lasting peace' thing.
*edit That said I'm not sure how Iran would feel about a larger/expansionist Kurdistan on their border given their Kurdish lands.
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Ah. Welp I thought that Armenia should get some coastline since it should. Will there be significant calls to unite Armenia and Georgia?
Also I sent out the response before I wanted to so the bulk of the response is after the edit.
Atso the borders of the two Turkeys don't seem natural. Are there any natural barriers in Anatolia?
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Anatolia is pretty hilly/mountainous so one could say it's mostly natural barriers. I kinda figured it might be around where the Soviets might potentially push too as well.
Also, I know coasts are important but I don't see that big of a Kurdistan being easy, they'd have to be given or take an awful of land which others in the region might not let happen. I dont see Georgia and Armenia uniting for coastal access either, they didn't in otl and here they're both still Soviet puppets. That goes for my map and my bet for the timeline in general, but only Lascaris knows what will happen.
Some countries just end up unhappily landlocked.
I would Giresun and the areas west of it to Northern Turkey and give Armenian SSR a coastal strip for access to the black sea. Expand Kurdistan to include Tunceli and mountainous areas of Northern Iraq along the Iranian border. On the other hand give Tur abdin to Assyria, idk if this one is feasible since probably a lot of them left this place during the genocide. Also I feel like the borders for Assyria is also way too south...the Arabs also wont take losing Mosul well.
Also how succesfully will Greeks be able to populate that much of Anatolia as shown in Vaeius'map? Greeks might aim for rest of what used to be Italian Occupation Zone in Anatolia too for strategic reasons. All of this is assuming we see another population exchange/post ww2 style expulsions.
Also how succesfully will Greeks be able to populate that much of Anatolia as shown in Vaeius'map? Greeks might aim for rest of what used to be Italian Occupation Zone in Anatolia too for strategic reasons. All of this is assuming we see another population exchange/post ww2 style expulsions.
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Hmm. I guess? Idk but I'd think it'd be more of a North South split. Would make sense that that border quickly falls apart tho.
I'd think that Georgia would try to influence Armenia after the cold war (they should get into NATO too like otl) since it is much more powerful and Turkey is less of a thing. Since Georgia has more influence (and would not discriminate against Armenians) I'd think Armenia would get into NATO to be protected and gain a better economy. That should predispose Armenia to want to be part of Georgia.
PS: what's the blue country in northern Iraq?
That is if the Arabs (Iraq could shrink even more with Kuwait expanding taking Iraq coastline) are on a united front regarding the matter and Iran/Soviets aren’t meddling to keep the states on their borders weak and divided. Assyria state would be pretty useful in counterbalancing the Kurds and Arabs.
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I think this timeline has a brighter future for Spain. I am under the impression that the Monarchists will beast the Fascists. After France is liberated, Spain will declare war on Germany, even though I doubt they will be in position to supply troops to the Allies. But Spain will slowly democratize and be one of the founding members of the UN. I expect them to join NATO before 1950 as well.
Thing is that Rize doesn't have any Armenians or Greeks left. However, a great percentage of the region's population - perhaps a majority- are georgian-spaking muslims, the Laz or Lazi. Therefore, I think Rize will be part of the Georgian SSR. Come 2000, we might see a certain mr Erdogandze getting elected as President of Georgia.
The Armenian SSR might find an outlet to the sea at Trabzon. I think in the internal soviet politics the Armenians will be considered as a loyal socialist people that produced the first victories against the invaders. Stalin might want to reward their wartime behavior.
And the Hemshin (being Muslim Armenians) might be used to justify such a move to give the Armenian SSR access to the sea.
I'd think the Georgians will get some land from Turkey, but the majority of the Pontic region that the USSR annexed (at least Trabzon) should be given to the Armenians. The USSR isn't adverse to population movements anyways so I don't really see a problem in that (in ittl's logic anyway). With the Caucasus countries gaining much more land from Anatolia and the middle East should shake things up quite a lot.
And Hell freezes over. Seriously, thats as likely as a Serb/Croat union. No Armenian is going to even contemplate it, the Caucasus's are as bad as the Balkans in that reguard.
I wonder what the goal of the Soviet offensive is here (unless it has been mentioned and I missed it). They must appreciate that they cannot defeat Turkey in one campaign. So is it just a matter of inflicting a heavy defeat on the Turks and pushing them away from the border, thus securing the Soviet Caucuses for the campaign season? Ideally they would want to link up with the Allies but those are either too far away (Greeks) or in retreat and too far away (Everyone else). And when do we get the invasion of Iran that is absolutely bound to happen. Anyway, this TL continues to be one of the most interesting and plausible ones I have ever read.
Sure? I still think Armenia getting part of the Pontic region for some coast would be great for them though.
Very, just look at the problems Georgia has with its own minorities ( admittly the Russians are fanning the flames but the embers had to be present ), As for the coast some areas did have Armenian populations pre 1914 , unfortuatly they got purged during the Armenian Genicide. OTL this is what was proposed in 1920 ( image via google )
There’s another option for the Russian Pontic coast post-war, one that seems fairly likely to me: ethnic Russians get shipped in and it becomes a southern Kaliningrad. There aren’t all that many Armenians left—not enough to fully repopulate a huge swath of empty, valuable Black Sea land, especially if they have to repopulate the Lake Van area instead. I suppose Stalin being Georgian might be open to making the coast an expansion of the Georgian SSR instead, but given the Kaliningrad parallels I think Russian imports to ensure loyalty is likely.
He could ship Ethnic Russians to "help" repopulate western Armenia(especially along the black sea if it gets sea access) in case of population exchanges with Turkey. So instead of a Kaliningrad we have a Northern Kazakhstan situation.