Like in Olden Days: The Rise of Heathen Europe

[DanMcCollum]

I was wondering; what sources are you using for information about the Saxons of this era? I am going to be turning my eyes across the Rhine in my Amalingian TL sometime in the near future, and would love to know of any good secondary sources about the topic!

On a side note, I know this is just starting, but I'm really enjoying the TL so far!

 

[Deleted member 67076]

so the premise of this TL is a europe full of pagans?

i'd rather be a pagan count me subbed. i know your gonna focus on europe mainly but it would be nice for zoroastrianism to be still somewhat prominent. also, we are gonna see a metric crapton of religious wars, with pagans, muslims, and christianity brawling each other.

Zoroastrian revival at this point is highly unlikely. The Abbasid Caliphate is at their apex.

 

[NKVD]

Subscribed.

“And who will lead besides you? Hessi of Eastphalia? Look at him! His eyes cannot leave that young man at yonder table. Perhaps if he could fuck Karl the Frank out of your lands, he would be a good leader.”

Guhehe

 

[Errnge]

so the premise of this TL is a europe full of pagans?

i'd rather be a pagan count me subbed. i know your gonna focus on europe mainly but it would be nice for zoroastrianism to be still somewhat prominent. also, we are gonna see a metric crapton of religious wars, with pagans, muslims, and christianity brawling each other.

Perhaps not all of Europe, but certainly more than, well, OTL. And yes, there will be religious wars, though I don't know if they will end evolve the same way we would recognize OTL.

I was wondering; what sources are you using for information about the Saxons of this era? I am going to be turning my eyes across the Rhine in my Amalingian TL sometime in the near future, and would love to know of any good secondary sources about the topic!

On a side note, I know this is just starting, but I'm really enjoying the TL so far!

Thank you.

Well, for basic overview I went to Wiki first to get my feet wet. From there I read up not only on biographies of Charlemagne, such as Einhart, but also on Norse sagas, who though not purely historical, do shed some light on the cultures we are dealing with. I've also been listening to some lectures on youtube from professors from Yale and other colleges that do me the great favor of putting their classes online without me having to pay to sit in on them

Zoroastrian revival at this point is highly unlikely. The Abbasid Caliphate is at their apex.

I was going to point this out, but you beat me to it

Subscribed.



Guhehe

Thank you thank you

 

[DanMcCollum]

Thank you.

Well, for basic overview I went to Wiki first to get my feet wet. From there I read up not only on biographies of Charlemagne, such as Einhart, but also on Norse sagas, who though not purely historical, do shed some light on the cultures we are dealing with. I've also been listening to some lectures on youtube from professors from Yale and other colleges that do me the great favor of putting their classes online without me having to pay to sit in on them

Ah! Youve been listening to the Yale Early Middle Ages course? I've veen dabbling in that one the past few weeks as well! I actually am listening to the New Testament course the last few days too! Gotta do something to keep stimulated at work

 

[Errnge]

Ah! Youve been listening to the Yale Early Middle Ages course? I've veen dabbling in that one the past few weeks as well! I actually am listening to the New Testament course the last few days too! Gotta do something to keep stimulated at work

Exactly that one! I think their pretty good, especially for getting context.

 

[Sh3ba]

Zoroastrian revival at this point is highly unlikely. The Abbasid Caliphate is at their apex.

kinda was looking more for zoroastrianism to be at least not screwed up severely. maybe a massive zoroastian migration to a new homeland?

 

[Errnge]

kinda was looking more for zoroastrianism to be at least not screwed up severely. maybe a massive zoroastian migration to a new homeland?

Not to rain on a parade, I find Zoroastrianism as interesting as the next guy, for this you'd need a much earlier POD, and one that isn't in Northern Europe with two (arguably three) very powerful religious blocks in between. It's hard to imagine how Charlemagne failing to subdue the Saxons would have immediate or timely affects on helping Zoroastrianism out. Especially when you look at what's going on in the Middle East at this time.

 

[Sh3ba]

Not to rain on a parade, I find Zoroastrianism as interesting as the next guy, for this you'd need a much earlier POD, and one that isn't in Northern Europe with two (arguably three) very powerful religious blocks in between. It's hard to imagine how Charlemagne failing to subdue the Saxons would have immediate or timely affects on helping Zoroastrianism out. Especially when you look at what's going on in the Middle East at this time.

i argee, but didnt the OP say he wouldnt focus entirely on europe or did i not see something like that?

back to europe, leave the pagans alone franks >:[

 

[Errnge]

i argee, but didnt the OP say he wouldnt focus entirely on europe or did i not see something like that?

back to europe, leave the pagans alone franks >:[

I don't recall saying anything like that. But who knows where this things gonna go in the long run

 

[Bavarian Raven]

Just found this TL. It's always nice to see a TL where my ancestors aren't slaughtered/brutalized/conquered by the Franks, , and to see my religion flourishing. Subscribed.

 

[Errnge]

This thread has a noted lack of pictures, unlike many of my other works. I think I'll leave this riiiiiight here. Yes, it looks good here. Works well with the composition of the room

 

[Sh3ba]

now go, guy who switched hats with a viking, go and fight the crossbearers! let the franks tremble in fear of your amazing switching abilities!

 

[Pururauka]

This I like. A lot.

Looking forward to seeing where you're headed.

 

[Deleted member 67076]

kinda was looking more for zoroastrianism to be at least not screwed up severely. maybe a massive zoroastian migration to a new homeland?

At best you can turn them into the Copts of Iran.

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

At best you can turn them into the Copts of Iran.

I would say ten percent still wouldn't be that bad. I wonder why certain populations seem to have converted to Islam more fully than others, but that's likely for another thread.

That said, Muslims did call the Heathen Norse magi, linking them with the native Iranian religion. Might be something there, a basis for toleration and common cause against Christianity? Based on that alone, unlikely, but they're also not likely to raid each other, while Christendom will get it from the north and south now.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

The Maniots in southern Greece were the last of their people to openly worship the Hellenic Pantheon. Their fellow Greeks, who were Christianized, insisted on calling themselves Rhomaioi (Romans), which, aside from already being Roman citizens, was the label they used to distinguish themselves from Greeks whom continued their ancestral tradition. Maniots continued to practice the ancient Greek religion up until the 11th century. They were able to do this for so long, as the Mani Peninsula due to its relative geographic isolation.

I also doubt that the assertion that "Paganism was in decline" is true. Its like saying that Catholicism was in decline in light of the Protestant movements that arose during the Reformation. It still has lots of adherents to this day. Ethnic native religions were actively suppressed and made illegal wherever rulers accepted Christianity.

If Germanic Polytheism is going to be this main vehicle for a continuing "pagan Europe", then you might try to give a name and a central theology which could eventually be written in a holy book. Making the religion more difficult to wipe out.

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

I also doubt that the assertion that "Paganism was in decline" is true. Its like saying that Catholicism was in decline in light of the Protestant movements that arose during the Reformation. It still has lots of adherents to this day. Ethnic native religions were actively suppressed and made illegal wherever rulers accepted Christianity.

If Germanic Polytheism is going to be this main vehicle for a continuing "pagan Europe", then you might try to give a name and a central theology which could eventually be written in a holy book. Making the religion more difficult to wipe out.

The highlighted is key. The Franks, and especially Charlemagne, gave harsh penalties to traditional practices wherever they ruled. The Scandinavian kings did likewise, reading the sagas of the two royal Olafrs, and civil wars in Sweden. Heathen practices had to be extirpated with fire and sword, because there was no popular opposition to them. England *might* have been more peaceful, but I don't know about Bede's reliability in this regard. Iceland's conversion was more or less peaceful in part because of how brutal Norwegian kings had been in bringing their people to Christianity. Even there, compromises were allowed in the early years, until the Church had been firmly embedded.

The recon part of me winces at this, but... it would be a plausible development and definitely increase the chances of a surviving and flourishing Germanic faith. Relatively minor change in worldview, probably still opposed by conservative elements (especially in places where Christianity isn't seen as a bigger threat, like Sweden) and adopted by kings to increase their power. As for a name, I'd suggest translating 'Old Tradition' or 'Our Custom' into Saxon. Written theology would be more difficult. I'd imagine more a collection of national and regional histories, origins of practices, lore, law, underpinning political and social traditions... but maybe I'm thinking too much into it. More a Tanakh-Talmud than a Gospel, if you get my drift. I'd caution against using either of the Eddas wholesale. Poetic has a few entries of questionable historicity (Rigsthula in particular) and Snorri tried to fit the Prose into a Med worldview, tracing the Aesir back to Troy to give his ancestors some classical dignity.

Uh, jeez, I tend to go on, don't I?

 

[Delvestius]

Uh, jeez, I tend to go on, don't I?

Good on it, it is important stuff that needs to be known to the world

 

[Errnge]

The Maniots in southern Greece were the last of their people to openly worship the Hellenic Pantheon. Their fellow Greeks, who were Christianized, insisted on calling themselves Rhomaioi (Romans), which, aside from already being Roman citizens, was the label they used to distinguish themselves from Greeks whom continued their ancestral tradition. Maniots continued to practice the ancient Greek religion up until the 11th century. They were able to do this for so long, as the Mani Peninsula due to its relative geographic isolation.

I also doubt that the assertion that "Paganism was in decline" is true. Its like saying that Catholicism was in decline in light of the Protestant movements that arose during the Reformation. It still has lots of adherents to this day. Ethnic native religions were actively suppressed and made illegal wherever rulers accepted Christianity.

If Germanic Polytheism is going to be this main vehicle for a continuing "pagan Europe", then you might try to give a name and a central theology which could eventually be written in a holy book. Making the religion more difficult to wipe out.

I guess the stretch will be to get non-Christian Germanic Pagans to adopt writing beyond mystic runes. But once that is done, I think there's ample evidence OTL that they'd be able to assemble what could be compiled into a series of holy texts. I personally think that state-run germanic religion seems to be the best avenue as kings often held a religious role as well as a legal and martial role in germanic society.

The highlighted is key. The Franks, and especially Charlemagne, gave harsh penalties to traditional practices wherever they ruled. The Scandinavian kings did likewise, reading the sagas of the two royal Olafrs, and civil wars in Sweden. Heathen practices had to be extirpated with fire and sword, because there was no popular opposition to them. England *might* have been more peaceful, but I don't know about Bede's reliability in this regard. Iceland's conversion was more or less peaceful in part because of how brutal Norwegian kings had been in bringing their people to Christianity. Even there, compromises were allowed in the early years, until the Church had been firmly embedded.

The recon part of me winces at this, but... it would be a plausible development and definitely increase the chances of a surviving and flourishing Germanic faith. Relatively minor change in worldview, probably still opposed by conservative elements (especially in places where Christianity isn't seen as a bigger threat, like Sweden) and adopted by kings to increase their power. As for a name, I'd suggest translating 'Old Tradition' or 'Our Custom' into Saxon. Written theology would be more difficult. I'd imagine more a collection of national and regional histories, origins of practices, lore, law, underpinning political and social traditions... but maybe I'm thinking too much into it. More a Tanakh-Talmud than a Gospel, if you get my drift. I'd caution against using either of the Eddas wholesale. Poetic has a few entries of questionable historicity (Rigsthula in particular) and Snorri tried to fit the Prose into a Med worldview, tracing the Aesir back to Troy to give his ancestors some classical dignity.

Uh, jeez, I tend to go on, don't I?

Good on it, it is important stuff that needs to be known to the world

Indeed. Very helpful stuff