Look to the West: Thread III, Volume IV (Tottenham Nil)!

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iirc isn't it Yapan ITTL?

Yapon, actually, I'm pretty sure. I think Thande has mentioned in the footnotes at some point that Japan ITTL is considered an anachronistic term like Siam, Burma and Persia are in OTL. Maybe the author is simply using it in a similar fashion?

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Asia looks like it's going to be pretty eventful in Look to the West. I think the trend of strong, or at least relatively stable, native countries provides a much more interesting setting than "colonial empire gets X in this universe" (though there are exceptions, in my opinion; Russo-Lithuanian Walvis Bay is one of them :p). Granted, of course, the age of colonialism isn't yet finished, probably not by a long shot, but how places like *New Zealand are going to unfold without as heavy a hand as Europe hand in OTL is fascinating.

Which brings me to eastern Asia: I was wondering how the two Chinas were eventually going to resolve their mutually disagreeable position in regards to one another in the future; I do think that, given China's history towards unification, the split certainly won't be permanent. But that unification, whenever it happens, is going to be a very strange one. My gut tells me that if Beiqing doesn't change, it's likely to be left in the dust behind the Feng, if only because the latter is actively taking advantage of whatever it can buy.

Sichuan is in a really weird position; one wonders how long such a state with two hostile powers as neighbors. Then again, to try to re-annex the area would be admitting that it was never under either empire's control in the first place. How long the Liaodong Republic lasts is also another question: that's a side of the Yellow Sea not ruled by Beiqing, after all.

Looks like Burma got off surprisingly light and even Siam's bloody nose wasn't too bad, with hindsight. Still, makes me wonder if they won't be so concerned with trying to thrust into China any time in the near future. Why fight a larger foe when you can just make nice and turn your attentions elsewhere, after all? Poor Indochina (or at least *Vietnam) looks like it might be starting to fall under Feng control...

Coreans getting pushed into Yapon, eh? I foresee that being a net negative in the long term, especially when the Coreans eventually start to modernize more. Seems more like a question of how bloody the fighting will be (and how bad the reprisals are, if they're going to happen) once the Russian 'invincibility' myth is broken.

Speaking of Russia: how's the puppet Kingdom of Hawai'i doing, Thande? Cossack surfers is too amusing an image not to follow up on more. :p
 

Thande

Donor
Re the name of Japan: I think I mentioned this before, but in TTL "Japan" is considered an archaic name and "Yapon" the name used when talking about modern times. It's a bit like "Siam" vs. "Thailand" in OTL: some people will use Thailand all the time even when talking about the country in the 19th century, while others will use the more contemporarily used one of Siam. Or Persia/Iran is another OTL example.

My Username is Inigo Montoya said:
What strikes me is not that the writers clearly aren't objective, but that they don't even try to look balanced and apolitical. This is a major departure from OTL. Which begs the question of whether there is anything ITTL comparable to our concept of academic freedom (I'd tend to think it predates the PoD in the form of various privileges granted to universities, but I could be wrong)! You've got to compare this with the thousands of Marxist and otherwise left-leaning history books written during the Cold War in the West IOTL.
(The English interpretation of) Diversitarianism is a curious one because you're basically allowed (and indeed encouraged) to come up with any interpretation of history you like so long as it doesn't smack of Societism. This is obviously rather hard to enforce because how do you define Societism? There have been hints that the Russian interpretation of Diversitarianism leans more towards the paranoid side and sees Societism under the bed everywhere, so will set a more restrictive 'spectrum' for its historians to choose their biases and interpretations within.
 
(The English interpretation of) Diversitarianism is a curious one because you're basically allowed (and indeed encouraged) to come up with any interpretation of history you like so long as it doesn't smack of Societism.

Question: Does the Diversitarianist idea that there is no such thing as unbaised media and anything that claims to be so is probably Not To Be Trusted extend to domestic divisions, particularly in democratic states? I'd expect at least a political scene similar to early 20th century or early 21st century America, wherein most media is nakedly and proudly partisan, but given what we've seen ITTL I wouldn't be shocked if parties were encouraged to have their own militias or what have you.
 
Thande, what would the status of the rest of SE Asia be like? We haven't found out about the fates of the DEI and if Britain still has Malaya, or I'm sure Spain would have retained the Philippines at this point.
 
(The English interpretation of) Diversitarianism is a curious one because you're basically allowed (and indeed encouraged) to come up with any interpretation of history you like so long as it doesn't smack of Societism. This is obviously rather hard to enforce because how do you define Societism? There have been hints that the Russian interpretation of Diversitarianism leans more towards the paranoid side and sees Societism under the bed everywhere, so will set a more restrictive 'spectrum' for its historians to choose their biases and interpretations within.
Thanks for this enlightening answer :) I am wondering whether we will see Diversitarian-aligned countries with an all-too-Societist approach to government (ruthless centralisation, critical thinking and heterodoxy discouraged, economy in the hands of a few...), similar to OTL's "capitalist" countries where private property only existed at the dictator's sufferance and freedom of enterprise was a joke but they were valuable allies in the fight against communism.
 

Thande

Donor
Question: Does the Diversitarianist idea that there is no such thing as unbaised media and anything that claims to be so is probably Not To Be Trusted extend to domestic divisions, particularly in democratic states? I'd expect at least a political scene similar to early 20th century or early 21st century America, wherein most media is nakedly and proudly partisan, but given what we've seen ITTL I wouldn't be shocked if parties were encouraged to have their own militias or what have you.
Interesting insight, I'll have to think about that one.

Thande, what would the status of the rest of SE Asia be like? We haven't found out about the fates of the DEI and if Britain still has Malaya, or I'm sure Spain would have retained the Philippines at this point.

All of that was covered in Part #150, the last part of volume 3 :confused:
 

Thande

Donor
Here is the promised map. Gentlemen, start your border nitpicking engines!

I didn't put cities on as I ran out of time and it'd probably clutter it too much anyway, but I might go back and just put a few important ones on.

China 1841 3.png
 
Huh. It's been some hours since the Map went up and no comments. I suppose that for many of us, as in my case, this is largely because actually your text description of the situation was clear enough that we could pretty well visualize this map. It is very nice to have the map, since it clarifies the exact territories at a glance, but for China's situation there are no surprises, once we've read the text.

So, regarding China itself I have just one remark--Beiqing looks awfully vulnerable to Russia.

This may be an illusion, due to the thin presence of Russians in the Far East; behind that vast and encircling border for the most part Siberia is the The Big Empty, whereas Beiqing is the ancient core of China, highly populous and developed.

But Russian possession of Yapon and alliance with Corea, whatever that latter means, makes the situation much grimmer for Beiqing than OTL at Russia's maximum expansion. It depends on how closely aligned these territories are with Russian ambitions; if Corea is a very loose ally of convenience, the Russians have to walk softly, especially if Yapon is in any way difficult to hold due to fractious rebelliousness. The Coreans probably are at the very least wary of letting further Russian advances encircle them.

Some readers seemed to think for Corea to ally with Russia at all at this stages foreshadows their eventual swallowing up in the empire, and it certainly might.

The Feng are also rather beleaguered, but the powers closely surrounding them are more divided; four Asian powers, none of them closely aligned with European allies, are the main threat on land, and Hainan and Taiwan are indicated to belong to European powers.

(The main improvements to the map I would suggest would be to at least indicate the location and names of the capital cities, and to clarify which European powers hold which islands. I seem to recall Taiwan (called Formosa by Europeans at this point still) was Dutch but the Dutch have been expelled and now it's some sort of co-dominium of a committee of other European powers).

By elimination, I gather Meridian, that is, unless my LTTW memories are very confused and rusty, the USPA, holds the Philippines, or at least Luzon, whose northern extremity shows on the map. I vaguely recall some shenanigans going on regarding who holds those islands resulting from the Spanish reorganization, the formation of the new federal kingdoms in America, and even--very vaguely!--a Meridian expedition in the course of one of USPA's wars with this federal empire that seized the Philippines, from I believe Portugal, which had assumed the islands from their puppet-Spain.

So now my nitpicking the map leads me pretty much off it completely and out of China too, into yet more "update! update! we wanna know more about X!" Where X is, the Meridian regime in the Philippines!

How does that work out?

OTL, the Spanish were able to hold the islands with a relatively small investment of force; their major problem was to deter other European powers from trying to seize some or all of them, and that didn't always work--the British held Manila and perhaps at least nominally all of Luzon for some time in the 18th century I believe. And of course in the end the islands were taken by a predatory Great Power on the make.

But there was also internal unrest to consider; originally getting loose control over the archipelago was helped by the fact that the peoples of the Philippines were in no sense closely united; I believe there are more than 5 major language groups on just Luzon alone, or something like that. It was mostly accomplished with missionaries, by mainly a process of persuasion that gradually gave the Spanish enough native auxiliary forces so that rebellion in one region could be put down with soldiers from another. And realizing the weakness of their position, and the great distance to Spain (Spanish communications went via Mexico and across the Pacific, since the other route through the Indian Ocean was deemed Portugal's assigned hemisphere by the Treaty of Tordesillas) they did not seek to unify the islands, or impose Spanish language or culture, because the fragmentation of the native peoples remained a mainstay of administration. Numerous missionary orders, each specializing in a particular language group, remained the priesthood (and most of imperial authority) for centuries; they did not teach their "flocks" Spanish for the most part, nor recruit natives into the priesthood.

Still gradually some shared culture of being islanders together versus the Spanish did develop, largely organized around syncretic religious movements; these could lead to major rebellions that were quite hard to suppress.

So what I'm wondering is, how the Meridians have found the situation and what they are doing about it?

First of all all the upheaval, with Manila being tossed from one rival Iberian claimant to another, must have agitated the more marginally peaceful communities, perhaps inspired yet another charismatic prophet-leader to come forward in the countryside.

Then in come the Meridians, this timeline's real analogs of the USA of OTL. But different--the USPA is a federal union not only of a bunch of immigrants from Europe, but also native peoples--from small tribes to big empires. Ideologically they are democrats and champions of the common man.

This could lead to the Filipinos spinning completely out of control as they take the ball and run with it--it might even have something to do with the rise of Societiesm in USPA, if there is a colonial fiasco.

But maybe the Meridian ideology works to encourage the Filipinos to adhere to the union, as respected partners of a diverse federal state?

This question was orginally prompted by seeing Meridian mentioned on the China map, and wondering just how much access USPA has to China. If the Philippines are a distant and very doubtfully held territory for them, they wouldn't have much. But if the Philippines are evolving into an integral USPA territory, with its peoples coming around to ideological commitment to membership in USPA, the islands can indeed be a springboard for major interventions.

That after all is what the Spanish hoped when they first made the effort to incorporate the place way back in the 16th century--a channel to China. And that was part of what Americans hoped to get out of the place when they took it from Spain just before the 20th century. Few conquerors would be moved to make the effort to seize the archipelago on its own merits, they were generally thinking of its strategic location, with an eye to further conquests of one sort or another.

I'd have to go back and read why the USPA took Luzon in the first place to have a better clue what is likely going on the minds of Meridians today, but some kind of imperial/mechantile adventure does not seem out of bounds.

Regardless of the state of Meridian/Filipino relations, these ambitions may still have been behind it and might hold even if the Philippine countryside is currently wracked with quasi-religious rebellions. But they are likely to be much stronger if the Filipinos are coming around to identifying with Meridian.

And a successfully assimilated Philippines might also be the basis of the rise of Societism in USPA; Meridian society already has some expertise in being a meta-society incorporating many languages and distinct peoples, swallowing up the Philippines will strongly extend that flexibility and underscore the point that despite differences in appearance and language and custom, people are one. Whether further adventures into China or other territories are rebuffed, or successful, the USPA approach to overseas empire might be much more oriented toward co-option and recruitment of diverse peoples, on a bottom-up model--no treaties or deals with local princes, instead champion democratic revolution against all established powers, and then foster a new republic to join USPA as a new state.
 
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I'm just surprised by how little the Feng hold, and what they do have is mostly resource poor mountains and lots of tropical jungles. Without a population base anywhere near that of Beiqing's I don't see how they can hold out once the final push comes, unless they have some absolutely brilliant field commanders. I mean they don't even hold the Yangtze.. :eek:

I suppose I had originally thought of them as an earlier, more Western Taiping, but in reality they look more like a more successful Tiandihui (that is ultimately doomed to fail).
 

Thande

Donor
I mean they don't even hold the Yangtze.. :eek:

Well if you read the update, the point is that nobody holds the Yangtze.

I deliberately did not distinguish between different European trading companies on the map, partly to give it a Chinese feel of 'bah, they're all the same anyway' and partly because there may be more changes leading up to 1841 and I don't want to spoil them.
 

Thande

Donor
But the Beiqing at least have the Yellow River, and the North China plain is an agricultural gold mine. They'll have more people than the Feng ever could have.

You're thinking in too modern terms here: most of those people the Beiqing "have" are peasants who don't really know or care who their Emperor is and certainly wouldn't fight or die of their own accord to determine whether he rules all of China or not. What will really determine the outcome of China's division (if there is a reunification, of course) is the relative stability, organisation and modernisation of the two sides. Look at the OTL Chinese Civil War for that matter and the relative fortunes of the KMT and the Communists from where they started out.
 
You're thinking in too modern terms here: most of those people the Beiqing "have" are peasants who don't really know or care who their Emperor is and certainly wouldn't fight or die of their own accord to determine whether he rules all of China or not. What will really determine the outcome of China's division (if there is a reunification, of course) is the relative stability, organisation and modernisation of the two sides. Look at the OTL Chinese Civil War for that matter and the relative fortunes of the KMT and the Communists from where they started out.

I'm thinking in terms of the Taiping, who lost, among other reasons but primarily, due to the massive difference in population between the two sides. I won't argue further, you're easily one of the best writers we have here so I'll differ to your judgement in your own TL, but I think you're giving into a 'modernization' bias and assuming that the state which essentially Westernizes first should win, which wasn't always the case IOTL. Something to chew on for further updates at least. </twocents>
 
I'm thinking in terms of the Taiping, who lost, among other reasons but primarily, due to the massive difference in population between the two sides. I won't argue further, you're easily one of the best writers we have here so I'll differ to your judgement in your own TL, but I think you're giving into a 'modernization' bias and assuming that the state which essentially Westernizes first should win, which wasn't always the case IOTL. Something to chew on for further updates at least. </twocents>
I thought the Taiping mostly lost because they had no idea what they were doing for domestic policy and had no friends at all, while the Feng here have decent terms with Europe and seem pretty organised.
 
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