Like in Olden Days: The Rise of Heathen Europe

By the way, speaking about "Heathen" or "Paganism" - it means that there will be "Paganic" knights doesn't it ?

I don't think that knights have to be limited to Christians; do they ?

Looking forward to see how "Paganic orders" of knights will turn out to be :)

I'm also looking forward to see Pagans organize themselves against Christianity; the more variety they have, the merrier it will be.

Something like the Pagans organized themselves in CK II.
 
Well, the philosopher was Georgius Gemistus (who's also referred to by the name Pletho), although I was misremembering, he was in the 14/15th centuries and only advocating a return to the Olympic pantheon instead of Christianity ... that, incidentally, got him exiled. Although it does say something about the popularity of the old religion ... as well as its penetration into the public conciousness.

As for paganism, I'm afraid I can't exactly provide sources. It gets referenced off-hand in a few sources. A sentence here or there. I looked through my books and found a reference to the Quinisext Council (held in 692) that officially condemned a large number of pagan practices, up to and including the wearing of masks of 'detestable Dionysus' during celebrations. Though whether these are merely the traditional trappings of ceremonies or genuine belief is unclear. Another reference is to archaeological finds of magical amulets that only started shifting invocations from pagan deities to saints and angels around the 7th/8th centuries. There was also a mention of John Zonaras, secretary to Alexios Komnenos remarking that Hellenic (pagan) practices remained wide-spread.

And that's about the sum total of what I can offer from what I have. It's not exactly an area that has received much attention from modern scholars, so it remains somewhat ... well, obscure.

Relevant bibliography does reference a few common works, but, as I haven't read any (nor do I have access to them, I checked ... you'd think a university library would have the useful, interesting stuffy, rather than the usual dry trash ;)), I can't guarantee that they'd be relevant to the topic. Anyways, they're:

R. MacMullen; Christianizing the Roman Empire (New Haven, 1984.)
A. Momigliano (ed.) ; The Conflict between Paganism and Christianity in the Fourth Century (Oxford, 1964.)

Hm. So at this time there might be a pagan minority in the outskirts of the Roman Empire. This could possibly lead to some interesting events with ATL Varangian type stuff... If that happens. Unsure.

Good start, you said the next update will be tomorrow?

Trying to crank out an update as we speak.

Myself, sacrificed for knowledge? I can dig it.

Godji is the Saxon cognate for gothi then? I should have mentioned, gothi also meant chief, it was just in Iceland where chiefs became district priests as well. The Saxons might have called their priests something different, but I won't quibble.

Valhalla was probably a Viking Age poetic invention, a sort of consolation prize for those who died on campaign and couldn't have their body returned to the ancestral lands. Again, I won't quibble because that is just an awesome speech. Also, as far as we can reconstruct arch-Heathen worship priorities, it probably went personal ancestors (as Berthoald mentioned), landwights (spirits of a place, although wight technically meant any being) and then the gods, but the Irminsul would definitely be a special place for the most important worship.

Very good show, sir!

I thought it was the other way around, where only in Iceland they were chiefs and everywhere else they were priests. You see the cognate to the English word God, so Gothi, Godji, etc. would be like saying "man of God" right?

Well, regrettably there isn't much information about Germanic Paganism that doesn't relate to the Norse variety, plus the Saxons were so close in proximity to the Danes, it is possible that the idea of Valhalla could have spread there by this time.

At that time, though, wouldn't it have more to do with the classical revival of the medieval scholastics (of whom Pletho was one) rather than an unbroken ancient tradition? I'm no expert on Pletho, but his paganism seems to have grown out of his own classical study and admiration for Hellenistic culture rather than out of anything he encountered in his early life or travels.

If anything, I'd expect there to be less of Pletho's sort of paganism in the eighth century - fewer scholarly eccentrics, and less classical study going on in that part of Europe. On the other hand, as you say, there would be more peasant survivals. That might not be enough to make a difference in the Mediterranean world, but could lead to interesting results in not-fully-Christianized places such as Britain - or, based on the foreshadowing of the prologue, maybe even parts of the Frankish kingdom.

Certainly. I recall reading that there was a drastic resurgence of paganism in England at the time of the Great Heathen Army and Danelaw amongst Anglo-Saxons living under Danish rule.

By the way, speaking about "Heathen" or "Paganism" - it means that there will be "Paganic" knights doesn't it ?

I don't think that knights have to be limited to Christians; do they ?

Looking forward to see how "Paganic orders" of knights will turn out to be :)

I'm also looking forward to see Pagans organize themselves against Christianity; the more variety they have, the merrier it will be.

Something like the Pagans organized themselves in CK II.

Well, depending on how you want to interpret it, Berserkers and other such warrior cults seem to have been just like what you are describing. Just, well, not knights. But they were warriors who dedicated their lives to the worship of a god or gods in their pantheon, and would call on them specifically for protection in battle, and had all kinds of bizarre rituals
 
I thought it was the other way around, where only in Iceland they were chiefs and everywhere else they were priests. You see the cognate to the English word God, so Gothi, Godji, etc. would be like saying "man of God" right?


Certainly. I recall reading that there was a drastic resurgence of paganism in England at the time of the Great Heathen Army and Danelaw amongst Anglo-Saxons living under Danish rule.

Eh, there was a joining of secular and religious authority to an extent, although that did fade toward the end. As in, the head of the household would be responsible to the powers for his family, a jarl for his district and a king for his realm. In Iceland there weren't kings or jarls, the highest class being descendants of west Norwegian hersar and the first settlers of the country. But, uh, yeah. Even today some Heathen orgs, the Troth in particular, refer to their trained clergy as godmen/godwomen.

To elaborate, an Icelandic gothi had both religious and political responsibilities, including building and maintaining a temple for public use. Mind, by temple I don't mean anything on the scale of Uppsala. Even after the conversion, gothar would build churches and take priests into their households (or make a priest of a son or brother).

Indeed, indeed. Even Canute felt the need to pass laws against leaving sacrifices at rocks and trees and worshiping sun, moon and fire, which is a pretty good indication that these things were still happening at least to the beginning of the eleventh century.
 
Oh God, I have a feeling I am going to love this one! As a fellow dabbler in early medieval timelines, I just have to wish you the best of luck and tell you that i can't wait to aee this develop further :)
 

Deleted member 67076

Good Saxons, remove Frank. Let Glorious Orthodoxy take the lions share of the converts.
 
why would Charles be speaking in French when everyone else was speaking in Frankish? At the time Frankish was the language of the Court.
Was he trying to make himself appear different?
 
why would Charles be speaking in French when everyone else was speaking in Frankish? At the time Frankish was the language of the Court.
Was he trying to make himself appear different?

He was speaking Latin. Because Charlemagne spoke Latin, as did most of the Carolingian court. In fact, he insisted upon reforms in an attempt to purify Vulgar Latin (ie proto-French) to make it more similar to the classical Latin. He, of course, failed, but he tried nonetheless.

EDIT: Although, Latin was not his first language, Frankish was, he spoke Latin in court. He did not speak Old Saxon, however, so either way there would have been a language barrier between him and his adversaries.
 
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They were still around, circa 8th century, albeit reduced in form. The cult of Isis was still going strong in mainland Greece (I presume it retained some draw as an exclusively-female faith in the face of a predominantly male-dominated church) and there were still Helennic worshippers on Crete during the Emirate of Crete about a cenutry later (I'm less certain of the claims that they constituted a majority of the population, though).

I'd be very surprised if this were the case, about Isis. Paganism certainly existed in mainland Greece in the later eighth century, but this was due to pockets of Sclavenes rather than any actual classical paganism, which was in decline even before the emergence of Christianity.

Yes, it's undoubtedly true that Church councils in the seventh century adopted a rather shrill and hectoring tone towards surviving pagan practises, and it's true that these practises did exist. But did the people practising them feel that they were anything other than solidly Christian? This, I have my doubts about, and I see no reason to imagine that Christianity was anything other than the majority faith across all of the territories of the old Roman Empire by the year 550 at the latest.

You're probably right. It was a mistake to bring him up (in my defence, I was misremembering when he was around ... I have a bad habit of doing that, I once answered on an exam that Justianian ruled in the 11th century), especially since, well, Pletho is really not particularly relevant to the discussion, he's some seven centuries away. The upper classes were solidly Christian or, more appropriately, closely connected to the Church. Pragmatism, at least initially, though it did foster genuine belief.

That said, Pletho was more of the type pining after the good old days, particularly since we're talking about the tail end of the Empire. A mixture of dissapointment and disillusionment with the existing order, rather than a continuation (I would presume the original faith might have survived that long in some obscure, nearly inaccessible village or two in the back end of nowhere, probably one of the Med islands, but that's hardly relevant or important). There was an intellectual fascination with the old Hellenic culture, though, particularly around Athens, but also the rest of the core territories of the old Hellenic city-states. It was, however, largely the domain of the Church and paganism wasn't brough up much.

Local folk beliefs are another matter entirely. Though, given how hierarchichal the Roman Empire was, they weren't going to change the Empire's religious stance. The Church (and the Patriarch) were too vital for the maintenance of the Emperor's authority.

Indeed.

Bringing up later philosophers probably isn't the best idea for this period: if nothing else, in the later eighth century we're still a good five or six generations away from the widespread "rediscovery" of classical culture by the Byzantine elite, and still further from the deep trauma caused by the events of 1204 and later that prompted a tiny minority to question whether true revolution in the state's practices might be the best solution.

Hm. So at this time there might be a pagan minority in the outskirts of the Roman Empire.

I don't think it's at all likely, apart from in the case of the aforementioned Sclavenes, and of course the Bulgarians who were certainly followers of non-monotheistic faiths at this point. Byzantium's Aegean and Anatolian core had been solidly Christian for the better part of four hundred years.
 
I'd be very surprised if this were the case, about Isis. Paganism certainly existed in mainland Greece in the later eighth century, but this was due to pockets of Sclavenes rather than any actual classical paganism, which was in decline even before the emergence of Christianity.

Yes, it's undoubtedly true that Church councils in the seventh century adopted a rather shrill and hectoring tone towards surviving pagan practises, and it's true that these practises did exist. But did the people practising them feel that they were anything other than solidly Christian? This, I have my doubts about, and I see no reason to imagine that Christianity was anything other than the majority faith across all of the territories of the old Roman Empire by the year 550 at the latest.



Indeed.

Bringing up later philosophers probably isn't the best idea for this period: if nothing else, in the later eighth century we're still a good five or six generations away from the widespread "rediscovery" of classical culture by the Byzantine elite, and still further from the deep trauma caused by the events of 1204 and later that prompted a tiny minority to question whether true revolution in the state's practices might be the best solution.



I don't think it's at all likely, apart from in the case of the aforementioned Sclavenes, and of course the Bulgarians who were certainly followers of non-monotheistic faiths at this point. Byzantium's Aegean and Anatolian core had been solidly Christian for the better part of four hundred years.

Thanks for clearing this up BG. Your presence in a thread is always educational and a flattery
 
Sorry about the delay. Unexpected life events... I'm aiming to update in the next couple of days though!
 
This seems interesting, I'll be following this TL. I wonder how/if the Germanic peoples will be able to standardize/codify their religious beliefs.
 
Sigiburg, Westphalia
A.D. 774


Torches crackled and threw strange shadows inside the Ealdorman’s Hall as it filled with the ruckus and commotion of hundreds of Saxon nobles feasting. Each jostled and shoved for a seat at a table closest to the Ealdorman of Westphalia’s table of honor at the head of the long, dark wooden room. Gathered were over three hundred men, the heads of their houses. They came from all over Saxony, and some from beyond; rough and rowdy Nordalbingians, strong Westphalians, gaunt Engrians, and boisterous Eastphalians amassed under one roof for a simple purpose.

At the farthest end of the hall was the Ealdorman’s table. Placed behind a large bond fire where a boar roasted, the table was elevated so as to both allow for a better view, but also to literally elevate the highest of the Saxons. Ealdormen Widukind of Westphalia presided with the other three at his left. Though each of the Ealdormen were equals in rank and stature, it was clear that Widukind of the House Odon held a charisma about him that put him ahead of the others. To Widukind’s right was a guest of honor, the Danish King Sigfred.

The two men spoke through mouthfuls of mutton and ale, thick beards dripping.

“And why not kill the man who takes your role as leader?” Sigfred said as he chewed. “You and I both know it is your right to lead your people.”

Widukind eyed his fellow Ealdormen before speaking. They were entirely distracted by the feast. “We have very old traditions here, my friend. To kill one of the others would mean their people joining the Franks in retaliation. Whoever wins leads, and there is nothing I can, or should do about it.”

Sigfred eyed Widukind with pale grey eyes. “And who will lead besides you? Hessi of Eastphalia? Look at him! His eyes cannot leave that young man at yonder table. Perhaps if he could fuck Karl the Frank out of your lands, he would be a good leader.”

“Don’t speak so loudly, friend!”

“You are my friend, indeed,” Sigfred said before taking a deep gulp of ale. After swallowing he continued, “And that friendship will, perhaps, save you when Karl burns Saxony to the ground again because the wrong man is leading your people. The Saxons need a strong leader to fight off the Franks who would make you their slave. And what is to happen to my people when the Saxon vanguard fails? Will Karl not then march on Denmark and burn our sacred places like he did yours?”

“It is our tradition.” Widukind responded. “What else are we fighting for but to preserve our traditions?”

“In my land, it is tradition for the strong to lead,” Sigfred shot back. “I thought it was the same here.”

“I am strong,” Widukind said slowly. “But not so strong that without the full force of my people can I defeat the Franks. Not so strong that I can withstand my own people, who even now will surely start this war on their own whether the Edhilingui wish it or not. The Ealdormen need to be united, as unbreakable as Thor’s Hammer, to lead this war.”

Sigfred nodded. “I think the time is now.”

Widukind snarled for a moment, then broke his gaze with the Danish King. Quickly, he drew his long seax from its sheath at his belt. All eyes suddenly fell upon him. When he stood, the room fell silent.

“Edhilingui, noble men and Saxons,” His voice was clear and strong, “we are gathered here today as men in bondage.”

The bond fire glowed brightly, roared and cackled as Widukind, Earl of Saxony sparked his people into rebellion.


Excerpt from Post-Roman Germania by Aethelbeart Brunnen:
Chapter 7: The Saxons, Pages 120-121


“Saxony as a unit was comprised of four sub-units, or tribes within the greater Saxon political system. Though the Latin and later Frankish sources attest seemingly exotic names to these peoples (Westphalians, Engrians, Nordalbingians, Eastphalians), their names were actually quite prosaic to the Saxon ear. Linguistic deconstruction reveals that these groups’ titles can be roughly translated to meaning: Men of the Western Field, Men of the Valley, Men of the Northern Elbe, and Men of the Eastern Field. The four tribes, it seems, were more akin to geographic sub-states rather than distinct ethnicities within greater Saxony.

A single Earl, or Ealdorman, ruled their respective tribe through hereditary right. Each Earl was equal to his counter-parts, except for in times of crisis, in which a single Earl would be chosen by drawing lots to lead unilaterally. Such was the case of Widukind during the fateful wars with Karlus Magnus.

Saxon society was, however, extremely rigid compared to their cultural relatives. A strict caste system was enforced where hereditary right and title was more important than merit. At the top, as already stated, were the Earls. Beneath them was the noble class, known as the Edhilingui, which literally means “belonging to a noble family.” This nobility numbered approximated a hundred families per tribe. These families could be quite large, and made for the core military troops in battle. Anthropological and archaeological evidence supports the idea that this elite class was instituted early on in Saxon existence probably by an invading military class, perhaps as early as the Germanic pre-Roman Iron Age between the 4th century B.C. and the 1st century A.D. (to use the Christian calendar), when Germanic tribes seem to have first spread out from Scandinavia after the Nordic Bronze Age. These tribes certainly inhabited their traditional territory by the early 1st century A.D. when a tribe the Romans called the Angrivarii allied themselves with the Cherusci under Arminius. These peoples have now been identified with the Engrians, the central Saxon tribe.

The two middle-classes of Saxon society constitute a degree of ambiguity. The Frilinig, the higher of the two, were freemen who were born free but were not of the noble class. Their counterparts, the Lazzi, were freedmen who were once slaves. These classes are believed to be mostly descended from the original inhabitants of Saxony from before the Saxon migration southward centuries earlier. Though culturally, they were fully Saxon (indeed, they would prove the most fervent and powerful force behind Saxon independency and cultural conservatism), their ancestors were likely either Celtic, possibly Belgic, or some non-Celtic culture heavily influenced by Halstatt Material Culture. They were the most numerous classes, and, unlike in Christian Europe, as freemen they held certain rights such as the right to collect wergild and the right to assemble at the halls of their Gau, the local Edhilingui that ruled the lands in which they lived.

At the very bottom was the slave class. These peoples were often captured during raids. They could be set free, and though there were laws to protect their rights, ultimately their lives were one of servitude. These classes were very rigid, and marrying outside of your caste was highly forbidden.”
 
Sigfred is a strong speaker, even in what I assume to be Saxon and not his native Norse.

I'm also interested in seeing how the Saxon caste system gets either shaken up or spread when the Franks fall before their onslaught.
 
Sigfred is a strong speaker, even in what I assume to be Saxon and not his native Norse.

I'm also interested in seeing how the Saxon caste system gets either shaken up or spread when the Franks fall before their onslaught.

It always behooves a king to be fluent in multiple languages.

Also, I'm interested as well :p. While a more liberating system than feudalism and its precursors, it still is rather rigid and I imagine will have to adapt.

Whoops...sounds to me that the Pagans are having their day.

More than just their day :)
 
so the premise of this TL is a europe full of pagans?

i'd rather be a pagan :p count me subbed. i know your gonna focus on europe mainly but it would be nice for zoroastrianism to be still somewhat prominent. also, we are gonna see a metric crapton of religious wars, with pagans, muslims, and christianity brawling each other.
 
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