If We Were Living In An Eastern World
- Thread starter metallidude
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A long-standing member of the forum, who is very knowledgable on Chinese culture.
What is the "eastern world" in this case?
You could make an argument that the under-30 generations in the US have grown up on Nintendo, Playstation, Anime, and many are speaking Japanese (Especially on the West Coast and in the South). Thus, despite the low birth rate in Japan, our youth are certainly influenced by the Eastern world.
If you mean a more pervasive cultural influence, you could have the trend of Japanese business takeovers of US interests from the 1980s continue a la Rising Sun by Michael Creighton, but to get anything more than that I think you might need to have Japan do much better in the Pacific War and have us adopt the traits of a victorious opposition, which in and of itself would need a major ATL timeline.
You could make an argument that the under-30 generations in the US have grown up on Nintendo, Playstation, Anime, and many are speaking Japanese (Especially on the West Coast and in the South). Thus, despite the low birth rate in Japan, our youth are certainly influenced by the Eastern world.
If you mean a more pervasive cultural influence, you could have the trend of Japanese business takeovers of US interests from the 1980s continue a la Rising Sun by Michael Creighton, but to get anything more than that I think you might need to have Japan do much better in the Pacific War and have us adopt the traits of a victorious opposition, which in and of itself would need a major ATL timeline.
Again, Japanese adaptations of technologies of Western origin.
This still requires a Western-dominated world for Japan to "take over", and the cultural result wouldn't be all that different from what we have now. The WI proposed in the OP was instead a world where the West never rose up to dominate anything in the first place, and it was instead the East Asian nations that became the most dominant cultures. In such a world, there wouldn't even be a US to have interests to take over.
So by "eastern world" we're talking about a world where the government, culture, and technology all have Eastern roots?
Ah, then the best bets IMO are likely to have the Tang win at the Talas River or have the Song or Ming colonize much of northern Asia as a base to eventually overrun Russia and perhaps Europe in the 18th century. For real fun have Toyotomi win against Korea in 1590s, overrun the Philippines and other areas then slowly expand in Eastern Asia while keeping an open mind, when the Qing face harder times then let the Japanese overrun the Chinese lands and establish their capital at Beijing before trying to overrun Russia and much of the rest of Asia.
Thank You Cicero, yes, exactly what I mean.. It is still taking Western concepts of civilization and tech.
I am talking about a scenario where Europe NEVER rose to global prominence culturally, militarily, economically etc.
Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto ...
That Aside, I Think The Simplest POD is The Retreat from The Sea During The Ming Period ...
If The Chinese had Colonized Eastward as Aggressively as Westward, they May Have Explored The Americas BEFORE Europeans did, Columbus himself May Very Well Have Arrived at an "Indian" Port!
I agree. If the Ming had increased the voyages instead of cutting them off, they could easily have come to dominate far-flung regions of the world. Butterflies from that may have prompted the Koreans and Japanese to eventually do the same thing, so that instead of having just a "Chinese" world, we could have a more generally "Asian" world.
And to cripple the West even further so that there's no hope of competition from almost-as-powerful European nations, I think a Carthaginian victory in the Third Punic War could have done it. If the Carthaginians ITTL destroyed the Romans as thoroughly as the Romans did the Carthaginians IOTL, then Europe would probably not have seen another powerful civilizing influence, and the continent would still be full of largely tribal societies by the time the Ming conquerors (or whoever) sailed in.
The effects of the non existence of the Roman Empire and thus Latin civilisation on Nomadic migrations will be incalculable , and in turn will affect Nomadic Migrations into China significantly . Ming is very unlikely to be the name of the dynasty which colonizes Europe.Ofcourse , there's still the matter of Christanity and Greek Civilisation to be dealt with .
The Marcohistorical effects of a Carthaginain Victory is incalculable , in the same manner butterflying away Genghis Khan , or the American Revolution , or the Reformation , or Marzikent , or Alexander the Great , or Islam ...the list of marochistorical paths that could result from this events goes on and on .
Speaking of which , has anyone created a TL where the survival of a certain random person in childhood who in OTL died before adulthood twists history into unrecognition within a century of the POD?It's highly plausible IMO.
Sounds Like Hannibal, Gets Another Shot at Zama ...
Or are we Going to Go with The Ticinus Option ...
Scipio Africanus The Elder Can't Very Well Defeat Hasdrubal Barca if he's Killed While Defending his Father, Now Can he?
This thread reminds me of the book 'The Years of Rice and Salt' by Kim Stanley Robinson.. Anyone else read this book??
Susano
Banned
I'm not sure. All I know is that, as usual, India Doesn't Exist.
Hey, now, its difficult enough for us to comprehend ONE people above the billion mark. I mean - the dimensions of it all! We cant deal with having to accept theres soon to be another one - and both nearing our economical level, so we cant just ignore them, either. So, well just attempt to deny Indias existance. Makes it easier
Hey, now, its difficult enough for us to comprehend ONE people above the billion mark. I mean - the dimensions of it all! We cant deal with having to accept theres soon to be another one - and both nearing our economical level, so we cant just ignore them, either. So, well just attempt to deny Indias existance. Makes it easier
But India's population is already above the billion mark.
Susano
Banned
But India's population is already above the billion mark.
Eh, well, even worse. Only reinforces my argument
Very interesting ideas!
.I'd wonder how would technology look like. Would it be the same or would it take a very different shape??? Would there still be "cars", for example???
What stroke me about The years of rice and salt is that, even if a mayor Pod had taken place, ideas as "the rennaissance", "Galilean science", "atomic energy" (and even "feminism") seemed to appear anyhow, at more or less the same time as IOTL.
I don't think this would be the case. Modern science is not just something that evolved "naturally" from pre-modern science. It wasn't just the fruit of an "invention". It required a mayor paradigmn shift, which might or might not have happened in a non westernized world. But, in any case, it wouldn't probably have happened in the same timeframe than it did IOTL.
.I'd wonder how would technology look like. Would it be the same or would it take a very different shape??? Would there still be "cars", for example???
What stroke me about The years of rice and salt is that, even if a mayor Pod had taken place, ideas as "the rennaissance", "Galilean science", "atomic energy" (and even "feminism") seemed to appear anyhow, at more or less the same time as IOTL.
I don't think this would be the case. Modern science is not just something that evolved "naturally" from pre-modern science. It wasn't just the fruit of an "invention". It required a mayor paradigmn shift, which might or might not have happened in a non westernized world. But, in any case, it wouldn't probably have happened in the same timeframe than it did IOTL.