If We Were Living In An Eastern World

Faeelin

Banned
Thank you for being specific. You are so far the only one willing to get to the point rather than hide behind vague wording.

There are two seperate issues here. 1) How rich were the merchants compared with corrupt ministers? 2) How much influence could wealth buy?

The first is easier to quantify. In the time of Ming emperor Wanli, one tael of silver (roughly one Troy ounce) could buy two shi of rice, or 188.8kg. So how wealthy were these super rich Ming dynasty merchants? Well lets use an imprecise comparison with the modern American economic world. You could buy that much rice today on the cheap for $80. One hundred thousand taels of silver should have the market value of $8,000,000. Since "The richest may have had several hundreds of thousands (taels of silver)", it would mean they were perhaps worth $20 million dollars. Is this super rich? Certainly not by modern American standards. You're not even a player unless you have $50-100 million these days.

How rich then could a corrupt minister get? When Heshen was arrested his confescated property was valued at 1.1 Billion taels of silver. That's $88 billion dollars. As we can see, there is absolutely no comparison between a rich merchant and a corrupt minister.

Except these were typical merchants in the provinces, and you're taking statements about the value of Heshen at face
value, which, if true, would mean he was richer than the imperial treasury.

And if we are looking at merchants such as the Zheng family of the 17th century, who were rich enough to build their own military, then your argument looks even more dubious.

And since there were merchants who bought titles such as the equivalent of Marquis, we know that is wrong.

And I also find the idea of mapping Chinese currency onto modern America to get an equivalent very dubious, especially given your weird projection of the price of modern foodstuffs onto premodern China.

In fact, I will now ask where you're getting your info on Heshen, who you seem to hold up as a normal character, from.

(Ten bucks says it's that awful 1587: A Year of No Significance).
 
Except these were typical merchants in the provinces, and you're taking statements about the value of Heshen at face
value, which, if true, would mean he was richer than the imperial treasury.
You're making arguments against established historical facts. Heshen was by far the wealthiest man alive in his time. His fortune amounted to several times the annual government revenue. You will never find an example of a contemporary merchant who could come close to that. OTOH Cortez was possibly the wealthiest man in Spain, no comparison.

And if we are looking at merchants such as the Zheng family of the 17th century, who were rich enough to build their own military, then your argument looks even more dubious.
This is an unquantified anecdote. How big were their private armies? 10 men, 100 men, 1000? Were they just thugs with spears, or did they have cavalry, artillery? It did not require great wealth to build an army. Otherwise peasant rebellions would be impossible.

And since there were merchants who bought titles such as the equivalent of Marquis, we know that is wrong.
Who? Name some merchants who bought an equivalent title. Again you fail to understand the point I'm making. Certainly there were rich Chinese, and many did buy appointments (though none could compared to the Spaniards). But these people were universally villified by Chinese historians. They were not model citizens, they were not admired by later generations. In the Confucian world order, merchants were among the bottom rung of social hierarchy. The order was: officials, peasants, craftspeople, merchants.

And I also find the idea of mapping Chinese currency onto modern America to get an equivalent very dubious, especially given your weird projection of the price of modern foodstuffs onto premodern China.
Actually that's how historical prices are estimated, through the purchasing value of daily staple. While I'm not trying to be precise like Angus Maddison, the prices are in the ballpark, and is sufficient for our purposes. Feel free to use your own metric if you wish.

In fact, I will now ask where you're getting your info on Heshen, who you seem to hold up as a normal character, from.

(Ten bucks says it's that awful 1587: A Year of No Significance).
Heshen was the prime minister under Emperor Qianlong of the Qing dynasty. He was executed in the early 19th century for graft. His story would not appear in a book about the 16th century would it? If you know anything about Qing history you would be familiar with Heshen, his corruption case was legendary. When Emperor Jiaqing ordered his death, Heshen's assets were published on the emperor's orders. I can give you an itemized inventory if you like.

You can keep your ten bucks.
 
Last edited:

Faeelin

Banned
You've persuaded me. Zheng Chenggong actually led fifty men with sticks, China was actually governed by a communist emperor, and no one ever left the Empire.

Verily, I salute you.
 
Last edited:
Top