Look to the West: Thread III, Volume IV (Tottenham Nil)!

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Thande

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Also, keep up the excellent work. I know it won't be long before I'm hooked on your TL again:eek:
Thanks--I had hoped to get another update up by now, but real life intervened. It's there in my head though and as soon as my head stops spinning from all this cough medicine I'm on I'll get it down on paper, figuratively speaking.
 
Actually, an ideological state based around ethnic identity very well could employ slavery. It's likely an extreme case only seen in the most out there of Societist states, but let's not pretend that it's not entirely possible. Or alternate strands of the same ideology - Communism, Anarchism, Mutualism, and the modern Green movement are all considered socialist ideologies but they are almost farther apart than they are from classical capitalist systems. And then you have to consider that just because one is considered a Societist state doesn't mean one actually employs Societist policies - look at the modern PRC. So again let's not say that slavery is something that absolutely couldn't be a Societist practice until Thande says otherwise.

Except Societists are explicitly NOT based on ethnic identity. They are based on renouncing ethnic identity, and replacing it with identity within 'Society', which appears to be a giant world-wide supernation--at least within the fondest dreams of dedicated Societists.

Also I never said the Societists absolutely don't practice slavery--I said the meme that they do and it is part of the ideology has next-to-no basis in what's been written. (And that they are Linnean Racists is specifically contradicted by the text.) It may be they do--it may be they do not. My personal suspicions is they do not--or at least they do not practice slavery as "slavery". As I noted, there's just as good a chance--arguably a better chance--that the Diversicans are the ones with a slavery-practicing minority.
 
Naturally we are all somewhat blinded by OTL bias on this: the choice of identity as the alternative 'all-defining issue' on my part is clearly influenced by the fact that it is the only occasional competitor to economics in OTL when defining political spectra and historical interpretation. Two OTL examples of identity dominating over wealth to define a political landscape and historical interpretation are Northern Ireland and Belgium. But in OTL these are regarded as aberrations, at least so long as the West remains the dominant contributor of ideas to global interpretations of history. My point is that there are probably thousands of alternative issues that could become the 'all-defining one' people fight ideological wars to the death over, it's just that identity is probably the easiest one for us to see and thus the obvious choice for me to write about.

I think a lot of this has to do with the rise of the nation-state, though. In a nation-state where the vast majority of the population speaks one language and belongs to one culture (more or less), you don't have the foundation for a domestic spectrum of identity politics. Belgium is an exception precisely because this isn't true for them - and while most of Ireland speaks English now, the Catholic vs Protestant conflict has its roots in a conflict between Scots settlers and Irish natives. In the absence of a well-defined 'other' within the state to define one's identity against, the political spectrum becomes dominated by conflicts between factions of the majority group - which will be inevitably influenced by economics, since their relative power and status will to a large degree be dependent on them.

I would say we did in fact have a political spectrum primarily dominated by identity - in the 18th and 19th centuries, when Europe and colonies were having the great nationalist sorting-out, and persisting in places up to the present day. Liberalism had its ideological foundations in ethnic solidarity - Germany for the Germans, instead of for aristocrats and foreigners...

It seems to me Societism and Diversitarianism would have a lot more room to have a hearing in a world full of multi-national empires - which may well be where you're going.
 
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Really all these points go together: one of the main themes of this work is to expound my view that people in OTL tend to waaaaay overrate the importance of economic issues when attempting to interpret history and politics, something which of course our friend Karl Marx is largely responsible for: even his enemies basically allow him to set the playing field and argue within his own defined boundaries, rather than suggesting that that's not the only game in town to start with. I'm going for something roughly analogous here, with the primary 'theory of history' being based on identity rather than wealth, Sanchez as the loose analogue to Marx and his Diversitarian opponents again allowing him to define what the game is and playing it against him, rather than just saying 'actually maybe identity just isn't such the important all-defining issue you say it is to start with?'

Naturally we are all somewhat blinded by OTL bias on this: the choice of identity as the alternative 'all-defining issue' on my part is clearly influenced by the fact that it is the only occasional competitor to economics in OTL when defining political spectra and historical interpretation. Two OTL examples of identity dominating over wealth to define a political landscape and historical interpretation are Northern Ireland and Belgium. But in OTL these are regarded as aberrations, at least so long as the West remains the dominant contributor of ideas to global interpretations of history. My point is that there are probably thousands of alternative issues that could become the 'all-defining one' people fight ideological wars to the death over, it's just that identity is probably the easiest one for us to see and thus the obvious choice for me to write about.

With that in mind, I enjoy it when people sometimes criticise LTTW as not being economically well grounded, for example suggesting that country X could not be as powerful as it is painted as being on economic grounds, because it shows me that I am writing the way I want to write. People in TTL would find it a very alien attitude to suggest that a country's power and influence is so tied to its economic potential (resources, industrial output, etc.), and also would find the ways in which we measure it to be rather strange. You can see similar examples of philosophical disconnect just within OTL if you vary viewpoints based on chronological time back and forth rather than parallel timelines side to side. The obvious one being that people back in the 17th century or so would find our notion that there is no fixed amount of trade in the world that countries must compete over to be completely mad.

Similarly, modern historical interpretations of things like, say, the revocation of the Edict of Nantes almost always take the tone of 'Louis XIV was foolish to do this because it meant most of the Huguenots went to England, thus depriving France of these educated industrious people and gifting them to France's enemy'. This is not an interpretation that can be found in works about the incident written prior to the 19th century when the ideological ideas the assumption is based on were concocted. It is equally valid to say 'Louis XIV was wise to do this because it purified France's national identity, tying the newly centralised state to religious conformity, and allowed the Bourbons to make realistic threats to the Papacy that they might break with Rome and create a national state church, giving them greater influence when seeking to alter the balance of power within Europe with Papal backing'. But you'll never hear this said nowadays, because it is just assumed that France's economic power is intrinsically more important than the coherency of France's identity, as though there are no circumstances in which having the latter would objectively benefit French interests more than the former. Again, identity is probably far from the only issue in which you could draw this distinction, it's just the most obvious one to me because of how OTL has shaped our minds.

So here, via the extracts from the in-timeline books, I am not only presenting a world in which history has gone differently, but where historiography has gone differently as well, and people do not necessarily focus on the same things we do when seeking to interpret the currents of history. Is that clear?

I'm afraid I made a bit of a straw man of myself by limiting my reference to economics, when my typical objections are economics and demographics, but that's neither here nor there.

That above does certainly clarify what you're going for much more clearly, and expresses where you're coming from in your answers, but it doesn't do justice to the people raising the issue of economics (or demographics) in your timeline.

What may well for your creative purposes be a single point, represents two or arguably three very distinct positions that are being raised by the readership (though I'll try to mostly just speaking for myself). [1] There is indeed the timeline bias which you use to express events in a manner carefully both alien to your readers and internally consistent. But economies were described by Marx, not invented by him - [2] asking how certain events are possible in economic terms is as valid in LTTW as in any TL, and is questioned much more often than is the substance of your thesis - people take Societism-Diversitarianism largely for granted. And finally, [3] there's the difficulty of paralleling the extremities of policy and philosophy between the two timelines.

The main issue is conflating the first and second points. Some who have criticized the economics of the TL are probably coming at it from a framework of class. And after all, that's what Marxist economics has inculcated into the OTL worldview. I say "probably" because I can't recall any besides Shevek, and he doesn't dwell on it himself. So if someone is demanding to know how to align the history in this timeline with "Menshevik" doctrine.... I suppose I've just ignored them.

You'll note that that's not been the basis of any of my economic questions. I haven't been the only one asking about non-Marxist economics either. Having in-timeline sources dismiss the importance of economics is more than fine; it's part of crafting a world and one of the timeline's greatest strengths. But when the author and the OTL viewpoint characters have no explanation for events that would seem economically improbable.... Well, that's another matter entirely, and any back-patting over the latter is sorely misplaced.

A focus on a world that thinks in terms of national identity / the lack thereof, instead of class identity / the lack thereof, can and should be explored. And may I say I trust you to do it some real justice. But that doesn't necessarily make economic criticism proof of success. A timeline with steamboats running up and down the Plata needs to have an answer ready for where the fuel came from, regardless of whether even the very concept of economics exists.

Likewise, no matter how inconsequential it might seem to in-timeline historians, the cotton gin defined the historical industrial revolution. If you want an alternate, more power to you, but the priorities of those alternate historians (oh dear*) don't bear on the practicalities. Heavier early industrialization running on wool with a sideline of armaments would have drastic implications for the nature of the societies involved. As much as economists might be fringe figures and the economics themselves under-explored, that doesn't preclude the inevitable knock-on effects. It just demands that they be explained by the "local" historiography in different terms. They'll still be there.

And the third point, on which I'm very willing to be corrected: For all the extremities of the Communism-Capitalism debate, there weren't excesses quite as dramatic as those we see in the Societism-Diversitarian conflict. People changed their opinions some, their rhetoric a lot, certainly their voting patterns, and then.... Nothing. Upwards of 99% of everyone (in America, say) went on to live day to day exactly as they would have otherwise.

Of course, I half hope you can prove me wrong on this last point, but I don't see it.

* ATL historians? Do we have terminology for this?

Edit: Just realized that you did answer my question about South America. By implication at least. Well played.
 
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Yeah but to a lot of people it sounds more like a honey coated nightmare.
I don't mean to start a big thing about this, but to me that seems like a thoroughly bizarre mindset some people have -- where even what is explicitly intended as a utopian dream (hell, the song's even called "Imagine") has them furrowing their brows and demanding to know what Lennon's real game is. Once I came across an online discussion where a combination of overly-literal-mindedness and an echo chamber effect had lead people to start speculating if Lennon had written the song specifically to bring about a brutal repressive dictatorship through violent revolution. Seriously, that actually happened.

I mean, I really don't understand people who hear what basically amounts to "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if everyone in the world could just, like, get along and share stuff, and we didn't all have to fight and kill each other, and we could all just, like, do whatever we wanted?" and interprets it as "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if I STEAL YOUR SOUL!!!"
 
I must say I am at loss of idea for yet another dichotomy besides those two... This is absolutely fascinating. Any suggestions?

Federal and unitary democracy. In a world where every developed power was fundamentally democratic, it would be easy to see philosophical conflict arising over the two. Is democratic China the tyranny of the majority, or is the American system (occasionally) denying the will of the people?
 
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Thande

Donor
I'm afraid I made a bit of a straw man of myself by limiting my reference to economics, when my typical objections are economics and demographics, but that's neither here nor there.

If you have something to say about demographics, please speak up--I admit I have sometimes got this wrong in the TL through ignorance. And of course this is a vital subject considering the basis of the historiographical position here we were discussing.

Admiral Matt said:
Likewise, no matter how inconsequential it might seem to in-timeline historians, the cotton gin defined the historical industrial revolution. If you want an alternate, more power to you, but the priorities of those alternate historians (oh dear*) don't bear on the practicalities. Heavier early industrialization running on wool with a sideline of armaments would have drastic implications for the nature of the societies involved. As much as economists might be fringe figures and the economics themselves under-explored, that doesn't preclude the inevitable knock-on effects. It just demands that they be explained by the "local" historiography in different terms. They'll still be there.
I'm not saying you're not wrong about this, I just don't really have the grounding to consider what the differences might be (and to be honest I don't find it an interesting subject), so I tend to paper over them wherever possible. Helped by the fact that the development of the industrial revolution in TTL after the first decade of the 19th century is already affected by completely separate factors, i.e. states playing a much more dominant role in whether to encourage (Britain) or discourage (Austria) industrial development than was the case at this point in OTL due to it being viewed as a more ideologically charged matter.

If you do have some ideas on what such an alternate development would look like, do speak up by all means. As I say, I don't have a whole lot of preference--I will cheerfully ignore an economic criticism if it was going to prevent me from doing something which is a main focus of the TL, but on any other matter I would be quite happy to let yourself or others speculate on what such developments might look like and incorporate it into the TL.
 
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I think a lot of this has to do with the rise of the nation-state, though. In a nation-state where the vast majority of the population speaks one language and belongs to one culture (more or less), you don't have the foundation for a domestic spectrum of identity politics. Belgium is an exception precisely because this isn't true for them - and while most of Ireland speaks English now, the Catholic vs Protestant conflict has its roots in a conflict between Scots settlers and Irish natives. In the absence of a well-defined 'other' within the state to define one's identity against, the political spectrum becomes dominated by conflicts between factions of the majority group - which will be inevitably influenced by economics, since their relative power and status will to a large degree be dependent on them.

I would say we did in fact have a political spectrum primarily dominated by identity - in the 18th and 19th centuries, when Europe and colonies were having the great nationalist sorting-out, and persisting in places up to the present day. Liberalism had its ideological foundations in ethnic solidarity - Germany for the Germans, instead of for aristocrats and foreigners...

It seems to me Societism and Diversitarianism would have a lot more room to have a hearing in a world full of multi-national empires - which may well be where you're going.

Quite. It seems as if Italy and Germany have a foundation that might actually preclude unification, something that would have enormous implications for Western thought. South America, and to a much lesser extent (see Quebec) North America, have also been rendered environments more liable to Societist-type thought than in OTL. The same could be said of the remnants of Hapsburg Europe, and the Ottomans, if they retain the Balkans.

Put all that up next to the rest of the world, and the concept of nations becomes a real question. It's not like it was a real fit in the first place, not for the facts on the ground in India or Africa. Even China and Russia were too muddled to apply nationalism easily.
 
I didn't open with criticism because I didn't want to start out arguing. But it is your thread, so alright.

If you have something to say about demographics, please speak up--I admit I have sometimes got this wrong in the TL through ignorance. And of course this is a vital subject considering the basis of the historiographical position here we were discussing.

I think we discussed the North American natives in the last thread. They seem to have been rescued by positive political relationships with the Empire, Carolinian focus on the Caribbean, and the enormous delay on the cotton gin. But only the latter relates to the main reason they were displaced in OTL: demographics. The same number of Indians and a larger number of whites should have resulted in the Cherokee Empire and "Howden" being sliced and diced into a patchwork of legally united communities on less-desirable land. The decades long cotton gin delay - by "vested interests" that stood to gain from its invention - is another matter.

The really big demographic question coming up is the UPSA, and South America in general. The continent was enormously behind in natural population growth and immigration until quite late in the game. You have diverted to it most of the USA's ideological immigrants and some of it's Catholics, but the numbers don't yet seem to add up to something that would be taken as a credible threat outside its own continent. Obviously there are good reasons to avoid being tied down by that kind of difficult minutia, but given the OTL relative numbers it's a real question.

I'm not saying you're not wrong about this, I just don't really have the grounding to consider what the differences might be (and to be honest I don't find it an interesting subject), so I tend to paper over them wherever possible. Helped by the fact that the development of the industrial revolution in TTL after the first decade of the 19th century is already affected by completely separate factors, i.e. states playing a much more dominant role in whether to encourage (Britain) or discourage (Austria) industrial development than was the case at this point in OTL due to it being viewed as a more ideologically charged matter.

If you do have some ideas on what such an alternate development would look like, do speak up by all means. As I say, I don't have a whole lot of preference--I will cheerfully ignore an economic criticism if it was going to prevent me from doing something which is a main focus of the TL, but on any other matter I would be quite happy to let yourself or others speculate on what such developments might look like and incorporate it into the TL.

On the one hand, I will always be happy to offer what suggestions I have. I mean, obviously - it's a Great Work of the Board, and right in the middle of my favorite periods. So I'll do what I can, though it may not be much. I'm hardly an expert myself, outside of areas that have come up in research for very specific purposes and what I've learned in conversations with a few genuine enthusiasts on the site. On the other hand.... Put it this way: If I stapled functioning Cavourite to the periodic table in my timeline, where would you think I should put it? Would it matter how much I asked for chemistry advice on other matters?

Double negative FTW, by the way.
 
And the third point, on which I'm very willing to be corrected: For all the extremities of the Communism-Capitalism debate, there weren't excesses quite as dramatic as those we see in the Societism-Diversitarian conflict. People changed their opinions some, their rhetoric a lot, certainly their voting patterns, and then.... Nothing. Upwards of 99% of everyone (in America, say) went on to live day to day exactly as they would have otherwise.

I've been making the same point in my own clumsy way. This doesn't look like the Communist Bloc vs. the West--it looks like the Communist Bloc vs. the Fascist Bloc, an extremist ideology fighting an extremist reaction to itself. Now, I've no doubt the average inhabitant of a nation is living his or her life with very little thought for the crazy up top, save for the occasional feeling of inconvienance--but that doesn't change the fact that both factions are heavily ideological...
 
‘...it was not until the 1969 Conference that it was upheld by all parties that the old ‘Russian’ heavyhanded approach to censorship, simply trying to destroy all traces of banned works, was doomed to failure and indeed often counterproductive, making a work a forbidden fruit and attracting hordes of rebellious youth to it...the Iverson Proposal, adopted in 1978 under the name Propagation Protocol A, instead sees endless copies of the work published and readily available, sometimes forcing children to read it in schools...while the work is always published with co-commentary demolishing each of the author’s points in turn, the real power of the Protocol is to turn what could be a dangerous book into something repellently boring, whether it be dull schoolwork or the lunatic on the corner forcing a tract into your hand...something you would never want your conscious mind to touch. And so the virus of Societism is contained and the will of Sanchez frustrated...’

vs.

“If you take something from a man he will crave it, but when you leave it lying in the open he will eventually grow bored of it”
-President Napoleon Bonaparte (D-398)

Further proof that you are reading my mind Thande. :p
 
Another issue is that Diversitarian seems really... postmodern. I'd be interested in seeing how philosophy progresses TTL. The postmodernist turn was in part a reaction to the failure of modernism to achieve its utopian goals; here it's in reaction to an ideology that, from what we've seen of it so far, seems to only be a utopia for the upper classes. I'm not sure how that would effect philosophical development but it seems like it would. I think there would definitely be a lot of attention paid to Gramscian ideas of cultural hegemony by Diversitarian theorists.

I do find it hard to think there isn't a significant economic component to these ideologies, though. Economics and identity politics are inextricably intertwined - just look at the fates of middlemen minorities like European Jews or diaspora Chinese to see that, or how racism was used to discourage solidarity between white indentured servants and African slaves in the Americas. People of TTL may see economics as a tool of identity rather than vice versa, but it's going to be there. By temperament, I feel like the Societists would be inclined to something like Japanese-style corporatism (the elites know best after all) while Diversitarians would be inclined to a laissez faire version of distributism (corporate consolidation prevents a free expression of ideas in the marketplace; also it's the reverse of those dastardly Societists so it must be good).
 
‘...it was not until the 1969 Conference that it was upheld by all parties that the old ‘Russian’ heavyhanded approach to censorship, simply trying to destroy all traces of banned works, was doomed to failure and indeed often counterproductive, making a work a forbidden fruit and attracting hordes of rebellious youth to it...the Iverson Proposal, adopted in 1978 under the name Propagation Protocol A, instead sees endless copies of the work published and readily available, sometimes forcing children to read it in schools...while the work is always published with co-commentary demolishing each of the author’s points in turn, the real power of the Protocol is to turn what could be a dangerous book into something repellently boring, whether it be dull schoolwork or the lunatic on the corner forcing a tract into your hand...something you would never want your conscious mind to touch. And so the virus of Societism is contained and the will of Sanchez frustrated...’

vs.

“If you take something from a man he will crave it, but when you leave it lying in the open he will eventually grow bored of it”
-President Napoleon Bonaparte (D-398)

Further proof that you are reading my mind Thande. :p

The funny thing is, while it's a manifest truth that could have been applied at almost any time in OTL, I'm not aware of any time it was actually attempted. For most countries that came close it was the sort of cynical thing someone muttered under their breath when they'd given up on curtailing free speech. Except I suppose the OTL English Communists come close - I recall some of their publications were completely dependent on the British secret service to remain solvent.

Anyone know of other examples? Or is this sort of a Britishism?
 
so is the next update going to also be in India or elsewhere? I'm really interested in what's happening in the ENA and UPSA.
 
I'll note that OTL, we had capitalisms both democratic and not, and old-fashioned monarchies and strong-man states only very weakly invested in the ideological conflicts of the cold war. I would imagine in look-to-the-west world there are a number of states which are nominally diversitarian or societist which however are only counted as such for the purpose of keeping a tally and drawing threatening colors on maps - states where in practice comparatively little of the "proper" societist or diversitarian program is being carried out: dictatorships of one sort or another, mostly, but perhaps also some semi-democratic states in which the diversitarian programme is just too much work and stress... :)

Bruce
 
Personally, i'd like to see more of the Mauré, myself. It may not be New Zealand, as such, but *shrugs*

In OTL they came very close to getting off the ground economically and developing rapidly in their own right, only for Australia (their mane export market and source of new stuff at the time) to suffer a depression, crippling the system before it developed sufficiently to function under it's own power. NZ would have been a much weirder place had that worked out instead. (not that it didn't have plenty of weirdness Anyway. two completely incompatible methods of waging war running into each other, backed by two different cultures and societies that don't quite mesh properly... let's see... war started by a flag poll being repeatedly cut down and re-erected, war started by building a Road, war about, at least in part, the establishment of a Maori King (the title still exists and it's holder is a fairly significant person, socially, though it has no official power of any sort) trench warfare, conducted Properly, all the lessons learned lost by the british colonial office prior to WW1 before even getting to the military leaders.... on and on it goes.) that's not a pure economic thing, either. it lead directly into a bunch of social and identity stuff ... (fun fact: the iconic Maori marae? yeah, that's a post western influence thing. the first instances of the construction of meeting houses like that were Maori Christian churches. (the pulpit, such as it was, was in the middle of one of the long sides and the congregation sat on the floor around it.) before that, Maori buildings were usually little more than huts.)

i lost where i was going... but yeah, the Maori were setting up mills and farms and all sorts of fun stuff mostly on their own, organised in a way that Actually Worked with their culture etc. a lot of demographic issues which triggered other things came from that grand experiment running aground....

... ... ... this is one of those times when i wish i were better at remembering and presenting these bits of information and thoughts coherently.

so, yeah. I want to see what happens there.

Yapon (or, failing that, the Russian Ninja ( i can't remember the spelling), or at least popular culture surrounding them) would be the next most interesting bit to me.

great to see this back, either way.
 

Thande

Donor
Apologies there hasn't been another chapter yet. I had hoped to start pumping them out on a regular basis as soon as I begun, but almost immediately after writing the first one I came down with a bad case of the flu which threw a spanner in the works. I also have work responsibilities, and I also need to finish a project for BlackWave first. But it is coming.
 
Apologies there hasn't been another chapter yet. I had hoped to start pumping them out on a regular basis as soon as I begun, but almost immediately after writing the first one I came down with a bad case of the flu which threw a spanner in the works. I also have work responsibilities, and I also need to finish a project for BlackWave first. But it is coming.

I was on facebook too long before returning because I was searching for the like button.:eek::p
 
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