Italy, a Destiny Fulfilled

Franciscus Caesar

Cornelius said:
You are spending too much. Most of the your projects are hideously expensive. And Italy wasn't a rich nation at all.
As for the foreign investments, who exactly is going to invest so much in Italy? There aren't large amount of natural resources to exploit.
Besides a protezionistic policy could help the fledging italian industry. On the other hand you have also a large public debt to adress... not an easy choice...
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I was thinking an Italo-Prussia foreign investment exchange, to some degree. be it in stocks and bonds, Italian companies, etc.? Any thing you can suggest we have Italy do to make money? and do you mean protectionist policy?

Also, what natural resources does the south have that we can exploit? I heard steel is one?
 

Cornelius

I was thinking an Italo-Prussia foreign investment exchange, to some degree. be it in stocks and bonds, Italian companies, etc.?
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Prussia in those years had his own problems. Maybe France or Great Britain...

A protectionist policy helps your industry, but on the long run damages everything else. The policy followed by the right after unification, on the other hand, wasn't completely wrong, but stunted the industrialization...

In the end I would have probably chosen a "light protectionist" model and keep taxes low, trying to save money wherever is possible.
My first choice would be cutting the military expenses, but with the roman question open and Austria still strong, this option is out.
As to raise money, you could always seize all the church possessions when Italy conquers the Papal states...not really realistic, I know, but I can't stand the catholic church :D
 

Franciscus Caesar

Cornelius said:
Prussia in those years had his own problems. Maybe France or Great Britain...

A protectionist policy helps your industry, but on the long run damages everything else. The policy followed by the right after unification, on the other hand, wasn't completely wrong, but stunted the industrialization...

In the end I would have probably chosen a "light protectionist" model and keep taxes low, trying to save money wherever is possible.
My first choice would be cutting the military expenses, but with the roman question open and Austria still strong, this option is out.
As to raise money, you could always seize all the church possessions when Italy conquers the Papal states...not really realistic, I know, but I can't stand the catholic church :D
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hmm, ok so what should i do to get economic investment from Britain. What do they want in return (besides returns on their $)?

Also, why is it not realistic to split up church lands? Sounds like a great Idea for capital (Though I will feel bad taking away the popes land:()!

And why can't you stand it? In your explanation (If you choose to answer it), I can probably get something good out of it and use it :)!
 

Supermanboy

Cornelius said:
As to raise money, you could always seize all the church possessions when Italy conquers the Papal states...not really realistic, I know, but I can't stand the catholic church :D
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I think the Popes might be angry about that and ask other Catholic countries for help. This is a wank though and (from what i gather) those things can be edited out for the good of the TL:)
 

The Sandman

Banned
Sulfur is a good option for the Italians. Coal as well, in the north. Viticulture is always an option in the south, along with other tropical and semitropical agriculture. Sericulture too; Italian factories spinning Italian silk into cloth.

Italy could also try to position itself around pure manufacturing; import raw materials, export finished goods. An alliance with the Ottomans would help by opening up Ottoman resources to Italian industry, and Italian manpower to the Ottomans. Instead of heading to America, Italians either stay in Italy to work the factories or head to the Ottomans to help work the resources. Especially in places like the Sudan, Egypt, Libya and so forth, where Italian help would give the Ottomans a much-needed boost in loyal manpower to control sparsely-settled regions.

Don't forget about tourism as well. Italy is well-positioned to take advantage of both the dense European rail net and its cultural heritage to attract members of the budding middle class to take a holiday on the peninsula.

And Italy might especially want to promote the establishment of world-class research universities. If they're going to be getting closer to Prussia/Germany, then they could try to attract some of the German chemists and philosophers, the French painters, the British engineers, and other members of the continental intelligentsia to spend time mingling in Italian academies, training the new generation of Italian inventors and thinkers.
 

Franciscus Caesar

The Sandman said:
Sulfur is a good option for the Italians. Coal as well, in the north. Viticulture is always an option in the south, along with other tropical and semitropical agriculture. Sericulture too; Italian factories spinning Italian silk into cloth.

Italy could also try to position itself around pure manufacturing; import raw materials, export finished goods. An alliance with the Ottomans would help by opening up Ottoman resources to Italian industry, and Italian manpower to the Ottomans. Instead of heading to America, Italians either stay in Italy to work the factories or head to the Ottomans to help work the resources. Especially in places like the Sudan, Egypt, Libya and so forth, where Italian help would give the Ottomans a much-needed boost in loyal manpower to control sparsely-settled regions.

Don't forget about tourism as well. Italy is well-positioned to take advantage of both the dense European rail net and its cultural heritage to attract members of the budding middle class to take a holiday on the peninsula.

And Italy might especially want to promote the establishment of world-class research universities. If they're going to be getting closer to Prussia/Germany, then they could try to attract some of the German chemists and philosophers, the French painters, the British engineers, and other members of the continental intelligentsia to spend time mingling in Italian academies, training the new generation of Italian inventors and thinkers.
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excellent advice, especially the resource and tourism part! however, the Ottoman part... Unless i'm wrong, Italy will soon be at war with the ottomans and i dont want Italian manpower to be in the Ottoman empire. Glad to see your still entrenched in this TL:)
 

The Sandman

Banned
Franciscus Caesar said:
excellent advice, especially the resource and tourism part! however, the Ottoman part... Unless i'm wrong, Italy will soon be at war with the ottomans and i dont want Italian manpower to be in the Ottoman empire. Glad to see your still entrenched in this TL:)
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I suppose I'm pushing the idea that a truly forward-thinking Italian leader in the 1860s and '70s would consider the Ottoman Empire more useful as an ally against Austria and as a market for Italian manufactured goods than as an angry and weakened opponent.

Especially since Italy doesn't have that many choices for allies at this point; the Austrians still have quite a bit of land the Italians want, the French are scheduled to curbstomped by the Prussians (and I don't see anything to derail that), the Russians are going to look at a liberalizing Italy with as much disgust and antagonism as they looked at every other liberal political or social movement between the Congress of Vienna and WWI, and the British would see a strong Italy as an annoyance and potential threat in the Mediterranean.

And the Italian manpower going to the Ottomans is mainly the people who emigrated to the US in OTL. In TTL, the Italians are encouraging potential emigrants to head to those bits of the Ottoman Empire where Italy has commercial interests in the hopes that they don't completely lose the productivity of all of those emigrees.
 

Franciscus Caesar

The Sandman said:
I suppose I'm pushing the idea that a truly forward-thinking Italian leader in the 1860s and '70s would consider the Ottoman Empire more useful as an ally against Austria and as a market for Italian manufactured goods than as an angry and weakened opponent.

Especially since Italy doesn't have that many choices for allies at this point; the Austrians still have quite a bit of land the Italians want, the French are scheduled to curbstomped by the Prussians (and I don't see anything to derail that), the Russians are going to look at a liberalizing Italy with as much disgust and antagonism as they looked at every other liberal political or social movement between the Congress of Vienna and WWI, and the British would see a strong Italy as an annoyance and potential threat in the Mediterranean.

And the Italian manpower going to the Ottomans is mainly the people who emigrated to the US in OTL. In TTL, the Italians are encouraging potential emigrants to head to those bits of the Ottoman Empire where Italy has commercial interests in the hopes that they don't completely lose the productivity of all of those emigrees.
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Interesting. I'm thinking I can have a seriously messed up plan for the Ottomans. I would, however, have to consult my sources on this). Heres a taste: Wherever Italy has Italian Minorities set up, they can do the same thing later to the ottomans as they do to the Austrians (for the irredente land). However, I believe the ottomans were weak at this time?
 

Supermanboy

I think that If Italy manages to have their army mimic the Prussian army as you say will happen, And, considering the way the Austro-Prussian war turned out in OTL, (which in the realest case was not bad for Italy. They did get Veneto even if it is due to the Prussians) Italy does not need the ottomans as an ally. What are the Ottomans going to do?
 

DuQuense

Italy does not need the ottomans as an ally. What are the Ottomans going to do?
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At this time the Ottomans still control the Southern Balkans. If Italy wants to control the north end [Dalmatia] Having the Ottomans as Allies will help.
 

The Sandman

Banned
Franciscus Caesar said:
Interesting. I'm thinking I can have a seriously messed up plan for the Ottomans. I would, however, have to consult my sources on this). Heres a taste: Wherever Italy has Italian Minorities set up, they can do the same thing later to the ottomans as they do to the Austrians (for the irredente land). However, I believe the ottomans were weak at this time?
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Why bother, though? The whole point of the plan is that it's much more beneficial if the Italians don't have to administer the land themselves. If you want to, think of Libya, Sudan, Eritrea and Somalia as joint Italo-Ottoman colonies, with Ottomans providing administration and local knowledge and the Italians providing manpower.

And you can ask AHP, but the Ottomans weren't doing too badly until the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78 cost them Bulgaria, the Caucasus, and basically the entire Ottoman army. And even then, they still managed to hold on through constant foreign attack until WWI finally wrecked them. Well, outside of Turkey proper; the Turkish Republic is basically the Ottoman government with more modern procedures/outlook and the Sultanate filed off.
 

Franciscus Caesar

The Sandman said:
Why bother, though? The whole point of the plan is that it's much more beneficial if the Italians don't have to administer the land themselves. If you want to, think of Libya, Sudan, Eritrea and Somalia as joint Italo-Ottoman colonies, with Ottomans providing administration and local knowledge and the Italians providing manpower.

And you can ask AHP, but the Ottomans weren't doing too badly until the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78 cost them Bulgaria, the Caucasus, and basically the entire Ottoman army. And even then, they still managed to hold on through constant foreign attack until WWI finally wrecked them. Well, outside of Turkey proper; the Turkish Republic is basically the Ottoman government with more modern procedures/outlook and the Sultanate filed off.
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maybe. I'm still thinking about Italy grabbing a piece of the Pie in the Russo-Turkish war, Maybe
 
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