Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
OK.
Once you decide you can stop being hostile and just discuss, I will be glad to. And listing the first two sites that come up in the google search "Ukrainian Genocide" is not providing "sources", it's providing links to nationalist propaganda. Give me a written order from Stalin to deliberately kill off millions of Ukrainians in a concerted effort at genocide, and I'll concede your point.
Even at the height of the Cold War the most die-hard anti-communists never claimed there was a Ukrainian Genocide. This is all part of the ever-growing genocide industry piggy-backing on the Holocaust, which was a REAL Genocide.
Anway, if you can find it,
Famine in Ukraine, 1932-1933
by Roman Serbyn (Editor), Bohdan Krawchenko (Editor)
is fairly definitive.
The question is not whether or not there was a famine, it's whether or not Stalin deliberately killed millions of Ukrainians in a policy of genocide.
Collectivization was supposed to improve agricultural productivity and produce grain reserves to feed the growing urban labor force, and the anticipated surplus was to pay for industrialization. Collectivization was also expected to free many peasants for industrial work in the cities.
He DID deliberately destroy the Kulaks, who were the wealthier farmers, who were considered hopelessly bourgeoise - they were scattered all over the Soviet Union and something like a million of them died in transit. So, the dispersing of the most productive farmers and the fact that the peasants were much less motivated to work on a state collective caused productivity to fall rather than rise, leading to the famine.
I lived for quite some time in Eastern Europe, and I think everyone is forgetting about the mind-boggling incompetence of state bureaucracy, especially one run by people with no education.
And I must say, "The truth is the truth, wherever it is printed." is an amazing statement. So who decides what the truth is? I always thought that having evidence to back up a position and a lack of evidence to disprove a position is what makes something true. That there is no documentary evidence whatsoever to support that Stalin deliberately orchestrated a Genocide is apparently irrevelant.
robertp6165 said:I have seen the same thing in printed books. Does it make it more true if it is in a printed book? The truth is the truth, wherever it is printed.
I have also spoken to Ukrainians who were there (or in some cases whose parents or grandparents were there)...and who saw the very things described in these articles. I have no reason at all to doubt these people.
At least I bothered to try to locate some easily accessable sources for my argument. What sources have you offered?
Once you decide you can stop being hostile and just discuss, I will be glad to. And listing the first two sites that come up in the google search "Ukrainian Genocide" is not providing "sources", it's providing links to nationalist propaganda. Give me a written order from Stalin to deliberately kill off millions of Ukrainians in a concerted effort at genocide, and I'll concede your point.
Even at the height of the Cold War the most die-hard anti-communists never claimed there was a Ukrainian Genocide. This is all part of the ever-growing genocide industry piggy-backing on the Holocaust, which was a REAL Genocide.
Anway, if you can find it,
Famine in Ukraine, 1932-1933
by Roman Serbyn (Editor), Bohdan Krawchenko (Editor)
is fairly definitive.
The question is not whether or not there was a famine, it's whether or not Stalin deliberately killed millions of Ukrainians in a policy of genocide.
Collectivization was supposed to improve agricultural productivity and produce grain reserves to feed the growing urban labor force, and the anticipated surplus was to pay for industrialization. Collectivization was also expected to free many peasants for industrial work in the cities.
He DID deliberately destroy the Kulaks, who were the wealthier farmers, who were considered hopelessly bourgeoise - they were scattered all over the Soviet Union and something like a million of them died in transit. So, the dispersing of the most productive farmers and the fact that the peasants were much less motivated to work on a state collective caused productivity to fall rather than rise, leading to the famine.
I lived for quite some time in Eastern Europe, and I think everyone is forgetting about the mind-boggling incompetence of state bureaucracy, especially one run by people with no education.
And I must say, "The truth is the truth, wherever it is printed." is an amazing statement. So who decides what the truth is? I always thought that having evidence to back up a position and a lack of evidence to disprove a position is what makes something true. That there is no documentary evidence whatsoever to support that Stalin deliberately orchestrated a Genocide is apparently irrevelant.