Lands of Red and Gold, Act II

[Quinkana]

That's too far ahead of the "present" of the timeline to go into, but I will note that the question assumes that they're colonised by anyone, which isn't necessarily the case.

yeah, but to be fair, Cascadia and Alaska don't have native farmers, so it's more likely that they get colonized by someone else. Also, the Kiyungu after colonizing California can expand northwards easily, and colonize the rest of Cascadia, so I think they would try at least.

ps: this question strays into 'spoiler' territory anyway, so?

 

[Arkenfolm]

yeah, but to be fair, Cascadia and Alaska don't have native farmers, so it's more likely that they get colonized by someone else. Also, the Kiyungu after colonizing California can expand northwards easily, and colonize the rest of Cascadia, so I think they would try at least.

ps: this question strays into 'spoiler' territory anyway, so?

They didn't have native farmers there but did have large populations of sedentary villages and also did take to simple farming of potatoes around 1800 or so thanks to trade with Europeans. With the lower starting population of the Kiyungu, they'd probably lose out to Europeans settling anything north of the southern coastal bays in Oregon (where access to the interior is mostly blocked by thick forest and rather high, rain-soaked mountains).

I think the Kiyungu would insert themselves into the maritime fur trade and the natives would play them off European traders. You could have a very Kiyungu-ized PNW where the elite would be mixed-race Kiyungu-Native "Metis" types since the chiefs and nobles would marry their relatives off to Kiyungu traders. That would accompany a much greater introduction of agriculture and critical knowledge like treatment of disease (including malaria, the most deadly disease on the Lower Columbia and Willamette in the 1830s that practically destroyed the Kalapuyans and Chinookans) and a subsequent population boom that would favor the mixed-race individuals. These mixed-race elites and the natives in general could confederate out of a desire to keep free of Californian Kiyungu and European influence, but there's a lot of variables to how successful it would be.

 

[Quinkana]

They didn't have native farmers there but did have large populations of sedentary villages and also did take to simple farming of potatoes around 1800 or so thanks to trade with Europeans. With the lower starting population of the Kiyungu, they'd probably lose out to Europeans settling anything north of the southern coastal bays in Oregon (where access to the interior is mostly blocked by thick forest and rather high, rain-soaked mountains).

I think the Kiyungu would insert themselves into the maritime fur trade and the natives would play them off European traders. You could have a very Kiyungu-ized PNW where the elite would be mixed-race Kiyungu-Native "Metis" types since the chiefs and nobles would marry their relatives off to Kiyungu traders. That would accompany a much greater introduction of agriculture and critical knowledge like treatment of disease (including malaria, the most deadly disease on the Lower Columbia and Willamette in the 1830s that practically destroyed the Kalapuyans and Chinookans) and a subsequent population boom that would favor the mixed-race individuals. These mixed-race elites and the natives in general could confederate out of a desire to keep free of Californian Kiyungu and European influence, but there's a lot of variables to how successful it would be.

I think its probable that Metis type peoples with Nangu ships, guns and horses would spread from northern California (fringes of current Kiyungu settlements) and spread northwards to Alaska, which would be like the Scots-Irish that spread through the US otl in the 17th century. These people would then be swamped by the Kiyungu, which would assimilate some Native American culture from the Metis peoples while the Metis peoples
peoples would see themselves as kiyungu more and more.

ps: I'd like to see one place where a big unified state emerges. Would enjoy seeing a west coast state seizing control of Panama and invading Mexico for dramatic irony.

 

[Jared]

yeah, but to be fair, Cascadia and Alaska don't have native farmers, so it's more likely that they get colonized by someone else. Also, the Kiyungu after colonizing California can expand northwards easily, and colonize the rest of Cascadia, so I think they would try at least.

Much of this is spoilerific, but I will point out that at the time that the Kogung colonised California, the Nuttana method of colonisation (which the Kogung may well inherit) is very much about trade relationships and mediation rather than formal colonial control*. So it would involve a series of trading posts and related trade concessions sought, rather than trying to formally rule (or even declare protectorates) over an area. Efforts to spread religion would go hand in hand in that, but a Plirite mission (at least of the Nuttana schools) is very much that - teaching religion, not used as a beachhead for formal control. Religion would also spread by sheer trade presence, since Plirites prefer to trade with fellow Plirites where they have a chance (more trust that contracts will be honoured, among other reasons).

*Not saying that this won't change later, but that wouldn't spread to the Kogung in the same way.

 

[Quinkana]

Much of this is spoilerific, but I will point out that at the time that the Kogung colonised California, the Nuttana method of colonisation (which the Kogung may well inherit) is very much about trade relationships and mediation rather than formal colonial control*. So it would involve a series of trading posts and related trade concessions sought, rather than trying to formally rule (or even declare protectorates) over an area. Efforts to spread religion would go hand in hand in that, but a Plirite mission (at least of the Nuttana schools) is very much that - teaching religion, not used as a beachhead for formal control. Religion would also spread by sheer trade presence, since Plirites prefer to trade with fellow Plirites where they have a chance (more trust that contracts will be honoured, among other reasons).

*Not saying that this won't change later, but that wouldn't spread to the Kogung in the same way.

I hope the wars against the Mexicans/Spanish will harden the Kogung to be more war-like as they need to pull on more resources to repel the Spainiards, which then evolves into the Kogung having a more direct approach in acquiring land.

PS: if its too spoilery, you don't need to talk about it.

 

[Kaiphranos]

Congratulations to @Jared - I see the published version of Book I, Walking Through Dreams, was nominated for the 2019 Sidewise Award!

 

[Jared]

Beat met to the announcement!

Walking Through Dreams is indeed up for the 2019 Sidewise Award. Feels rather pleasing to see the book's cover alongside the other nominees on the official website.

Winners will be announced during Discon III on 15-19 December this year. (The Tor website didn't mention that, which was odd because it was part of the announcement).

Also gives me a bit of a buzz to know that two of the stories in the Alternate Australias anthology I edited are up for the 2020 Short Form Sidewise Award: 1827: Napoleon in Australia by Andrew J Harvey and Moonshot by Matthew Kresal. Full credit to those authors, and it was pleasing to have a hand in bringing those stories to publication.

In other relevant news for this thread, Book 2 of Lands of Red and Gold, titled The Proxy Dance, will be released before the end of the year. Substantial delays due to COVID, but it's just about there. As well as the extensive revisions and updates to the existing timeline, it contains a substantial amount of new material. Book 3 is in the final stages of self-editing (always takes me a while). Then I'll start work on Book 4, much (though not all) of which will appear in the timeline thread here.

 

[Quinkana]

Beat met to the announcement!

Walking Through Dreams is indeed up for the 2019 Sidewise Award. Feels rather pleasing to see the book's cover alongside the other nominees on the official website.

Winners will be announced during Discon III on 15-19 December this year. (The Tor website didn't mention that, which was odd because it was part of the announcement).

Also gives me a bit of a buzz to know that two of the stories in the Alternate Australias anthology I edited are up for the 2020 Short Form Sidewise Award: 1827: Napoleon in Australia by Andrew J Harvey and Moonshot by Matthew Kresal. Full credit to those authors, and it was pleasing to have a hand in bringing those stories to publication.

In other relevant news for this thread, Book 2 of Lands of Red and Gold, titled The Proxy Dance, will be released before the end of the year. Substantial delays due to COVID, but it's just about there. As well as the extensive revisions and updates to the existing timeline, it contains a substantial amount of new material. Book 3 is in the final stages of self-editing (always takes me a while). Then I'll start work on Book 4, much (though not all) of which will appear in the timeline thread here.

Congrats! It's nice seeing LORAG being a finalist of such an award. It's been a long way from here to now this, right?

I've been watching MasterChef Australia, and one of the things I wanna ask is what kinds of citrus would the Aururians have? I think you mentioned desert lime, but would other citrus fruits like finger lime and round lime be discovered and hybridised with desert lime and other kinds of old world citrus? If so, the diversity of citrus across the world would be much more diverse than otl and we would be eating and using more than just lemon, oranges and limes as the 'go to' citruses when people are going to eat/cook citrus fruits.

 

[minna no furusato]

Congrats! It's nice seeing LORAG being a finalist of such an award. It's been a long way from here to now this, right?

I've been watching MasterChef Australia, and one of the things I wanna ask is what kinds of citrus would the Aururians have? I think you mentioned desert lime, but would other citrus fruits like finger lime and round lime be discovered and hybridised with desert lime and other kinds of old world citrus? If so, the diversity of citrus across the world would be much more diverse than otl and we would be eating and using more than just lemon, oranges and limes as the 'go to' citruses when people are going to eat/cook citrus fruits.

They probably use jeeree as a citrus-like flavoring for foods and beverages, sodas etc.

Iced jeeree drinks I can see becoming very popular.

 

[Jared]

Congrats! It's nice seeing LORAG being a finalist of such an award. It's been a long way from here to now this, right?

Thanks! It's very pleasing to be nominated.

I've been watching MasterChef Australia, and one of the things I wanna ask is what kinds of citrus would the Aururians have? I think you mentioned desert lime, but would other citrus fruits like finger lime and round lime be discovered and hybridised with desert lime and other kinds of old world citrus? If so, the diversity of citrus across the world would be much more diverse than otl and we would be eating and using more than just lemon, oranges and limes as the 'go to' citruses when people are going to eat/cook citrus fruits.

The short version is that there will be two main species cultivated, desert lime and then finger lime. These are the two which are most widespread in the "farming" areas of Aururia. The other species are located further north and wouldn't really be touched until the Nuttana expand into those regions - and maybe not even then.

Pretty much all Citrus species hybridise readily., so Aururian species will be added to that mix. This has already happened to a degree in OTL - there are cultivars which are crosses between Australian citrus and various others - but will no doubt be much more widespread here.

 

[minna no furusato]

I was reading some old posts and there was fascinating discussion about the Nuttana colonising Northern Aururia using foreign crops and livestock such as from India (which does make sense with climate similarities).

I wonder if to some extent native hunter-gatherers of the region will also end up taking up these new things, although they are likely to just be absorbed or pushed away by the Nuttana.

 

[Quinkana]

I was reading some old posts and there was fascinating discussion about the Nuttana colonising Northern Aururia using foreign crops and livestock such as from India (which does make sense with climate similarities).

I wonder if to some extent native hunter-gatherers of the region will also end up taking up these new things, although they are likely to just be absorbed or pushed away by the Nuttana.

I think they're most likely going to be absorbed, but one or two groups would survive as their own thing. Then being Christian would be interesting.

 

[Jared]

I haven't definitively settled (no pun intended) on the future course of northern Aururia. Europeans consider it a Portuguese preserve, since there's not much to attract them there and the Portuguese mostly expanded for religious reasons. The Nuttana, of course, don't recognise European views, but they also have their own reasons for where they do and don't venture, and mostly they're interested in trading into areas with high-value goods. They do try to spread their religion to a degree as well, but the main focus of such efforts is also linked to regions where they're trading.

It's likely to be Book 5 territory before I cover this region in detail.

 

[Dominic]

It's likely to be Book 5 territory before I cover this region in detail.

Book 5? How many are planned?

I still think an 'Aururian cookbook' would be a bestseller, there's a huge demand for food including native ingredients. I'm currently sitting on a bulk supply of Warrigal Greens, it has become the dominant lifeform in a large part of my parents' garden, but only have one decent recipe involving it. Got a lot of Murnong of the 'edible but not tasty' variety (scapigeri) but definitely need to move into walteri territory. Lots of Tasmanian pepper berry plants doing well after the wet winter but no berries yet. In terms of fruit doing alright, heaps of unripe appleberries but the native raspberries and midgen berries remain limited. Only got one chocolate lilly, no idea how to cook it though.

But anyway a crosstime cookbook would be great, tie in some LoRaG vignettes for literary flavour I'll buy a hardback immediately.

 

[Jared]

Book 5? How many are planned?

Probably 6 books in the "main sequence", with quite a few possible spin-offs. The spin-offs mostly depend on how much attention I give this compared to other writing priorities.

I still think an 'Aururian cookbook' would be a bestseller, there's a huge demand for food including native ingredients. I'm currently sitting on a bulk supply of Warrigal Greens, it has become the dominant lifeform in a large part of my parents' garden, but only have one decent recipe involving it. Got a lot of Murnong of the 'edible but not tasty' variety (scapigeri) but definitely need to move into walteri territory. Lots of Tasmanian pepper berry plants doing well after the wet winter but no berries yet. In terms of fruit doing alright, heaps of unripe appleberries but the native raspberries and midgen berries remain limited. Only got one chocolate lilly, no idea how to cook it though.

But anyway a crosstime cookbook would be great, tie in some LoRaG vignettes for literary flavour I'll buy a hardback immediately.

Writing enough real-world recipes would probably be a challenge, unfortunately. I experiment a little but I'm no chef. I'm also vegetarian, so wouldn't have that much to contribute in terms of omnivorous recipes.

The most likely spin-off I can think of is going to be one or more of the novella ideas I have in mind. Probably the first of those will be a murder mystery set in Tjibarr-of-the-Lakes just after the first Europeans are brought there. With a chance to see Wemba again in a supporting role.

 

[Rooki]

The most likely spin-off I can think of is going to be one or more of the novella ideas I have in mind. Probably the first of those will be a murder mystery set in Tjibarr-of-the-Lakes just after the first Europeans are brought there. With a chance to see Wemba again in a supporting role.

This sounds rad as hek, fingers crossed things work out so you can write it!

First off, entries for the contest have closed. I'll announce the winner after I've discussed it with them via PM (no PMs have gone out yet.)

Did the winner for the Guess the Character contest get announced? Are we allowed to speculate on what's going on with Clements in this thread now? I've got some ideas but missed the competition sadly.

 

[Jared]

This sounds rad as hek, fingers crossed things work out so you can write it!

Will see how things go. Editing Book 3 seems to take longer and longer, mostly due to some RL matters taking most of my attention. Hopefully writing this year will be more productive, but then I thought that last year.

I have toyed with writing the novellas in between the "main book", but after consideration have decided to leave them until the end, as otherwise they'll be too much of a distraction.

Did the winner for the Guess the Character contest get announced? Are we allowed to speculate on what's going on with Clements in this thread now? I've got some ideas but missed the competition sadly.

There were joint winners, which on reflection I've decided to leave unnamed for now so that people can try to spot the cameos when Book 3 comes out. I will name them eventually if people have trouble spotting them.

So in other words, feel free to speculate away in thread.

 

[minna no furusato]

I haven't definitively settled (no pun intended) on the future course of northern Aururia. Europeans consider it a Portuguese preserve, since there's not much to attract them there and the Portuguese mostly expanded for religious reasons. The Nuttana, of course, don't recognise European views, but they also have their own reasons for where they do and don't venture, and mostly they're interested in trading into areas with high-value goods. They do try to spread their religion to a degree as well, but the main focus of such efforts is also linked to regions where they're trading.

It's likely to be Book 5 territory before I cover this region in detail.

Fascinating, this TL definitely has enough for 10 books or more.

I was thinking of interior of Aururia too, I agre with some thread discussion that camel herding can become the main lifestyle there but I don't think the native hunter gatherer will develop camel pastoralism.

Camel pastoralism I believe will be developed by the horse and cattle herding Tjarrlinghi, especially since there is an African ethnic group that is divided into cattle and camel herding sub-groups.

This maps is OTL distribution of wild camel in Australia, could perhaps be the homeland of the camel herders?

Maybe they originate as breakaways of the Tjarrlinghi who differ religiously like in history of Arab caliphates and move to another land with another way of life?

 

[minna no furusato]

In a related real world news it would appear that the red yam has actually been discovered IOTL a few millenia late.

 

[fraa Jad]

IIRC about three years ago.