Most Brutal Dictator/Communist Leader

Most Brutal Dictator/Communist Leader


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Hm, Saddam might be small potatos (unless of course you happen to be a kurd, kuwaiti, swamp-arab, shiite or just an unlucky ordinary iraqi), but he was brutal beyond belief. And he didn't even have an excuse like trying to raise agricultural output or creating the perfect stat (be it some strange pre-cambodian wonderland or an aryan superman-land). So, I must admit I voted for old Saddam.

And why is Benito M on the list? Was he that nasty a guy? If he hadn't gotten himself into bed with Adolf then he might have ended up with a rather good reputation/image/what not, at least in Italy, I should think!

Best regards!


- Mr.Bluenote.

Honeste vivere, alterum non ladere, suum cuique tribuere!
 
Saddam Hussein, Santa Anna and Benito Mussolini are dilettantes compared to the rest of these guys and don't really belong on the same list.

Napoleon enlisted his victims in his army and then marched them off to war against another set of victims in pursuit of les glorieux. He's managed to escape enobled, with rather good press.

Kim Jong II stands a darn good chance of making the big leagues. So far he's more or less confined his murder and mayhem to his own nation/neighbourhood but shows every sign of being quite willing and able to inflict himself on a goodly portion of the world. That would move him right up the list.

Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge deserve to be on the list, but don't get top billing. I lump him in with Kim Jong II until KJ2 manages to distinguish himself further.

Hitler, Stalin and Mao are the top guys simply for the machinery of death and repression they each put in place. Hitler and Stalin stand out for the reach of their crimes and in that sense I think leave Mao behind.

What separates Stalin from the rest for me is sheer numbers, the lengthy term of his terror and the fact that he didn't really seem to distinguish between his own countrymen and people of other nations.
 
Can't really say I totally agree with you, Wiggy, but I do get your point though. I just think that people like Saddam, Idi Amin (He most certainly should have been on the list btw), Borkassa etc etc is at least as brutal as Stalin, Hitler and Mao. Hitler is pure evil, yes!Stalin is paranoid and merciless, si! Mao is, well, just another tyrant with a disregard for human life, no argument there! But them being the most brutal? Hm, I just don't know...

Best regards!

- Mr.Bluenote.

Honeste vivere, alterum non ladere, suum cuique tribuere!
 
Mr.Bluenote said:
Can't really say I totally agree with you, Wiggy,

Would make for a dull thread!

[Mr.Bluenote] but I do get your point though. I just think that people like Saddam, Idi Amin (He most certainly should have been on the list btw), Borkassa etc etc

I think that's a telling point right there. If we each sit down and put on our thinking caps I'm sure we could each come up with a few more names. Idi Amin, Borkassa, Milosevic, the architects of apartheid, the guy in the news this week up on charges for Rwanda – and we haven't really reached back past Napoleon. What about Ghengis Khan, Vlad the Impaler, etc?

Kind of scary to think about, but there are a pile of these guys around. That part of the list you can make as big as you like. But I have to stand beside my original argument in picking Stalin, Hitler and Mao as the big three. All the other come across as "regional" players for me.

[Mr.Bluenote] is at least as brutal as Stalin, Hitler and Mao. Hitler is pure evil, yes! Stalin is paranoid and merciless, si! Mao is, well, just another tyrant with a disregard for human life, no argument there! But them being the most brutal? Hm, I just don't know...

Best regards!

- Mr.Bluenote.

Thanks for the reply.

Wiggy
 
Hmm

Stalin was a very bad man, and a real contender for worst dictator ever, and he certainly deliberately killed an astounding number of people, but he did NOT orchestrate a Ukrainian Genocide. I'm really surprised that all of you are buying into this. The famine in 1932-3 struck the whole Soviet Union and was the result of the failure of collectivization, not a plan to deliberately starve the Ukraine. None of you are producing any evidence whatsoever, just Stalin = bad, therefore, everything bad that ever happened in the Soviet Union = deliberate nastiness by Stalin. The internet has truly destroyed history.

Hitler loved animals, and Nazi Germany was the most progressive nation in history with regard to animal rights. I suppose some of you will claim that was a smokescreen so he could kill more Jews.
 
Wiggy said:
Saddam Hussein, Santa Anna and Benito Mussolini are dilettantes compared to the rest of these guys and don't really belong on the same list.

Napoleon enlisted his victims in his army and then marched them off to war against another set of victims in pursuit of les glorieux. He's managed to escape enobled, with rather good press...

So let me get this straight...Napoleon, because he enlisted men into his army, deserves to be on this list, but brutal dictators who sent their citizens to concentration camps don't? Doesn't that mean that every leader who resorted to conscription should be up here? Where's Richard Nixon?
 
[Kuralyov]So let me get this straight...Napoleon, because he enlisted men into his army, deserves to be on this list, but brutal dictators who sent their citizens to concentration camps don't?

No, no, no. That's not straight. My mistake, I suppose, for using the phrase "don't really belong on the list". Every person listed is a worthy candidate. Given we're polling for Brutal Guy #1 I was basically sorting through the list – just ranking them all and outlining why Stalin got my vote. I'll try to be more precise with my language. ;) Let's try "belong down the list".

History's view of Napoleon always troubled me. He's so venerated in France, but deliberately ripped the rest of Europe to shreds. But apparently with some elan. Go figure. Brutal guy? Sure. Most brutal? Not even close.

If you pick up the news from Europe there is currently some sentiment in Italy for the rehabilitation of Mussolini along the lines of "He wasn't really a bad guy. He just had a few evil friends". So how brutal is that?

[Kuralyov]Doesn't that mean that every leader who resorted to conscription should be up here? Where's Richard Nixon?

No, not at all. The U.S. draft is a mechanism of a democratically elected government. They've done away with it, but still have the means to re-institute it at need. There has been some discussion along those lines in government given the demands placed on the US military by Afghanistan, Iraq, home defense, etc. It's clearly political dynamite and not to be taken lightly.

I would view overrunning a country and then impressing it's citizenry into your army to fight for you as rather different from conscription. More brutal somehow.

Note that it was LBJ, not Nixon who put the draft in place to support the American effort in VietNam.
 

Ian the Admin

Administrator
Donor
I think you guys are talking past each other. "Genocide" refers to deliberately targeting a specific group because of their ethnicity, religion, etc. The Soviet Union rarely did this - they generally targeted people on political and economic grounds. So while Stalin's regime appears to have killed tens of millions of people, "genocide" is not the proper word for it (mass murder, butchery, and so forth are quite appropriate).

The Communist leadership was quite aware that their policies were causing mass death, but John is right that this wasn't in itself the goal. They would have been satisfied with their reorganization of society even if it hadn't killed many millions of people. But they were also fine with it actually killing millions of people, which it did. Essentially the lives of those standing in the way of their political and economic plans meant nothing to them. Wealthy farmers as a class (the Kulaks) were deliberately brutalized, their food stolen from them, and so forth in actions basically guaranteed to kill everyone. And both the leadership and the Communists on the ground knew very well that their actions, such as confiscating food from starving "disloyal" peasants, were resulting in mass murder. But most of the deaths weren't an end in themselves, most of the people starved because Stalin was reorganizing farming and it was deemed acceptable if lots of people starved in the process.

A similar thing happened in China with Mao's "Great leap forward" - there were a lot of deliberate killings of individuals but the really big numbers came from starvation.

This is fairly distinct from what happened under Hitler. The typical German citizen did pretty much fine under Hitler (compared to the typical Russian who had a much larger danger of being starved, or shot/imprisoned for disloyalty, under Stalin). His goal was to exterminate specific groups as an end in itself - get rid of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, communists, and eventually as many "slavic untermenschen" as became necessary to clear out eastern Europe for German colonization.

Another example, sort of in-between, is the Japanese. They killed a tremendous number of people in Asia. But it wasn't due to Soviet-style indifference to life (Japanese weren't the targets), nor did they attempt genocide against other populations, Nazi-style. They were more the "brutal conqueror" type - in the progress of their military operations enemy combatants and civilians were treated with extreme harshness. Their military created a culture of contempt for other societies, and special contempt for anyone who surrendered.

And yet another example of hard-to-categorise mass murder in history was the Mongol horde. At times they contemplated genocide - mass extermination of farmers to make pastureland for their horses. But their bloodiest massacres occurred following the conquest of a city whose resistance had particularly angered them for some reason, and they might exterminate the entire populace. They also caused a lot of death through Soviet-style uncaring destruction - their conquest and mismanagement destroyed extensive irrigation systems in the Middle East, leading to huge numbers of deaths from starvation and privation. The Mongols killed a tremendous number of people, but rarely due to what we'd consider genocide. Even their deliberate mass killings of civilians usually were spur-of-the-moment things focusing on the population of a single city, whose neighbors would be completely spared if they surrendered without a fight.

"Genocide" is an overused label in the modern world, and the arguments over its improper application tend to simply confuse the tremendous evil and destruction of acts which cause tremendous deaths but don't happen to target a specific group.
 
Right.

Damned right the word 'genocide' is overused. :eek: I say no more.

Anyway, while I agree that millions of deaths were an acceptable sacrifice, it was not planned or desired. The Soviets were aware of demographics and the desirability of having a larger population than that of enemies, so there was no desire to uselessly throw away lives, and in any case, the Soviets did not introduce collectivization with the intent of failure! It was supposed to increase productivity and provide surpluses to pay for industrialization and to feed the growing number of factory workers. The paranoid nature of Stalin and the Soviet government in general interpreted the disruption and unrest caused by collectivization to be the work of Poland under Pilsudski and various other agents of imperialism. The failure of collectivization may have been catastrophic, and a historic human tragedy, but it was no genocide.
 
[Ian Montgomerie]I think you guys are talking past each other. "Genocide" refers to deliberately targeting a specific group because of their ethnicity, religion, etc.

I don't think it's a genocide issue. Brutality can encompass genocide. If the means to an end don't matter, that's brutality.

Brutal
Extremely ruthless or cruel.
Crude or unfeeling in manner or speech.
Harsh, unrelenting.

A number of valid points in your post. So sate my curiosity. Who's your most brutal dictator and why does he earn the prize?
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
There is ZERO documentary evidence to support that Stalin created an artificial famine to kill off millions of Ukrainians. The whole Soviet Union was hit by famine, not just the Ukraine. There was not enough grain to feed everyone, period. An artifical faminine would require the government to hold back existing food supplies from a population to deliberately starve them when it could be avoided. What occured was a REAL famine, not an artifical one.

Holding back the existing food supplies (and removal of food supplies) from the Ukraine in order to deliberately starve the population is exactly what Stalin did. The great thing (from Stalin's point of view) about this method, as opposed to what the Nazis did, is that you don't leave a lot of "documentary evidence" behind. There are, in the Soviet archives, orders which show that grain was ordered to be removed from the Ukraine. There are extant orders in the Archives which show that troops were stationed on the Ukrainian border to prevent food from getting in and people from getting out...which they DID NOT do in the rest of the country. There is plenty of eye-witness testimony which shows that the NKVD conducted searches of Ukrainian homes and farms to make sure that the food had in fact been removed. The fact that we don't have something from Stalin which says, "I order the intentional starvation of the Ukrainians" DOES NOT MEAN that there is no evidence to support that an intentional starvation occurred.

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
As for the Google search, did you read all 10,400 results or just the top 100 or so? Google lists results by the volume of hits any site receives. Since a nationalist Ukrainian with an axe to grind is more likely to be looking for Ukrainian Genocide articles than your average American on his lunch break, the top sites in a google search are most likely to be political. Type the words "iraq genocide" into Google and you will get enormous loads of garbage; the second is an article on jewwatch.com, and most are about the US genocide occurring in Iraq tight now. Or try "bush genocide" - you will have to go through tens of thousands of results before you find anyone who disagrees that Bush is a genocidal madman.

You spend a lot of time attacking me for citing internet articles. I only did this for the sake of convenience since I was not at home to pull books from my personal library, since the facts contained in the articles accords with the more scholarly sources I usually cite. The main source that I usually refer to in regard to the Ukrainian Famine is...

Conquest, Robert. The harvest of sorrow: Soviet collectivization and the terror-famine. New York: Oxford University Press, 1986

Conquest notes that in an unprecedented move in the autumn of 1932, seed grain was removed from the Ukraine and put in storage in cities -- a move which Conquest suggests shows authorities were concerned at protecting seed grain from hungry peasants who surely would have eaten it had they access to it at the height of the famine. More ominously, Conquest reports that beyond merely withholding food aid from the Ukraine, the Soviets stationed troops on the Ukrainian-Russian border to ensure neither food nor people went in or out of the Ukraine during the famine (Russia was spared the worst of the famine). As Conquest writes,

"The essential point is that, in fact, clear orders existed to stop Ukrainian peasants entering Russia where food was available and, when they had succeeded in evading these blocks, to confiscate any food they were carrying when intercepted on their return. This can only have been a decree from the highest level and it can only have had one motive."

You may question the credentials of the writers of internet history, but Robert Conquest's credentials as a historian are pretty much impeccable.

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
There is a very great body of scholarly work that does not support that there was a deliberate policy of murder of Ukrainians, and almost everything written to the contrary was written very recently, since the standards of scholarship required by editors have fallen away to nothing.

Articles and books on this subject which were NOT written recently suffer from two problems....1) Many, if not most, of them were written by historians or journalists who were either outright Marxists or by non-Marxist "progressives" who were sympathetic to socialism, both of whom were concerned with hiding the atrocities committed in Soviet Russia; 2) Their writers did not have access to the Soviet archives and to historical resources in the Ukraine itself, which modern historians have.
 
[Abdul Hadi Pasha]Anyway, while I agree that millions of deaths were an acceptable sacrifice

Wow. Okay. You get my vote for most brutal guy in the thread.

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]it was not planned or desired.

I have a hard time imagining Stalin pacing around in a circle, wringing his hands and saying, "Oops."

I guess I'm real glad I don't live in a proletarian paradise.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Damned right the word 'genocide' is overused. I say no more.

Nobody is using that word but you, John. You are making a "straw man" argument...

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Anyway, while I agree that millions of deaths were an acceptable sacrifice, it was not planned or desired.

I sincerely hope you meant that millions of deaths were an UN-acceptable sacrifice. Whether it was planned and desired I have answered elsewhere.
 
The first National Geographic I ever read was the one headlined with "Broken Empire" and had articles on post-Soviet Russia, Ukraine, and Kazakhstan. The one on Ukraine describes how they took ALL the food out of Ukraine (even seed corn and what have you), "sealed the districts, and let the people starve." The article described people eating tree bark and "it was like the Black Death passed through our village."

I'm sure the article is available online somewhere.
 
A Russian girl in my World History class in high school nearly started crying talking about how evil Stalin was and described how he "took all the food out of Ukraine" and how the people starved.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Anyway, I believe in the Holocaust because there are mountains of documentary evidence and orders, not to mention careful ledgers of all the Jews murdered and their personal belongings, and also not to mention the sworn testimony of hundreds of senior Nazis after the war that confirm there was a "final solution" policy, plus, Hitler said he was going to do it over and over, starting with Mein Kampf. There is ZERO documentary evidence to support that Stalin created an artificial famine to kill off millions of Ukrainians.

The whole Soviet Union was hit by famine, not just the Ukraine. There was not enough grain to feed everyone, period. An artifical faminine would require the government to hold back existing food supplies from a population to deliberately starve them when it could be avoided. What occured was a REAL famine, not an artifical one.
First of all, Nazi Germany was very efficient about keeping records of everything, while Soviet Union was much more disorganised. Secondly, Germany was conquered by Allies therefore Allies had the ACCESS to all German records. Only people who had access to real Soviet Documents are loyal party members and they aren't going to share it.

Soviet government DID hold back the food. While Ukraine was starving, Stalin was exporting grain to pay for industrialization. And that is not the most shocking thing about it. Soviet government posted armed guards outside warehouses with rotting grain while peasants were starving outside in the village That last piece of information I did not get from internet or some book. It came from my grandfather's mouth.
I'm Ukrainian myself and my family comes from a small village in Eastrn Ukraine about 100 miles from Dniepr and my grandfather used to tell me stories of how life was back than. He also fought in WW2 and was captured by Germans and sent to Germany as slave labor but he jumped off the train in Poland near Warshaw and traveled back to Eastern Ukraine by foot through occupied territory. Even though he hated Nazis, he hated Soviet Union too and him and his partisan friends occasionally fought Red Army too. It is not a very publicized fact but many Ukrainian partisans fought Red Army as well as Nazi Germany. Many people in Ukraine had similar feelings back than. Fighting did not stop in Ukraine untill several years after official end of WW2. Even when I was growing up, my grandfather disliked Soviet Union. I may not believe Internet but I do believe my grandfather.
 
If you want to measure brutality in % of killed people, general Lopez from Paraguay would be faaar on top of your list. During the war of 1865-1870, five sixths of the population died, and only one twentieth of the survivors were males older than 15.

And if Hitler / the Nazis had ruled for such a long time like the Commies (70 years in Russia, 40 in Eastern Europe, more than 50 in China) and such a big population (1 billion in China, 200+ million in the Sovjet union, maybe 100 million in other countries), we'd have many more victims. Hitler wanted Lebensraum for Germany in the East, which meant that he'd have to remove the Slavs from there. If the Nazis had won the war, today there wouldn't be "only" the genocide of the Jews, but also of the Poles, the Russians, the Ukrainians... In the book "If Hitler had won the war - the plans of the Nazis after the Endsieg" by Ralph Giordano I read a number of about 30 million Slavs they planned to kill (not counting those who'd be sent via the border to Siberia or those who wouldn't be born at all 'cause Hitler planned to sterilize millions of Slavs, too).

And if you're counting the victims in Russia and China, you maybe should deduct a bit 'cause I would bet that under a prolonged Czarist / Guomindang government there'd be many victims too (from hunger, diseases, poorness, the Ochrana, antisemite pogroms...), since at least every second czar wasn't what I'd call competent and the Guomindang government was quite corrupt.

That's why I'm feeling a bit puzzled about the fact that Stalin almost got twice the votes Hitler got.
 
"And if you're counting the victims in Russia and China, you maybe should deduct a bit"

Why?

"And if you're counting the victims in Russia and China, you maybe should deduct a bit 'cause I would bet that under a prolonged Czarist / Guomindang government there'd be many victims too (from hunger, diseases, poorness, the Ochrana, antisemite pogroms...), since at least every second czar wasn't what I'd call competent and the Guomindang government was quite corrupt."

The Czar fell to democratic socialists under Kerensky (who was in turn ousted by the Bolsheviks). Pogroms, the Okhrana, etc. are a non-issue, since Kerensky didn't have any of those. I read when Kerensky assumed power, the secret files of the Okrana were opened up and revealed to the public (just as, after Communists fell in 1991, the secret files of the KGB were revealed).

Besides, the WORST pogroms in the history of Russia were during the Civil War in Ukraine (the Cossacks bear most of the onus, though the Whites and Bolsheviks have their share of Jewish blood on their hands); those killed between 500,000 and 1.5 million people. Stalin killed between 20 and 40 million. The difference of scale is staggering.

The Kuomintang seem to have done a good long-term job with Taiwan, even though during their period of rule in China they were crass to a massive extent (and may have killed up to 10 million people, largely through brutal treatment of military conscripts). Perhaps the shock of losing 90% of their country forced them to tighten up a bit.

Despising Communism doesn't indicate a preference for monarchism, corrupt pseudo-republicanism, or Nazism.

"If you want to measure brutality in % of killed people, general Lopez from Paraguay would be faaar on top of your list. During the war of 1865-1870, five sixths of the population died, and only one twentieth of the survivors were males older than 15"

I've never heard of him; maybe I'll take a Latin American history course next semester. He doesn't sound like a very nice guy, though. Could you describe him more?

I think we're going by absolute #s here, though Santa Anna ended up on the list somehow.
 
I picked Hitler because, AFAIK, he is the only one who targeted significant populations for TOTAL annihilation just because they were that population, even if a member was enthusiastically supportive of him (not that many were, but you get the idea).
 
Ian, thank for you excellent discussion about the differences between genocide and other types of mass murder, with which I completely agree. In fact, as you describe it, perhaps the Japanese Imperial Army might be a better candidate for sheer "brutality" than either Uncle Joe or Adolf (although there may have been some genocidal aspects to the Japanese treatment of the Chinese, I don't know). I guess a lot of this is terminlogical, but I would still argue that Stalin and/or Mao's regimes' approach to social engineering qualifies better for "brutality", exactly because these leaders considered the deaths of millions a negligible side effect of their economic policies. Crude brutality (the Commies) is one thing, deliberate genocide (Hitler) is a lot worse. But its all bad, and none of it can or should be be excused.
 
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