Italy, a Destiny Fulfilled

So I know I said the last question was the last but this isn't really a question (Kind of:p). I haven't forgot about the posts back in the initial posts of this TL that now may seem very small and insignificant compared to the vast paragraphs above this post. Anyways, one of the initial ideas on this TL was the construction of a world class learning facility (university) in Italy to compete with the great minds of Prussia. I concur with this, and top Italian scientists/engineers can really help Italian innovation, along with keeping many great Italians such as Enrico Fermi, to name one ;)
 
So I know I said the last question was the last but this isn't really a question (Kind of:p). I haven't forgot about the posts back in the initial posts of this TL that now may seem very small and insignificant compared to the vast paragraphs above this post. Anyways, one of the initial ideas on this TL was the construction of a world class learning facility (university) in Italy to compete with the great minds of Prussia. I concur with this, and top Italian scientists/engineers can really help Italian innovation, along with keeping many great Italians such as Enrico Fermi, to name one ;)

Already thinking to nukes!:eek: lets get into the 20th century first:p I would say name it the Italian Academy of Math and Science? Basic but to the point. Maybe include something about arts in there?
 
Already thinking to nukes!:eek: lets get into the 20th century first:p I would say name it the Italian Academy of Math and Science? Basic but to the point. Maybe include something about arts in there?

Hahaha, just a thought!:p Yea that sounds about right. I'm sure it will be in Rome. I'm thinking about a look-alike library of Alexandria :D
 
The Savoy and southwest France in the time of Part VIII.


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Parte Otto​



1868

January 6th, during the celebrations of the end of Christmas, Pope Pius IX calls for a great council of the catholic church. The council will be held in Avignon, where the pope now resides after fleeing Rome, and will start on 1 March 1868.

February, general unrest in Southern Italy as numerous priests and bishops refuse to cooperate with Italian authorities and oppose passive resistance. The week of the 7th to 15th see a string of bombings in Calabria and Campania. The most conspicuous one results in the derailment of a train from Naples to Salerno, with significant numbers of victims among the civilians. Southern move businesses in the area are rattled by the effects and they fear for their business interests. The month ends with Prime Minister Francesco di Castagna reinstating martial law in Calabria and Campania. He reports to Parliament that the unrest in the south has been engineered by foreign agents of a hostile power, backed by the minions of the exiled pope. Many fear that this may be the end to the recent period of unparalleled prosperity in the south and the resurgence of the mafia. Italian army contingents sweep the Calabrian mountains, searching for insurgents. French newspapers report many false atrocities.



March 1st, the council of the church is inaugurated with a solemn Te Deum in the cathedral of Avignon. The pope thunders against godless rulers who have profanated the city of Rome, sanctified for more than 18 centuries by the blood of countless martyrs.

March 2nd, the Pope blesses the flags of French regiments marching toward the Italian border, and calls them "true sons of the church, crusaders ready to avenge the injury to the church and to God Himself. News of this are reported on all European newspapers: most of the comments are negative. The Times in London comments: "Is the pope calling for a new Albigensian crusade? It is strange to witness such events in a century dedicated to the progress of science and humanity"

March 15th, the doctrine of papal infallibility is promulgated. While the proceeds of the council are secret, there are rumors of significant opposition to this doctrine.

As March draws to a close in Avignon, a significant number of delegates have been leaving the council. None of them has been willing to make statements to the press, just mentioning "the urgent calls of pastoral care"

A bomb is thrown in Crotone against the carriage of the military governor of Calabria, killing him and a number of bystanders. The terrorists are apprehended while trying to flee: it is discovered that all of them are Jesuits in disguise.

The Pope calls on all Catholics to participate in processions and invoke the blessing of the Holy Ghost on the council of the church. The processions shall be hold on 7 April, Palm Sunday.

April 2nd, the Italian government asks for an oath of fealty from all bishops. Recalcitrant bishops will be placed under house arrests.

April 7th, thousands of pilgrims gather to ascend the Holy Mountain of St. Patrick, answering the appeal of the pope. Notwithstanding the strong presence of Irish Constabulary and British troops, the pilgrimage soon degenerates into a political rally against British oppression and Protestant Ascendancy. A riot ensues, leaving 30 deads among the pilgrims. They are quickly termed as the "Martyrs of Palm Sunday". The di Castagna Palm Sunday dinner in Capo Vaticano, Calabria is cut short with Francesco leaving for his room early into the meal. Wife Vittoria di Castagna blames high stress levels and her husband feeling uneasy about the "Catholic situation" (as di Castagna is a devout Catholic).

Warsaw: the catholic processions of Palm Sunday erupts into anti-Prussian demonstrations. Prussian cavalry charges the demonstrants, leaving many dead and wounded.

Italy: processions are organised in the major cities of northern and central Italy to answer the papal appeal (no procession has been authorised in the southern regions under martial law). Counter-manifestations are organised by liberals and nationalists, to condemn "the traitorous Pius, whose hands dripping with the blood of the patriots have blessed the flags of the enemies of Italy". Many incidents are reported, with a few dead and wounded.

Palm Sunday processions are organised in the Austrian empire as well. Incidents are reported only in Prague and Kracow (in the latter city, the procession becomes quickly a Polish independence rally).

April 12th, reinforcements of the Reggia Marina and the Italian army arrive around Nice. The city is put under siege and bombardment of fortifications and the civil population begins.

April 10th, the pope holds a solemn mass in Avignon, for the souls of the dead in the Palm Sunday riots. They are proclaimed "martyrs of the faith".

with the Regia Marina being a no show at Nice, Garibaldi decides to attack with his army corp. As expected, Nice has become a fortress with a large French force in it. Garibaldi's attack is repelled after bloody street fighting at the perifery of Nice, and he is wounded.

The Swiss ambassador in Florence is handed over a diplomatic note, informing the Swiss Confederation that the Government of Italy has denounced the 1861 agreement for the neutraization of Savoy, and intends to attack French Savoy on 27th April. A separate diplomatic note offers Switzerland a joint Italo-German guarantee of Swiss neutrality against any attack.

April 22nd, the Prussian victory at Mars la tour is yet another win for the Prussians, who at this time are advancing rapidly into France. Napoleon is torn between the Prussian assaulted north and the Italian assaulted south. Napoleon decides that Prussia continues to be a greater threat to the French and maintains his focus on Prussia.

April 23rd, Nice, after suffering fires, and long nights of open artillery fire, has had enough. The leader of the French garrison in France goes of to beg the Italians for a ceasefire. Nice falls to the Italians.

April 25th, the tactical victory of France at Gravelotte the previous day is over shadowed by the Prussian victory at Metz today.

April 27th, the second branch of the Italian army crosses the border into the region of Savoy ceded to France in 1861.

May 1st, the Italian army and Navy shells Antibes with 3,000 shells. The city falls by the end of the day.

May 2nd, Modane falls to the Italians

May 3rd, the Prussians win at Sedan. Napoleon III orders the white flag to be run up and surrenders himself and the entire Army of Châlons to Moltke and the Prussian King. The capture of the French emperor leaves the Prussians without an opposing government willing to make a quick peace.

May 4th, Federal Chancellor Otto von Bismarck reports to the Bundesrat of the North German Confederation. After describing the great victory at Sedan which culminated in the surrender of the French emperor and his army, and praising the heroism and the spirit of sacrifice of the German armies, he moves to the discuss the riots of Palm Sunday and the role of the pope and catholic powers in instigating unrest:

"The question we currently deal with, in my opinion, is falsely described, and the perspective by which we look at it, is a wrong one, if one regards it as a confessional one. It is mainly a political one; it is not about the struggle, as our Catholic fellow citizens are told, of a Protestant dynasty against the Catholic church, it is not a struggle between believers and unbelievers, it is the age-old struggle between kingship and priesthood, a power struggle as old as mankind, older than the appearance on earth of our saviour, the power struggle Agamemnon fought with his seers in Aulis, the power struggle which shaped the German history in the Middle Ages, leading to the desintegration of the German Empire, in the form of the conflict between emperors and popes, and which resulted in the execution of the last descendant of the illustrious Swabian dynasty by the axe of a French conqueror, a French conqueror alied with the pope.

Once again a French monarch has conspired with the pope to undermine the natural aspirations of the German people, but this time they shall not prevail: our armies are triumphant in Northern france and our Italian ally is overcoming the French armies in Provence. The last French emperor has surrendered his word to general von Moltke and the pope shall soon learn that he cannot impose his delusions over the will of a free people.

This power struggle is subject to the same conditions as any other struggle; it is a misinterpretation of the question with the object to impress people without judgment, if it is described as a matter of oppression of the church. It is a matter of defense of the state, of a delimitation, insofar priesthood and insofar royal rule shall reach, this delimitation has to be found in a way that the state can continue to exist. Because in this world the state claims both authority and priority." [1]

In Italy, Prime Minister Di Castagna reports to the Italian Parliament in joint session. The war situation is good, Italian armies are deeply ito French territory, and emperon Napoleon III has been defeated at Sedan and has surrendered. Victory will still require sacrifices and dedication, but Italy will achieve its triumph. In a more sombre tone, Di Castagna reviews the internal situation: there is still unrest in the south, even if the largest concentrations of insurgents have been broken and the enemy's spy rings have been identified and neutralised. The riots of Palm Sunday have proven that the Italian people is standing besides their kingand goernment, and will not fall for the lies of a deluded pope. The struggle is not yet over, though, he warns: "The Italian South more than one time became of forge of ideas and progress, but the church has always conspired with foreign monarchs to keep our people under the joke of obscurantism and ignorance, fighting against science, knowledge and progress. Once again the people of southern Italy have risen, and broken their chains: if we fail them, history will condemn us to a hell deepest than the one threathened by the pope.
Pius IX's election gave hope to the patriots fighting for the freedom of Italy, and he blessed the struggles of the people in 1848. Soon after, though, he reneged his vows, and rather than a shephers he choose to be an executioner, dipping his hands in the blood of the patriots. 6 months ago the people of Rome insurged again, and this time Italy was not deaf to their appeal. Now the pope that fled Rome and the wrath of a free people like a thief in the night dares to treathen us, hiding behind the bayonets of his French master. Let us answer him without hate in the immortal words of the new bard of the resurgent and triumphant Italy:

Our way is strewn with graves, but like an altar
Each grave is decked with flowers.
The memory of the dead burns: shall we falter
In this great work of ours?
Nay, say us all join hands, the sage, the bard,
Warrior and artisan:
Easy is now that which was once so hard:
We mined the Vatican. [2]

Let the old man in Avignon hear these words, and let us hope that his heart is not too hardened by hate and arrogance. Let the pope atone for his mistakes, so that he may take again his place in Rome. This is the wish of the people of Italy and his king, this was the greatest desire of my immortal predecessor, Count Camillo Benso of Cavour: a Free Church in a Free State.

But at the same time let him also heed the warning of a free and proud Italy.
Once again I will use the words of our bard, who from afar saw the roads untaken and sang of them to us:

But other the phantoms
When finer the age,
At times he awakens
From Livy's full page,

When tribunes and consuls
And vast crowds that thrill
With ardour and passion
That sleepless cell fill,

He to the Capitol,
Thy land to set free
Of Italic pride dreaming,
O monk, urges thee.

And you, Huss and Wycliffe,
No fury of flames
Could stifle your voices'
Prophetic acclaims.

Send forth on the breezes
Your watch-cry sublime
"A new age is dawning,
Fulfilled is the time!" [3]

May 5th, the French Second Empire collapses in a bloodless revolution. A new provisional government is in place.

The Times in London reports with great emphasis about the speeches given in Berlin and Florence, remarking on the cohesion of the Italo-Prussian alliance and at the same time praising the "measured answer of two great modern states to the crusade-preaching pope exiled in Avignon". Reports from France underline the parlous state of French armies and the weakness of the coalition government formed after the surrender of Napoleon III. A correspondent from Vienna reports that the mobilization of the Austrian army, which was started at the end of April, is slowing down. Other reports from Ireland give accounts of civil disobedience and unrest in the eastern part of the island.

May 10th, the Pope issues a condemnation of the prelates that have left the council, even if no specific punitive measures are taken against them

May 22nd, lower Savoy is completely under Italian hands. Many Italian speakers are sympathetic to the Italian cause and resistance in the region is low.

May 25th, the French decide to go on a naval offensive against the Italians: they are acutely aware that the coal stocks are depleted and it's very difficult to receive supplies from Northern France. A squadron of the Marine Imperial leaves Toulon to bombard Genoa. They are met by the Regia Marina, steaming from La Spezia, and a chaotic battle ensues. Very good performance of L'Affondatore, the Italian ram-ship which sinks two French first class frigates, Savoie and Surveillante. The Re d'Italia is damaged, and has to be towed to Genoa for repairs. The Italian victory is not devastating in tactical terms, and the Regia Marina does not pursue the retreating French ships. In terms of morale,the outcome of the battle is superb. From now on the French navy will not again take the initiative in the war.

reinforced by a second army corps, Garibaldi renews the push toward Toulon. After three days of bitter fighting, the French troops are under siege in Toulon.

May 25th-, the regional armies raised by the new French government of National Defence begin to fight hard to contest the Prussian threathened encircleent of Paris. Consisting mostly of raw recruits and lacking officers, their elan cannot keep the Prussians from advancing.

May 27th, Megeve falls to the Italians after a minor skirmish with the French.

June 10th, Toulon surrenders. Rther than investing Marseille, the Italian army wheel north, direction Grenoble.

June 20th, Italian and French forces meet at Chambery. The Italians, coming under heavy French artillery fire, withdraw from the village and await an assault. The French assault proves unsuccessful and they retreat back to the village. After an hours pause, the opposing forces meet again with the Italians waiting until the last possible chance to fire due to low ammunition counts. The Italians are successful and the French retreat back again. The French try one last push under the cover of night but the Italians, on their last leg, manage to repulse the attack. The French force, feeling defeated and having suffered massive casualties in three failed assaults, abandon their effort to drive away the Italians and surrender. Chambery falls to Italy

June 25th-, the German armies slowly destroy the Army of the Loire and the Army of the North.

July 2nd, the Italians invest Grenoble from north and south.

July 3rd, Grenoble capitulates. An Italian army moves toward Lyon.

A squadron of Italian navy shells Oran in eastern Algeria, after having escorted troopships to a landing near the city. Oran is invested from land the day after. Many European leaders are astounded of the performance Italy is putting on against France, especially with this amphibious landing.

July 6th, a large Italian reinforcement brigade moves into place around Toulon, joining with the army. A final push for the city begins with heavy Italian bombardment. The army slowly makes their way into the city and by the end of the day, Toulon is in Italian hands. The Toulon campaign has been the bloodiest part of the war for Italy, dealing a great blow to Italian logistics.

July 10th, Oran surrenders to an Italian expedition force

July 15th, the last French army in the field is forced into the mountains by gen. von Maunteuffel. Gen. Bourbaki enter Swiss territory and is dsarmed and interned.

July 17th, the government of National Defence sus for peace. An armistice is agreed, starting at dawn on July 18th. Gambetta refuses to accept the armistice, and launches an attack on German troops near Orleans: he's defeated, captured and court-martialled for violation of war laws. Gambetta will be shot by a firing squad on July 25th, and will become a myth of French revanchisme.

July 21st, Bismarck orchestrates the "spontaneous" proclamation of the new Reich at Versailles. German troops march under the Arc de Triomphe on July 22nd, before leaving Paris. The German troops are joined for the victory parade by two regiments of bersaglieri and two regiments of cavalry.

July 25th, Peace negotiations start in Muhlose, Alsace.

August, in Florence, the Italian Parliament has Francesco di Castagna dead center and is asking him about further funding. The Italianization of many foreign captured lands as a by-product of the war with Austria has run up a tab as well as that war not fully being paid for yet. Parliament is aware of Italy’s position and offers nothing much else to the Prime Minister other than the message: Money for the war is running out.


[Notes]


[1] IOTL Bismarck made this speech (except for the sentence in Italics, which is LordKalvan's) in the Prussian House of Lords on 10 March 1873, on the subject of Kulturkampf.

[2] Verses taken from Ode to Rome, written by Carducci in OTL 1868. IOTL, these verses were quite bitter since they came after the defeat of Garibaldi at Mentana, and what Carducci perceived as a betrayal of the Italian government. ITTL they sound much more like a somber praise of a job well done.

[3] Verses taken from Hymn to Satan, written by Carducci in 1863. IOTL the Hymn was considered quite scandalous, and no plitician would have dared to quote it. Again TTL is a horse a very different color, and the Hymn to Satan becomes mainstream

For those interested in Carducci's poems in a more than decent English translation:
Carducci By Geoffrey Langdale Bickersteth
A Selection from the Poems of Giosue Carducci By Giosu Carducci

Search via Google Books

- Some may say this is ASB. Really? I would love to hear your reasoning but If Prussia in OTL kicked French ass all over the place then Italy (ITTL carbon copy, virtually), can do the same, to my opinion.

- If there is ANYthing I should add (to your opinion, or even take out), please say so. I mostly mean about the Pope and externally or things like that as I'm quite confident of the way the war is progressing.
 
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Parte Otto​

April 11th, the exiled Pope Pius IX calls for the twentieth ecumenical council in Avignon, France immediately. The topics of rationalism, liberalism, materialism; inspiration of Scripture; Papal infallibility are to be discussed. The populace in Austria, France, Spain, and Hungary is tumultuous over the Pope’s exile.

April 12th, reinforcements of the Reggia Marina and the Italian army arrive around Nice. The city is put under siege and bombardment of fortifications and the civil population begins.

April 22nd, the Prussian victory at Mars la tour is yet another win for the Prussians, who at this time are advancing rapidly into France. Napoleon is torn between the Prussian assaulted north and the Italian assaulted south. Napoleon decides that Prussia continues to be a greater threat to the French and maintains his focus on Prussia.

April 23rd, Nice, after suffering fires, and long nights of open artillery fire, has had enough. The leader of the French garrison in France goes of to beg the Italians for a ceasefire. Nice falls to the Italians.

April 25th, the tactical victory of France at Gravelotte the previous day is over shadowed by the Prussian victory at Metz today.

April 27th, a second branch of the Italian army crosses the border into the region of Savoy ceded to France in 1861.

May 1st, the Italian army and Navy shells Antibes with 3,000 shells. The city falls by the end of the day.

May 2nd, Modane falls to the Italians

May 3rd, the Prussians win at Sedan. Napoleon III orders the white flag to be run up and surrenders himself and the entire Army of Châlons to Moltke and the Prussian King. The capture of the French emperor leaves the Prussians without an opposing government willing to make a quick peace.

May 5th, the French Second Empire collapses in a bloodless revolution. A new provisional government is in place.

May 10th, an overzealous Italian army marches on Toulon. After many victories the Italians have become disorderly in their lines and sloppy. Toulon is ready for them. The Italians are surprised by an outstandingly strong French resistance. The French shell the Italians with percussion fused shells causing panic in the unsuspecting Italian ranks then resulting in the Italian garrison’s retreat in disorder during a direct bayonet charge by French infantry.

May 22nd, lower Savoy is completely under Italian hands. Many Italian speakers are sympathetic to the Italian cause and resistance in the region is low.

May 25th, the French decide to go on a naval offensive against the Italians. A small fleet of Reggia Marina patrol ships is destroyed.

May 27th, Megeve falls to the Italians after a minor skirmish with the French.

June 20th, Prussian and French fighting continues with a Prussian win at Bellevue.

June 30th, the Italians again try their luck at Toulon. The battle that ensues sees both the Italian and French forces take massive losses. The Italian siege tactic is not working as only half of it can work. The Italian army is properly laying siege however that is ineffective as Toulon is being supplied by sea, due to the French navies’ offensive making it impossible for the Reggia Marina to get into place.

July 6th, a large Italian reinforcement brigade moves into place around Toulon, joining with the army. A final push for the city begins with heavy Italian bombardment. The army slowly makes their way into the city and by the end of the day, Toulon is in Italian hands. The Toulon campaign has been the bloodiest part of the war for Italy, dealing a great blow to Italian logistics.

July 20th, Italian and French forces meet at Chambery. The Italians, coming under heavy French artillery fire, withdraw from the village and await an assault. The French assault proves unsuccessful and they retreat back to the village. After an hours pause, the opposing forces meet again with the Italians waiting until the last possible chance to fire due to low ammunition counts. The Italians are successful and the French retreat back again. The French try one last push under the cover of night but the Italians, on their last leg, manage to repulse the attack. The French force, feeling defeated and having suffered massive casualties in three failed assaults, abandon their effort to drive away the Italians and surrender. Chambery falls to Italy

August, in Florence, the Italian Parliament has Francesco di Castagna dead center and is asking him about further funding. The Italianization of many foreign captured lands as a by-product of the war with Austria has run up a tab as well as that war not fully being paid for yet. Parliament is aware of Italy’s position and offers nothing much else to the Prime Minister other than the message: Money for the war is running out.


[Notes]

- Some may say this is ASB. Really? I would love to hear your reasoning but If Prussia in OTL kicked French ass all over the place then Italy (ITTL carbon copy, virtually), can do the same, to my opinion.

- If there is ANYthing I should add (to your opinion, or even take out), please say so. I mostly mean about the Pope and externally or things like that as I'm quite confident of the way the war is progressing.

Not too bad, maybe it lacks a bit of pathos. I have a feeling that the Italians should be able to do better when they break free of the Alps.

Major historical nitpick: when Savoy was transferred to France in 1860, it was declared neutral by a treaty which was signed by Italy, France an Switzerland. There should be no attack through Savoy.

Minor nitpicks:
- there are no Italian speakers in Savoy (matter of fact even the king and Cavour spoke better French than Italian)
- "Regia Marina" takes just one "g".

Note 1: I'm still looking forward to the landing in western Algeria and the investment of Oran.
Note 2: I understand why the pope calls the council in Avignon, but - given that the war has already started - I've to say that he likes to live dangerously
Note 3: since he's in Avignon, you might have taken the opportunity for a lil cameo, with Pius IX blessing the troops that are marching toward the Italian border: true sons of the Church, avengers of of the injury done to the throne of St. Peter.
Note 4: I recommend that the doctrine of the infallibility of the pope be promulgated pretty soon, otherwise it might be not promulgated at all, if you take my meaning :D A full excommunication of the king of Italy and his government done with all the pomp and the pathos that only the attendance of an (almost) full council of the church can provide, would be a nice coup de theatre.
 
I'd like to see Italy capture the Pope. I am certain the politicians would not want that headache to deal with! :)

ED: What do the Italy uniforms look like? Just OTL? Or more Prussian?
 
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It was already done by Napoleon, not to mention the "captivity in Avignon" of a few centuries earlier. It would not be a novel thing, and in any case I think that the order is not to attack or even shell Avignon.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I have a feeling that the Italians should be able to do better when they break free of the Alps.

Full agreement here. After all, this Italian army is shaped on the Prussian model.

Major historical nitpick: when Savoy was transferred to France in 1860, it was declared neutral by a treaty which was signed by Italy, France an Switzerland. There should be no attack through Savoy.

And what could Switlzerland ever do if France and Italy go to war ? With Prussia/Germany an ally of Italy ? Declare war to both ? With most of Switzerland potentially an irredentist target for German and Italian nationalism ? Talk about national suicide !!! No, FC was right to let that attack be, and Switzerland shall be quiet and pretend that such a treaty never happened, or make a mild symbolic diplomatic complaint, during and after the war. With Italy/Germany and France remaining hostile, its enforcement is going to be utterly unrealistic, and I expect the treaty shall be repealed after the war.

- there are no Italian speakers in Savoy (matter of fact even the king and Cavour spoke better French than Italian)
- "Regia Marina" takes just one "g".

Very true on both counts. But Italy still ought to reap some sympathy in Savoy, its cession was recent, and it had stayed under the Savoia for centuries. "Reggia Marina" sounds rather silly, like someone stuttering, in Italian. :p

Note 1: I'm still looking forward to the landing in western Algeria and the investment of Oran.

Probably it happens later, when the Italo-Prussians invest Paris, Lyon, and Marseilles, and the MN goes into disarray.

Note 2: I understand why the pope calls the council in Avignon, but - given that the war has already started - I've to say that he likes to live dangerously

Like many neutral observers, most likely the Pope and the Cardinals are expecting a quick French victory when they start the council. IOTL, Prussian victory was a surprise to many. Italian cobelligerance changes the equation, but many are still thinking of France as the best miliary power in Europe and of its 18th century-Napoleonic ability to fight a successful two-fronts war, and don't realize that Industrial Age logistics, mobilization, and weapons have changed the rules radically.

Note 3: since he's in Avignon, you might have taken the opportunity for a lil cameo, with Pius IX blessing the troops that are marching toward the Italian border: true sons of the Church, avengers of of the injury done to the throne of St. Peter.

Indeed. Pius IX never let an opportunity to be the pompous firebrand zealot windbag fall by the wayside.

Note 4: I recommend that the doctrine of the infallibility of the pope be promulgated pretty soon, otherwise it might be not promulgated at all, if you take my meaning :D A full excommunication of the king of Italy and his government done with all the pomp and the pathos that only the attendance of an (almost) full council of the church can provide, would be a nice coup de theatre.

Very true on both points. Obviously he can't excommunicate the King of Prussia and Bismarck, who are Lutheran heretics, and hence the equivalent of automatically self-excommunicated (or could he ? I miss the nuances of 19th century canon law, here), but he ought to rain down fiery, scathing condemnations on those "pestilential enemies of the True Church" north of the Alps, too. He was never stingy with raining lightning on everything he didn't fancy.

If the Pope wants to deploy all the Middle Age canonic artillery, he may even place Italy and Prussia/Germany under interdict, which denies Catholic lands the Mass and Sacraments. However, this move is going to rebound when the Old Catholic schism starts, as many among the lower clergy are going to resist the move for nationalist reasons and become sympathetic to the Old Catholics.
 
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Not too bad, maybe it lacks a bit of pathos. I have a feeling that the Italians should be able to do better when they break free of the Alps.

Major historical nitpick: when Savoy was transferred to France in 1860, it was declared neutral by a treaty which was signed by Italy, France an Switzerland. There should be no attack through Savoy.

Minor nitpicks:
- there are no Italian speakers in Savoy (matter of fact even the king and Cavour spoke better French than Italian)
- "Regia Marina" takes just one "g".

Note 1: I'm still looking forward to the landing in western Algeria and the investment of Oran.
Note 2: I understand why the pope calls the council in Avignon, but - given that the war has already started - I've to say that he likes to live dangerously
Note 3: since he's in Avignon, you might have taken the opportunity for a lil cameo, with Pius IX blessing the troops that are marching toward the Italian border: true sons of the Church, avengers of of the injury done to the throne of St. Peter.
Note 4: I recommend that the doctrine of the infallibility of the pope be promulgated pretty soon, otherwise it might be not promulgated at all, if you take my meaning :D A full excommunication of the king of Italy and his government done with all the pomp and the pathos that only the attendance of an (almost) full council of the church can provide, would be a nice coup de theatre.

Ugh, that was THE thing I was nervous about; Pathos :(:mad: I didn't know how to make a war sound fun. I don't have RoS writing skill :(

I'm not too worried about the neutrality thing, I agree on Eurofed here. Ugh, sorry bout that, what a shock, I never knew they didn't speak Italian in Savoy :eek: Also, that ReGia.... No comment (I feel so Canadian :eek:)

I'm aware about the avignon situation, don't worry, it will get taken care of, with Pathos!:D

I'd like to see Italy capture the Pope. I am certain the politicians would not want that headache to deal with! :)

ED: What do the Italy uniforms look like? Just OTL? Or more Prussian?

Haha, ITTL I wouldn't mind seeing that either! I say they're still the same. I can't see them taking uniforms as well?



(Sorry If I seem really uneducated in this and the above, again, its a hobby and I'm very proud of this TL, though, my expertise is colonial and Roman history)

It was already done by Napoleon, not to mention the "captivity in Avignon" of a few centuries earlier. It would not be a novel thing, and in any case I think that the order is not to attack or even shell Avignon.

Exactly, Italy does not want to take the Pope

Full agreement here. After all, this Italian army is shaped on the Prussian model.



And what could Switlzerland ever do if France and Italy go to war ? With Prussia/Germany an ally of Italy ? Declare war to both ? With most of Switzerland potentially an irredentist target for German and Italian nationalism ? Talk about national suicide !!! No, FC was right to let that attack be, and Switzerland shall be quiet and pretend that such a treaty never happened, or make a mild symbolic diplomatic complaint, during and after the war. With Italy/Germany and France remaining hostile, its enforcement is going to be utterly unrealistic, and I expect the treaty shall be repealed after the war.



Very true on both counts. But Italy still ought to reap some sympathy in Savoy, its cession was recent, and it had stayed under the Savoia for centuries. "Reggia Marina" sounds rather silly, like someone stuttering, in Italian. :p
Yes, thank you.

Probably it happens later, when the Italo-Prussians invest Paris, Lyon, and Marseilles, and the MN goes into disarray.


Exactly. I really planned it to be a European affair and I plan to have French naval superiority over the Italians as to keep it from getting too ASB.



Like many neutral observers, most likely the Pope and the Cardinals are expecting a quick French victory when they start the council. IOTL, Prussian victory was a surprise to many. Italian cobelligerance changes the equation, but many are still thinking of France as the best miliary power in Europe and of its 18th century-Napoleonic ability to fight a successful two-fronts war, and don't realize that Industrial Age logistics, mobilization, and weapons have changed the rules radically.



Indeed. Pius IX never let an opportunity to be the pompous firebrand zealot windbag fall by the wayside.



Very true on both points. Obviously he can't excommunicate the King of Prussia and Bismarck, who are Lutheran heretics, and hence the equivalent of automatically self-excommunicated (or could he ? I miss the nuances of 19th century canon law, here), but he ought to rain down fiery, scathing condemnations on those "pestilential enemies of the True Church" north of the Alps, too. He was never stingy with raining lightning on everything he didn't fancy.

If the Pope wants to deploy all the Middle Age canonic artillery, he may even place Italy and Prussia/Germany under interdict, which denies Catholic lands the Mass and Sacraments. However, this move is going to rebound when the Old Catholic schism starts, as many among the lower clergy are going to resist the move for nationalist reasons and become sympathetic to the Old Catholics.



Ugh, thats why I don't like this old Catholic stuff, its complicated.
 
Ok, I'm not gonna say anything about Pathos but I think a let down writer is a bad writer so on a good note let me say that the TL is really shaping up Italy as a power and this war part has been good play-by-play.

If Italy does not attack Algeria does that still mean they can ask for it on the peace table as proposed earlier in this TL? Like if it has non of Algeria under its physical control?
 

Eurofed

Banned
Ugh, that was THE thing I was nervous about; Pathos :(:mad: I didn't know how to make a war sound fun. I don't have RoS writing skill :(

Don't worry, it is shaping nicely so far. Every one of us has his own writing style.

I'm not too worried about the neutrality thing, I agree on Eurofed here.

Thanks. :D You might give a cursory coverage of the issue in next updates, e.g. to tell that Switzerland agrees to have the Savoy neutrality treaty repealed, in exchange for minor territorial gains from defeated France (nothing radical, which would disrupt the multi-ethnic balance of the confederation, but some border tweaks here and there in Berne's favor).

Ugh, sorry bout that, what a shock, I never knew they didn't speak Italian in Savoy :eek:

The situation of Savoy vs. France and Italy was... complex. Although it was French-speaking (differently from Nice, which was speaking an Italian dialect), it had enjoyed a centuries-long political association with the Savoia principate, so it had cultural ties to both sides.

Also, that ReGia.... No comment (I feel so Canadian :eek:)

Don't worry. :)

I'm aware about the avignon situation, don't worry, it will get taken care of, with Pathos!:D

Perhaps hurried evacuation of the Avignon Council (maybe to Spain ?) soon after it proclaims Papal Infallibility, as the Prusso-Italians advance but "neglect" to press their offensive in time to capture the Pope and Bishops, as they don't want the political embarassment of such prisoners (say they got a clue from Napoleon I and don't want to turn a prisoner Pope into a martyr) ? ;)

Exactly. I really planned it to be a European affair and I plan to have French naval superiority over the Italians as to keep it from getting too ASB.

This is wholly reasonable. However, later in the war, with the republican revolution, the siege of Paris, Lyon, and Marseilles, the first stirrings of the Commune (although it fully explodes only after the armistice), and the occupation of northern-eastern France, we may expect the Marine Nationale to fall into disarray (with the capture of Toulon, and the siege of Marseilles, they lose their main ports in the Mediterranean), so the Italians may become more daring.

Ugh, thats why I don't like this old Catholic stuff, its complicated.

It seems complicated, but it is worthwhile, since it significatively influences socio-political development of Italy-Germany in a positive Britain-like way. It also yields a nifty Cold War ideological dimension to the coming nationalist-imperialist power struggle between the Anglo-Italo-German bloc and the Franco-Ispano-Russian one.

Picture it this way: Catholicism in Italy, Germany, their clients (e.g. Netherlands and Hungary) and politically sympathetic lands (British Empire, America) undergoes a second Reformation towards a quasi-Anglican liberal, episcopal, national Christianity (doctrinary differences between Old Catholics and Anglicans-Episcopalians soon become neglegible and lead to full ecumenical reconciliation), whileas in France, Spain, Ireland, and Poland it entrenches into a hyper-reactionary Church that is one-half Counter-Reformation amped-up, one-half proto-fascism. Areas like Belgium, Portugal, and South America become mixed and an ideological battleground.

The liberal evolution of Old Catholicism provides Italy and Germany with a vehicle for the political and social organization of the masses which is neither Marxist socialism nor reactionary Catholicism, and this eases the evolution of the political system towards a British-style moderate liberal-conservative constitutional monarchy. Moreover, it also paves the way to greater political sympathy between the Italo-German bloc and the Anglo powers (although it also causes greater Anglo-Irish antagonism).
 
It seems complicated, but it is worthwhile, since it significatively influences socio-political development of Italy-Germany in a positive Britain-like way. It also yields a nifty Cold War ideological dimension to the coming nationalist-imperialist power struggle between the Anglo-Italo-German bloc and the Franco-Ispano-Russian one.

Picture it this way: Catholicism in Italy, Germany, their clients (e.g. Netherlands and Hungary) and politically sympathetic lands (British Empire, America) undergoes a second Reformation towards a quasi-Anglican liberal, episcopal, national Christianity (doctrinary differences between Old Catholics and Anglicans-Episcopalians soon become neglegible and lead to full ecumenical reconciliation), whileas in France, Spain, Ireland, and Poland it entrenches into a hyper-reactionary Church that is one-half Counter-Reformation amped-up, one-half proto-fascism. Areas like Belgium, Portugal, and South America become mixed and an ideological battleground.

The liberal evolution of Old Catholicism provides Italy and Germany with a vehicle for the political and social organization of the masses which is neither Marxist socialism nor reactionary Catholicism, and this eases the evolution of the political system towards a British-style moderate liberal-conservative constitutional monarchy. Moreover, it also paves the way to greater political sympathy between the Italo-German bloc and the Anglo powers (although it also causes greater Anglo-Irish antagonism).


Yes, I can see it worthwhile, thats the thing! I want to have it shape up the way yourself and LK have it pictured to! It would greatly increase the appeal of this TL and add a complicated and intense background to this! However, its my writing and especially knowledge on this issue that that I worry about. On this matter I go on EXACTLY what you guys post :S

This is discouraging but I know I can count on you guys for great explanations and therefore I continue to progress with it. Now let me get this straight: Papal infallibility passed in Avignon, Pope gives the finger to Italy and some mean words to Lutheran Bismarck, then... Bismark starts the Kulturkampf? Italy does the same?
 
Yes, I can see it worthwhile, thats the thing! I want to have it shape up the way yourself and LK have it pictured to! It would greatly increase the appeal of this TL and add a complicated and intense background to this! However, its my writing and especially knowledge on this issue that that I worry about. On this matter I go on EXACTLY what you guys post :S

This is discouraging but I know I can count on you guys for great explanations and therefore I continue to progress with it. Now let me get this straight: Papal infallibility passed in Avignon, Pope gives the finger to Italy and some mean words to Lutheran Bismarck, then... Bismark starts the Kulturkampf? Italy does the same?

IMHO the Old-Catholic schism is worthwhile because it might (actually it will :D) result into a better interaction between catholics and modern times (which has not always happened IOTL: actually I should say it did not happen, given the many examples to support my statement. The catholic church (with obvious exceptions) fought a rearguard battle, trying to oppose the rising tide of modernism, and obviously failing).

I'm not saying the what's shaping up ITTL is the perfect solution: it might be argued that it is another version of the established-church scenario. However we're not in the Reformation time and there has been a significant social progress. Which means that an "established church" will not benefit too much by its status, and an efective (even if not formal) separation between state and church will be in place (or at least will be more evident than it was IOTL in catholic states).

The kulturkampf is starting in Germany, btw. And as soon as a German empire is formed (which will happen after Sedan) the new empire ill have to deal with the problem of a protestant Northern Germany merging with a Catholic south.
Which means that an accomodation will have to be found. IOTL Bismarck started with the kulturkampf and ended up with a concordat. ITTL I guess it will be different, since there is the wild card of the Old-catholics to play.
The difference will be even more significant in Italy, where IOTL the occupation of Rome created a very real breach between state and church, effectively taking out the majority of the catholics from the political scene for a long time, with IMHO very negative results. IOTL there is a real chance to build up a national (and much more democratic) church, which (atl east at the beginning) will have the same dogmas as the "popist" catholic church, with a single exception: instead of being a church dominated by its center - the college of cardinals, the congregations and the pope - it will become a much more democratic, grass-root church, where the decision power is ultimately in the ends of the bishops as representative of their dioceses. I do believe it's a major change, and for the good.

Don't worry too much about my nitpicks: while I do not agree with you or Eurofed (the treaty for the neutralization of Savoy was a serious one), in the end history is witten by the victors. The other nitpicks are really minor ones.
I do still recommend to have the infallibility of the pope proclaimed and Italy exommunicated, since I feel that this path is in ultimate analysis what will differentiate this TL. Don't feel too bad: there might be a hope of reconciliation in the future, but for now the catholic church has to split. Blame the blind gods for that, blame the exigencies of narrativium or blame me for that, if it makes you feel better. :D
 

Eurofed

Banned
Yes, I can see it worthwhile, thats the thing! I want to have it shape up the way yourself and LK have it pictured to! It would greatly increase the appeal of this TL and add a complicated and intense background to this! However, its my writing and especially knowledge on this issue that that I worry about. On this matter I go on EXACTLY what you guys post :S

This is discouraging but I know I can count on you guys for great explanations and therefore I continue to progress with it. Now let me get this straight: Papal infallibility passed in Avignon, Pope gives the finger to Italy and some mean words to Lutheran Bismarck, then... Bismark starts the Kulturkampf? Italy does the same?

Ok, about the way for the Catholic split to unfold, I would defer to LK's expertise since he has the greatest knowledge of the issues implied, but here's my tentative summary description of the events:

The Pope in Council declares the dogma of Papal infallibility, excommunicates the King and government of Italy, issues a scathing condemnation of the Prussian/German King and government, calls on Catholic powers to fight Italy and Prussia/Germany, and on the populace of both powers to rebel against their governments.

As a reaction, Bismarck and diCastagna implement strong repression of the political activities of the pro-Papal clergy and laity supporters. Police repression, seizure of assets, government control on clergy activities. Beside repression, which also has its effect, they appeal to national-patriotic and liberal sentiment to resist an obscurantist threat to the security and unity of Italy and Prussia/Germany and condamn the Pope and their supporters as a treacherous fifth-column of France. The appeal to nationalism, liberalism, "state security", and basic patriotism in wartime finds strong support among the middle-classes, the landed-bureaucratic elites, and the masses, nullifyng to a great degree the impact of Papal and Church authority. Even among the lower clergy, the call to nationalism and patriotism has its effect. In TTL Germany, this may still be called "Kulturkampf", as per OTL. In Italy, OTL anti-clerical policy never got a proper name, but I think that ITTL a similar Italian label would be warranted, given the scope of the change. Maybe "Lotta per la Civiltà ("Fight for Civilization"). Probably something more sounding more epic and poetic may be concocted; I suggest to take inspiration in the early anti-clerical poetry of Giosuè Carducci (e.g. His "Hymn to Satan").

In the meanwhile, the very controversial proclamation of papal infallibility has its strong backlash throughout the Church. Many among the Bishops and the lower clergy mightly object to what they regard as a tyrannical and dangerous heretic doctrine. The opposition is mainly centered in Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Switzerland, Italy, Hungary, England, and the United States. Because of various reasons peculiar to TTL (anti-Papal nationalism in Germany and Italy; opposition to a more blatantly than OTL theocratic Papal policy in other countries; strong support by Bismarck and diCastagna and sympathy by British, Dutch, and American governments and public opinion), the Old Catholic movement quickly achieves "critical mass" to gain the allegiance of the majority among the Catholic laity, the lower clergy, and the Bishops in several countries. In Germany, Italy, and Austria especially, the Old Catholic movement and "national" resistance to the Pope soon mix and become one and the same.

A "Second Western Schism" takes place, with Catholicism dividing among two rival Churches: Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Switzerland, Britain, and the United States give allegiance to the OC; France, Spain, Ireland, and Poland to the Pope (France because its national cause is explictly supported by the Pope, Spain out of conservativism, Ireland out of opposition to pro-OC Britain, and Poland because of Tsarist enforcement); Belgium, Portugal, Austria-Hungary, and South America become ideological battlegrounds (in Latin America, some states support the OC, others the Pope). However in Austria-Hungary, the OC movement comes to be identified with liberalism and nationalism, and Papal Catholicism with reaction, centralism, and dynastic loyalty, which causes the OC to gradually gain the upper hand and increases domestic conflicts, hastening the Habsburg Empire's downfall.

I hope these suggestions may help you enough to develop the Schism angle for the TL.
 
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Don't worry too much about my nitpicks: while I do not agree with you or Eurofed (the treaty for the neutralization of Savoy was a serious one), in the end history is witten by the victors. The other nitpicks are really minor ones.
I do still recommend to have the infallibility of the pope proclaimed and Italy exommunicated, since I feel that this path is in ultimate analysis what will differentiate this TL. Don't feel too bad: there might be a hope of reconciliation in the future, but for now the catholic church has to split. Blame the blind gods for that, blame the exigencies of narrativium or blame me for that, if it makes you feel better. :D

Haha, don't worry. I'm not against the idea anymore remember? I'm all for it i just hope I can pull it off!:p

Ok, about the way for the Catholic split to unfold, I would defer to LK's expertise since he has the greatest knowledge of the issues implied, but here's my tentative summary description of the events:

The Pope in Council declares the dogma of Papal infallibility, excommunicates the King and government of Italy, issues a scathing condemnation of the Prussian/German King and government, calls on Catholic powers to fight Italy and Prussia/Germany, and on the populace of both powers to rebel against their governments.

As a reaction, Bismarck and diCastagna implement strong repression of the political activities of the pro-Papal clergy and laity supporters. Police repression, seizure of assets, government control on clergy activities. Beside repression, which also has its effect, they appeal to national-patriotic and liberal sentiment to resist an obscurantist threat to the security and unity of Italy and Prussia/Germany and condamn the Pope and their supporters as a treacherous fifth-column of France. The appeal to nationalism, liberalism, "state security", and basic patriotism in wartime finds strong support among the middle-classes, the landed-bureaucratic elites, and the masses, nullifyng to a great degree the impact of Papal and Church authority. Even among the lower clergy, the call to nationalism and patriotism has its effect. In TTL Germany, this may still be called "Kulturkampf", as per OTL. In Italy, OTL anti-clerical policy never got a proper name, but I think that ITTL a similar Italian label would be warranted, given the scope of the change. Maybe "Lotta per la Civiltà ("Fight for Civilization"). Probably something more sounding more epic and poetic may be concocted; I suggest to take inspiration in the early anti-clerical poetry of Giosuè Carducci (e.g. His "Hymn to Satan").

In the meanwhile, the very controversial proclamation of papal infallibility has its strong backlash throughout the Church. Many among the Bishops and the lower clergy mightly object to what they regard as a tyrannical and dangerous heretic doctrine. The opposition is mainly centered in Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Switzerland, Italy, Hungary, England, and the United States. Because of various reasons peculiar to TTL (anti-Papal nationalism in Germany and Italy; opposition to a more blatantly than OTL theocratic Papal policy in other countries; strong support by Bismarck and diCastagna and sympathy by British, Dutch, and American governments and public opinion), the Old Catholic movement quickly achieves "critical mass" to gain the allegiance of the majority among the Catholic laity, the lower clergy, and the Bishops in several countries. In Germany, Italy, and Austria especially, the Old Catholic movement and "national" resistance to the Pope soon mix and become one and the same.

A "Second Western Schism" takes place, with Catholicism dividing among two rival Churches: Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Switzerland, Britain, and the United States give allegiance to the OC; France, Spain, Ireland, and Poland to the Pope (France because its national cause is explictly supported by the Pope, Spain out of conservativism, Ireland out of opposition to pro-OC Britain, and Poland because of Tsarist enforcement); Belgium, Portugal, Austria-Hungary, and South America become ideological battlegrounds (in Latin America, some states support the OC, others the Pope). However in Austria-Hungary, the OC movement comes to be identified with liberalism and nationalism, and Papal Catholicism with reaction, centralism, and dynastic loyalty, which causes the OC to gradually gain the upper hand and increases domestic conflicts, hastening the Habsburg Empire's downfall.

I hope these suggestions may help you enough to develop the Schism angle for the TL.

Yes, they very much do, good summation of ideas. Thank you both!
 
Why would the US care about it enough to give allegiance to any one side? You're right that sympathies would lie that way, but it's not like the US is much of an international player at this time. They are not going to care much what is going on all the way over in Europe. I suppose it's possible that some anti-Irish stuff might go on if Irish-Americans go full on papal support and that might prevent the Irish from being seen as white for longer.
 
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